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View Full Version : 'Nanny state' ruling could spell the end of Scouting rough and tumble



CHRI5
12-10-2010, 08:32 AM
Just come across this in the DM.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1319746/Nanny-state-ruling-spell-end-Scouting-rough-tumble.html

Knock on effect?

Chris Lambert
12-10-2010, 08:33 AM
Just come across this in the DM.

It's probably rubbish then. Does it get a mention from any reputable news sources?

cbKernow
12-10-2010, 08:53 AM
is it wrong that I read that article and think "what a great game"!!?!?!

We play a similar game called the Shoe Game (see if you can guess what it involves). All the kids take off their shoes and put them in a pile, they leave the room and the leaders scatter them around the room, they turn the lights out and bring the kids back in, they then get x minutes to find their own shoes.

big chris
12-10-2010, 08:56 AM
i read it and i just thought that it seemed rather dangerous.

I'd have thought that smashed teeth and noses would ensue.

NO1
12-10-2010, 09:01 AM
I wonder if a risk assessment had been made?

cbKernow
12-10-2010, 09:29 AM
seems no more dangerous than running round the woods in the dark for a widegame.

risk assesment would suggest danger of collisions in the dark so move all furniture well out of the way and perhaps spread the wooden blocks out rather than one pile that will encourage searching for rather than fighting over the blocks

stockyscouts
12-10-2010, 09:38 AM
Not the Nanny state but the current litigation culture we seem to be developing.

You can always trust the Daily Fail to provide us with good quality news.

Walsallwizard
12-10-2010, 09:52 AM
I hardly think it will be the end of Scouting! But it does remind us that accidents can and do happen and that sadly we live in times where you get compensated even though a willing participant, and the compensation appears to be justified as the Scout incurred a permanent injury; that after all is what we are insured for.

Bushfella
12-10-2010, 10:06 AM
I must admit that since my son was knocked out and required stitches in his head, and another Scout lost his front teeth playing a very similar game I have never permitted such a game to be played again.

I got away with it once, allowing such a lifetime disfigurement to occur a second time would indeed be negligent.

nele
12-10-2010, 10:52 AM
We tend to have indoor games in the dark which don't require much running around. More stealth to find things without being heard.

I think wide games tend to have more space although there are still risks, and lots of falls etc occur. Each one needs risk assessing to try and minimize problems. The question is when do the risks outweigh the fun, challenge and adventure? We can't completely emiminate risk.

Apparently this injury took 6 years to spot? Maybe thats part of the reason for the settlement. We can't tell from what's said in the article.

CambridgeSkip
12-10-2010, 10:55 AM
Two Points

First is that those of you who follow me on twitter will know my opinions on the Daily Mail. An utterly vile paper full of innuendo, dishonesty, sexism, racism, homophobia, Islamophobia and down right nastiness. It has various agendas including “’elf and safety gawn mad guvner” and “wasn’t life better in our imaginary version of the 1950s.

I now work on the basis that every thing they print is nonsense until proven other wise. It makes life easier.

As for this game our cubs regularly play a version of this. Yes if the kids are daft it can be dangerous. However it’s risk assessed and the dangers of missing teeth and other injuries are minimised by sending in a few kids at a time and strict no running rule. Simple.

Of course if kids don’t follow the rules they run the risk of injury and if they are caught there are consequences. The same goes for swimming or archery or climbing or any of the million and one activities we do.

Mallah
12-10-2010, 10:59 AM
I'm all for accountability and assessing risk etc etc.... I just wonder how many people would bring such things against an organisation if they themselves were not likely to benefit from any financial punitive measure that was dealt out?

Kaawaterloo
12-10-2010, 11:00 AM
Yeah, that game looks really dangerous.

If we play anything like that then it's helmets, gloves and body suits to protect them for injury. I am also glad that the church decided to fit rubber walls and floors throughout so that even in the event of a fall then still can't get hurt.

The main problem is playing games in the dark, so what we'll do about it is to remove any activity where there is the slightest possibility of it being dark at any time. Could be a problem finding a venue for my next camp though.

I need a campsite that doesn't get dark, where there is no chance of anybody slipping, tripping or falling, and preferably where there is rubber throughout.

Luckily I have my own yellow and black warning tape.....

weefatbob
12-10-2010, 11:11 AM
First is that those of you who follow me on twitter will know my opinions on the Daily Mail. An utterly vile paper full of innuendo, dishonesty, sexism, racism, homophobia, Islamophobia and down right nastiness. It has various agendas including “’elf and safety gawn mad guvner” and “wasn’t life better in our imaginary version of the 1950s.

I now work on the basis that every thing they print is nonsense until proven other wise. It makes life easier.

Couldn't agree more. Literally, couldn't have worded my abhorrence for the Daily Mail in any better a way.

Tibsie
12-10-2010, 11:31 AM
Hmm, I might try that game with our lot!!

One of our favourites is the barricade game, a version of keeper of the keys, where the scouts build a huge barrier across the hall out of chairs and benches, turn out the lights and the other team have to cross the barrier in the dark (it's never totally dark), get the keys and make it back across to win.

shiftypete
12-10-2010, 11:55 AM
I'd love to know how cause and effect was proven in the case mentioned, given there was a 6 year gap between the incident and the diagnosis of a permanent injury supposedly caused by the incident.

Kastor
12-10-2010, 12:10 PM
One of the things in the Beaver training I did that always amused me (not sure if it's still there) was the scenario where there was a bunch of Beavers having a run round game on a patch of grass with a large tree in the middle of it. The scenario wanted you to say you would station a Leader by the tree to make sure the Beavers didn't run into it.

Luckily that example was treated with a fair bit of hilarity on our course but I don't think that was the intended response.

Howslo
12-10-2010, 12:19 PM
Actually, I'm sure that scenario appears on the Module 1 'Getting Started' DVD!

dmoorcroft
12-10-2010, 12:19 PM
Quite disgusting that the parents and the YP decided to sue the scout association.

Just think about everything that £7k could have bought! :-(

nele
12-10-2010, 12:43 PM
Actually, I'm sure that scenario appears on the Module 1 'Getting Started' DVD!

You are right, having shown this 3 times this month as part of our getting started training, I still find some of the scenarios amusing.

Using soft balls I get, having someone at the entrance to stop them going into the road; of course. Having someone watching where they can see everything also normal, but why should Beavers run into a very large and obvious tree? They weren't even running about very much, just passing balls in twos.

Gadgette
12-10-2010, 05:28 PM
I read this story in the Metro this morning, probably carried in numerous other papers as well (but hey I don't read other papers (apart from DM), so I wouldn't know!). It would be interesting to hear the SA's take on this for those of us who do play wide games in the dark.

Amazes me that there are several DM bashers on here who appear to have expert knowledge of the content of the DM, whilst profaning to absolutely hate it. How come? Surely you're closet readers, or how else would you have such indepth knowledge?! :rolleyes: Let's get real, there is drivel in most papers at one time or another. It just seems that most people on here have a preference for the DM......... The DM bashing is getting really old now and totally pointless.

RedCoat
12-10-2010, 05:36 PM
Come on, guys.

At least we now know that the Daily Mail hates Health and Safety more than they do Scouts! ;)

shiftypete
12-10-2010, 05:43 PM
Come on, guys.

At least we now know that the Daily Mail hates Health and Safety more than they do Scouts! ;)

That actually made me laugh out loud :)

CambridgeSkip
13-10-2010, 12:27 PM
The DM bashing is getting really old now and totally pointless.

Ruth I agree that this is not necessarily the right forum for Daily Mail bashing but I think there is a reason why the Mail tends to be picked out more than others.

All papers make stuff up to one extent or another however the Mail is one of the worst offenders. I personally consider them to be third only to the Express and The Sun on that count. However unlike those other two it is a paper taken frighteningly seriously be a frightening number of people. The reason being it is a brilliantly written and brilliantly put together publication. If it had the circulation of the Express or was just bought for page 3 and football like the Sun I would rant about it less as I could just consider it a joke.

Alas though it is far from a joke.

The Mail is, in my humble opinion, the antithesis of everything scouting stands for and deserves to be called to account for every lie, inaccuracy and prejudice that it spreads.

I'll save further rants on this subject for elsewhere as this is, after all, a scouting forum.

Bushfella
13-10-2010, 04:25 PM
Quite disgusting that the parents and the YP decided to sue the scout association.

Just think about everything that £7k could have bought! :-(

Been there, had that done to us.

Waverley GDB
13-10-2010, 06:49 PM
Come on, guys.

At least we now know that the Daily Mail hates Health and Safety more than they do Scouts! ;)

However, that still doesn't necessarily place us very high in their list.

As Society changes and the Lawyers see more opportunities for Fees this will get worse until the Judges, or Law Makers in Government, start to take a stand.

Recent comments from within the Coalition indicate that they may be moving this way. The sooner the better.

I recently had an injury at a Scout Activity Centre where the parents could easily have looked to blame someone and take some form of action. These parents are not backward at coming forward but take the view that they do not want to take from the SA. It that case we were lucky, it may not be the same if there is a next time!

aldamaster
13-10-2010, 07:00 PM
It just seems that most people on here have a preference for the DM......... The DM bashing is getting really old now and totally pointless.

Well for one, look at this fb group whoch genuinely shows all of the things the daily mail have claimed can cause caner- yes there is a link to every storey to prove it is true:

http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=&init=quick&tas=0.7552936451512169#!/group.php?gid=269512464297

They do have an obsession with making things up and taking incredibly right wing views on things! (I understand they are traditionally a right wing paper and there are always going to be people of that view but some of there stories are getting tiresome now...)

Tazmania
13-10-2010, 07:31 PM
what a load of whoiffle...

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The Following Was Added to the post within 60 minutes of posting the above
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THe mail makes VERY good firelighters, probably because of all the manure it contains... Wouldn't want me chips wrapped in it!

Baloo Doug
13-10-2010, 09:20 PM
I'd love to know how cause and effect was proven in the case mentioned, given there was a 6 year gap between the incident and the diagnosis of a permanent injury supposedly caused by the incident.

Same thing crossed my mind as well, what else has said ex Scout done that his parents don't know about that could have caused the same symptoms. I suspect it is a case of little "Johnny" hurt his shoulder at Scouts "X" years ago could that have caused this? Yes? I know what I'v seen this add on telly that says if you have had an injury that wasn't your fault you can get some money for it.

fitch
13-10-2010, 09:33 PM
we played this with a pile of 10ps or washers - known as "the 10p game" - wooden blocks is the risky bit for me in terms of impact ;o)

Mark Smith
14-10-2010, 01:37 PM
Come on, guys.

At least we now know that the Daily Mail hates Health and Safety more than they do Scouts! ;)

That lightened things up for me. I have to agree with alot of the views on the DM here though. I have had personal experiences of their so called 'reporting', and can only view them as scum of the first order...:smash:

Mallah
18-10-2010, 07:48 AM
This story might be to do with Lord Young's report which was published earlier this month.
More info here http://www.shponline.co.uk/news-content/full/lord-young-advocates-common-sense-competence-and-compensation-crackdown

Akela Paul
18-10-2010, 08:11 PM
Quite disgusting that the parents and the YP decided to sue the scout association.

Just think about everything that £7k could have bought! :-(

Ahh - But when every other TV advert; Newspaper advert; text message and person in the High Street asks "Have you had an injusry Sir?" it onlt take long for many parents to consider "What can we get out of this injury?"

For us as leaders, we need to follow the rules/best practices and try and minimise the issues.