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banderlog
30-03-2012, 09:22 AM
Re BBC Site
Girl scouts have a new choice of uniform following requests from scout members from the Muslim community.

The new, specially designed clothing range includes "hoodie" and T-shirt dresses, which are styled on a more modest design.

Both are knee-length, and include print graphics inspired by scout badges and the spirit of adventure.

Around 600 Muslim girls are expected to benefit, although the range is being made available to all scouts

So do Girl Scouts now have a Girl only uniform?

Chopwell's yeti
30-03-2012, 09:29 AM
My question would be is this new 'uniform' to replace the shirt which Scouts wear? I see it more as the casual Scouting look than anything else...

timrob39
30-03-2012, 09:33 AM
Looking at the pictures, it looks very casual compared to the other sections. I don't think it would look right once you have uniform badges on them....or have I missed the point entirely??

I think it's a good idea that Scouting has been working closely with religion and produced something suitable to wear. If they open it out to all girls, what would be the criteria for who should wear it? Only Muslim girls who have been such for all their lives or girls who have recently turned Muslim for no apparent reason other than to wear this uniform?

PaulArthurs
30-03-2012, 09:35 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17548263

Rubbish!!

Scout Shops Limited have simply launched yet another item of activity wear. There are no changes to uniform.

http://www.scouts.org.uk/news/482/new-clothing-range-launch-for-girls

khoomei
30-03-2012, 09:35 AM
No it's not a new uniform. It's 'casual wear'. A case of TSA sending out mis-information to the press.

See here (http://www.scouts.org.uk/news/482/new-clothing-range-launch-for-girls).

Chopwell's yeti
30-03-2012, 09:37 AM
Looking at the pictures, it looks very casual compared to the other sections. I don't think it would look right once you have uniform badges on them....or have I missed the point entirely??


This is what I thought, However looking on ScoutShops it claims that this is a casual uniform only when official uniform is not required. This is very misleading to what the news is saying.. http://shop.scouts.org.uk/p-5687-youths-i.aspx

Gooders
30-03-2012, 09:38 AM
According to scouts.org.uk (http://www.scouts.org.uk/news/482/new-clothing-range-launch-for-girls) this is a limited edition addition to the iScout range so I assume that it does not replace formal uniform.

Stephen

PaulArthurs
30-03-2012, 09:44 AM
POR has not changed; there is no new uniform.

Scout Shops Limited describe it as "handy when on camp. Itís great for wearing when official uniform is not required (http://shop.scouts.org.uk/p-5688-i.aspx)." At £30 each I suspect they're not expecting a rush of orders.

Tony Ransley
30-03-2012, 09:52 AM
Hi All

Seems the BBC has confused activity dress with uniform, don't know how that could have happened after all HQ isn't trying to undermine one in favour of the other is it ?

Y.I.S. Tony

jshirra
30-03-2012, 10:32 AM
Hi All

Seems the BBC has confused activity dress with uniform, don't know how that could have happened after all HQ isn't trying to undermine one in favour of the other is it ?

Y.I.S. TonyEasy mistake for a journalist to make - scouts launch new cloths - they wear uniforms...scouts launch new uniforms. Scouting is and as far as I'm aware will remain a uniformed organisation...


POR has not changed; there is no new uniform.

Scout Shops Limited describe it as "handy when on camp. It’s great for wearing when official uniform is not required (http://shop.scouts.org.uk/p-5688-i.aspx)." At £30 each I suspect they're not expecting a rush of orders.
I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few of these were sold actually...it seems to meet a need for the Muslim girls, but looking at them...a long hoodie looks like it would be very nice on camp to me! an extra, thicker layer over more of you!

Great piece of PR for us overall though!

Ceiron
30-03-2012, 11:17 AM
I just dont get it if honest.

I assumed it was mis reported and was just activity wear.

But even then i cant see the big deal other then free publicity.

Some organisations have designed official uniform to suit different needs be it religion etc.

This is just a long hoody?

Really does baffle me.

notgonehome
30-03-2012, 11:24 AM
When I was in Malaysia the Muslim girl scouts had the same uniform other than a headscarf as the Muslim boy scouts without any problems The Malay uniform was the same as the uk one other than the colour.
So also cannot see the point

ASLChris
30-03-2012, 12:21 PM
Heh. I saw the BBC article and Scout.org.uk news item this morning, and was just waiting for this thread to appear and the inevitable "they'retrying to replace uniform!!1!" and "what's the poitn of!!1!" posts.

Does it matter if we can "see the point" or not? It is serving an apparent desire for girls - Muslim or not - to have a longer dress-like i.SCOUT hoodie for casual Scouting-wear. It is clearly not replacing uniform, and is there to enable and encourage further diversity.

It is, simply, nothing more than an extension to the i.SCOUT range of non-uniform clothes. Where's the problem?

Mark Smith
30-03-2012, 12:41 PM
Unfortunately, it's not just the BBC reporting it wrongly - I've just read the same thing in the Telegraph saying it is a new uniform...

If both of these established news reporters are saying the same thing, then maybe TSA should be putting them right - or does it just sell TSA better in some areas (cynical head on).

Bushfella
30-03-2012, 02:31 PM
I read this and thought, here we go again, but thankfully not, it is just an option. I want to know though, when is the Druid style casual uniform coming? I mean, how much money can the SA squeeze out of the market? (or is that being over-cynical?)

ianw
30-03-2012, 02:41 PM
I read this and thought, here we go again, but thankfully not, it is just an option. I want to know though, when is the Druid style casual uniform coming?

It's black, it's got a hood, how much more druidy do you want it? You'll just have to get a large size ;)

Ian

giggles
30-03-2012, 02:41 PM
I was reading about this on the delightful Daily Mail website. :rolleyes: Some of the comments posted on there are "interesting" shall we say...

I just had another look on their website to find a link and the article has gone!!!

uptonscoutgroup
30-03-2012, 02:47 PM
Aamena Ismail, 12, a scout from London, said: "This dress hoodie is a fantastic idea. As a Muslim girl in scouting I feel more comfortable in it, but it's still practical and I can even wear it abseiling.

How do you wear something knee length abseiling?

Tony Ransley
30-03-2012, 02:51 PM
I read this and thought, here we go again, but thankfully not, it is just an option. I want to know though, when is the Druid style casual uniform coming? I mean, how much money can the SA squeeze out of the market? (or is that being over-cynical?)

No Ewan

Been over-cynical would be to suggest that uniform trousers with one leg pre rolled to the knee and apron ready attached would go very well with members of the CoC and commissioners.:bigsmiley

Y.I.S. Tony

big chris
30-03-2012, 02:58 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2122446/The-new-Scout-uniform-Muslim-girls.html

ianw
30-03-2012, 03:24 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2122446/The-new-Scout-uniform-Muslim-girls.html

I clicked on it, and sorted the comments by "best rated", sheesh, I guess I knew what to expect, but still, I was only cheered up when I got to the comment that included "Lord Baden-Powell will be turning in his grave."...and that's Daily-Mail-Scout-article-BINGO!

The Best Rated is this comment "Looks like integration has gone out the window then, along with Scouting tradition. Bending over backward to appease the minority, yet again, how typical."...but surely giving someone an option to wear something and allowing them to take part *is* integrating?

I was driving along yesterday and saw three lasses walking along together, from the local comp, who had a mufti day as it was the last day of term. One was in the tiniest shorts in the world and a t shirt, and another had a long dress long sleeves, and a head scarf. That's integration is it not? Not everyone conforming to "the british way" whatever that is.

Ian

big chris
30-03-2012, 03:26 PM
i believe that wearing this hoodie gives you cancer... and will definitely affect house prices.

marcush
30-03-2012, 03:37 PM
Why did I read the dail mail comment? :smash:

There's at least a good 10 page thread we could make out of the few I read.

Not keen you might as well just buy a normal hoody a few sizes to big, has the same affect.

CambridgeSkip
30-03-2012, 04:48 PM
What ASL Chris said.

My parents are dyed in the wool Daily Mail readers. I will be expecting comments from them about a Sharia Promise next week speak.

In all seriousness, I've said it more than once, if any youth organisation is upsetting the Mail and it's more rabid readers then they are doing something right.

Walsallwizard
30-03-2012, 04:56 PM
Can I get one in XXL?

lukescout
30-03-2012, 04:58 PM
Sky News have it pretty spot on http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16199122

Keith
30-03-2012, 05:03 PM
Can I get one in XXL?

No, you cant, but Angela can!

dasy2k1
30-03-2012, 09:38 PM
What ASL Chris said.
I will be expecting comments from them about a Sharia Promise next week speak.


Allready exists
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs391004.pdf



Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

CambridgeSkip
30-03-2012, 09:53 PM
I know. But what my parents mean by Sharia is some kind of fundamentalist stuff that in reality exists in the heads of a handful of extremists and not in main stream Islam.

Walsallwizard
30-03-2012, 09:54 PM
No, you cant, but Angela can!

Sexist pig!...:bigsmiley

Lister
30-03-2012, 10:01 PM
Casual uniform? sounds a big oxymoron type to me, surely the point of uniforms is that they are formal wear? or an i missing the point of that entirely?

And while we're at it, the whole "hoodie" thing, social has us believe that "hoodies" are associated with ABSOs, unruly yobs and such like so do we really want to have attire of that type? o_0

Tony Ransley
30-03-2012, 10:02 PM
I know. But what my parents mean by Sharia is some kind of fundamentalist stuff that in reality exists in the heads of a handful of extremists.

You mean like discriminating against atheists that kind of thing;)

Lister
30-03-2012, 10:04 PM
Allready exists
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs391004.pdf
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

Would be nice to have phonetically, don't know about all of you but i can't read Arabic that well.....

scallywag
30-03-2012, 10:16 PM
Oh come on all.We are heading for a casual repalcement to the uniform. We keep getting requests not to wear uniform to adult meetings, conferences and the like. The strategy is clealry to let casualisation evolve and then it will not be as big step to take.

Keith
30-03-2012, 10:22 PM
Sexist pig!...:bigsmiley

They are for GIRLS!

Perhaps you should get one and wear it to district events.

Smartiepants
30-03-2012, 10:31 PM
Scout Shops Limited describe it as "handy when on camp. Itís great for wearing when official uniform is not required (http://shop.scouts.org.uk/p-5688-i.aspx)." At £30 each I suspect they're not expecting a rush of orders.

I don't know, I emailed Scout Shops a while back asking if they could make the ladies iscout range in anything other than pink, and got a reply saying they weren't thinking of that, but would I be interested in one of these hoody dresses (not sure what that had to do with my original question mind!). The tone of the email was very much "look at our amazing product". I'm assuming they didn't like my reply :rolleyes:



I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few of these were sold actually...it seems to meet a need for the Muslim girls, but looking at them...a long hoodie looks like it would be very nice on camp to me! an extra, thicker layer over more of you!


I can't quite see what the 'need' is for Muslim girls. It's just a slightly longer hoody!

One of my young leaders appears in the Scouting magazine modelling these, from what I can gather, she and her fellow explorers thought they were ridiculous too!

ASLChris
30-03-2012, 11:04 PM
Oh come on all.We are heading for a casual repalcement to the uniform. We keep getting requests not to wear uniform to adult meetings, conferences and the like. The strategy is clealry to let casualisation evolve and then it will not be as big step to take.

Oh come on. That is simply not going to happen - the uniform is here to stay!

Tony Ransley
31-03-2012, 07:04 AM
I can't quite see what the 'need' is for Muslim girls.


I'm not reading that right am I ?

Walsallwizard
31-03-2012, 09:52 AM
The fashion for a lot of young men is to wear trousers with their backside around the knees but we haven’t seen any of those brought out as a fashionable addition to the iscouts range..... roflmho at the thought of Bear is his hoodie and the backside of his trousers around his knees

scallywag
31-03-2012, 10:16 AM
Oh come on. That is simply not going to happen - the uniform is here to stay!

Says who? define uniform. We are heading for a casualisation of the uniform.It will still be uniform.

Walsallwizard
31-03-2012, 10:42 AM
I have resisted so far but...

There is an insidious drive to destroy the Uniform, Uniform is defined in POR Chapter 10, no hoodies, etc. There is no compulsion to wear Uniform which imho is the wrong way to do things, BP established a Uniform for clearly defined reasons and they stand the test of time; he believed that they were a leveller and removed social class and stigma making for equality. Isn’t it strange that a Group of girls are getting something to set them apart?

Sparkgap
31-03-2012, 01:21 PM
The fashion for a lot of young men is to wear trousers with their backside around the knees but we havenít seen any of those brought out as a fashionable addition to the iscouts range..... roflmho at the thought of Bear is his hoodie and the backside of his trousers around his knees

On the other hand, it could go the other way......

(note: always check your purchases before leaving the shop, to make sure that what you thought was a scout hoodie really was one)

Lister
31-03-2012, 01:59 PM
Oh come on. That is simply not going to happen - the uniform is here to stay!

Quite right, if we continue to wear it, they can't get shot of it, afterall WE (and the young people) are the future of the movement, not the "pen-pushers and bean-counters" at HQ that come up with this sort of thing.

Bushfella
31-03-2012, 04:00 PM
The uniform as we know it, will go, of that I am sure. There is a gradual mission creep away from uniform and repeatedly NON-MEMBERS tell us it is an issue. If we want to grow the movement the easy way, which apparently we do, then relaxing and removing the uniform addesses that barrier to membership, and in theory our numbers will grow.

Until we see sense, the demise of the uniform is written in the future.

banderlog
31-03-2012, 04:42 PM
A PL bought the iscout gear so did the APL ( best friend to PL )
They then told the rest of patrol unknown to leaders they wanted all the other patrol members to buy the gear.
First time th SL knew about it was when he received a phone call from a parent wanting to know why they needed it.
At the next meeting a quite word was had with the PL and APL.

ASLChris
31-03-2012, 05:10 PM
Says who? define uniform. We are heading for a casualisation of the uniform.It will still be uniform.

The uniform will adapt, but it is not Scout uniform if it isn't smart!

Lister
31-03-2012, 05:24 PM
As i said, if members stand up to HQ and say no i'm sure they'd soon change their tune, what is a movement without members, or more importantly leaders...

Walsallwizard
31-03-2012, 05:35 PM
The uniform as we know it, will go, of that I am sure. There is a gradual mission creep away from uniform and repeatedly NON-MEMBERS tell us it is an issue. If we want to grow the movement the easy way, which apparently we do, then relaxing and removing the uniform addesses that barrier to membership, and in theory our numbers will grow.
Until we see sense, the demise of the uniform is written in the future.
I agree with the mission creep but I haven’t ever had anyone tell me that there is a problem with Scouts having a Uniform in fact the exact opposite, non members commenting on how smart it looks, and it being good to see. I was out with Scouts and Cubs in the community last week and we received positive comments from several people who were passing and stopped to chat.

The uniform will adapt, but it is not Scout uniform if it isn't smart!
I don’t know about it necessarily being smart but I think it’s not really proper uniform if; there is no faint lingering smell of a camp fire, an unexplainable stain or two, small holes where badges have been put on and taken off, or residue of badge glue....

khoomei
31-03-2012, 08:03 PM
This new hoodie is a curve ball bowled by the SA marketing department at the press. They knew the press would have a field day: 'Scouts, Girls, Muslims, uniform' were the key words.

2000 Muslim Scouts, 600 Muslim Girls, how do the SA know, they do not collect these statistics? Oh well, neither the SA nor the press are interested in accuracy. Let's go with 600, at least half will be under 12 (the hoodies are designed for 12+). I am sure they all already own clothes they could use for adventurous activities anyway. So the potential sales are pretty small.

Actually I think that the design is nice and it would be OK if Scout Shops were to introduce a range to cover most sizes, shapes, budgets and sensibilities, but it doesn't seem appropriate to single out a very small group with a unique design. This is contrary to what Scouting is about.

As far as Uniform in general is concerned, it is supposed to be the leveller and the group identity, and should be central to the activities we do. I believe that formality will be the death of the uniform. I would be quite happy for the uniform to be a hoodie, as long as it meant that it was worn on the majority of activities.

Bushfella
31-03-2012, 08:15 PM
I agree with the mission creep but I haven’t ever had anyone tell me that there is a problem with Scouts having a Uniform in fact the exact opposite, non members commenting on how smart it looks, and it being good to see. I was out with Scouts and Cubs in the community last week and we received positive comments from several people who were passing and stopped to chat.

Ah, but those were not comments from potential youth members, I'd guess.

Wrinklies almost always say they like to see kids in uniform. Most just wish it was National Service...

banderlog
31-03-2012, 09:00 PM
My Scouts think the BP Hat is great but I dont see it for sale in scout shops

khoomei
31-03-2012, 09:07 PM
My Scouts think the BP Hat is great but I dont see it for sale in scout shops

http://shop.scouts.org.uk/p-3274-baden-powell-scout-hat-khaki.aspx

banderlog
31-03-2012, 09:16 PM
http://shop.scouts.org.uk/p-3274-baden-powell-scout-hat-khaki.aspx

I stand corrected and the info will be passed on to our Scouts who said the wanted one 39.00 may put them off but I am sure it will have a longer life than over size hoodies

marcswales
01-04-2012, 12:25 AM
Actually I think that the design is nice and it would be OK if Scout Shops were to introduce a range to cover most sizes, shapes, budgets and sensibilities, but it doesn't seem appropriate to single out a very small group with a unique design. This is contrary to what Scouting is about.

.

I see it as a 21st century camp blanket, ideal for sitting around campfires or late at night sorting out Scout Ass Policy, the ideal wear to have to hand for emergeny exits from the ten at all times of night. Oh It's'meant to be a dress? For Muslims? Improvise, adapt and overcome.

Walsallwizard
01-04-2012, 09:49 AM
Perhaps as a youth movement we should canvas the members on what they think of current uniform or would want from a new uniform?

Tony Ransley
01-04-2012, 11:29 AM
Perhaps as a youth movement we should canvas the members on what they think of current uniform or would want from a new uniform?

No problem with that and providing the process is fair and transparent and the results are published, then we can all except the outcome and move on. The issue I have is that some time ago we had a consultation which satisfied neither those who wanted to go casual nor the more conservative amongst us and since then HQ seem to be trying to undermine the existing uniform without informing the grass roots what they are doing or why they are doing it. Or am I been paranoid?

Y.I.S. Tony

ASLChris
01-04-2012, 11:37 AM
I donít know about it necessarily being smart but I think itís not really proper uniform if; there is no faint lingering smell of a camp fire, an unexplainable stain or two, small holes where badges have been put on and taken off, or residue of badge glue....

The UNIFORM should be smart; whether the individual items remain totally so is a different matter...

khoomei
01-04-2012, 11:55 AM
The UNIFORM should be smart; whether the individual items remain totally so is a different matter...

Surely, uniform is about uniformity. Smartness is about the angle and number of creases.

As long as we don't go down the GGUK route of having so many options there is no uniformity at all.

I agree with Tony, Gilwell seem to have an agenda to banish uniform to a few formal occasions, to the point where some members will not bother to own a uniform. At that point we cease to be a uniformed organisation by stealth.

Smartiepants
01-04-2012, 12:03 PM
The UNIFORM should be smart; whether the individual items remain totally so is a different matter...

I don't think our uniform is that smart. It's a shirt covered in badges which can never be perfectly ironed, coupled with 'activity' trousers. I try and keep it smart-ish for formal occasions, but find the iscout/scout and proud ranges useful for camps/messy activities. Then again, I have two different uniforms, one formal, one informal.

notgonehome
01-04-2012, 12:30 PM
1859
setting the standards

Tony Ransley
01-04-2012, 12:42 PM
I don't think our uniform is that smart. It's a shirt covered in badges which can never be perfectly ironed, coupled with 'activity' trousers. I try and keep it smart-ish for formal occasions, but find the iscout/scout and proud ranges useful for camps/messy activities. Then again, I have two different uniforms, one formal, one informal.

Hi Anastasia,

Some families struggle to buy their children one set of scouting clothing, in the past advice has been easy, scout uniform. I supported the change in style (not colour) last time because it was more practicable and looked 'smart enough' when needed, my problem now is what do I encourage families on low incomes to buy ?

Will scouts who follow Gilwell's example and only have a scarf knotted around their neck be chosen to represent the Movement when the Queen visits?

Will they achieve the Queens scout award only to humiliated when they attend the Windsor parade because they did not have the 'optional' style of trousers (yes it did happen).

Will they be told that regardless of our group tradition and their preference they have to wear the (optional) friendship knot if they want to 'fit in' to the Jamboree contingent ( yes that happened as well).

Guess what I am asking for is for HQ to have some of the courage and honesty we expect of 11 year olds, and tell us what is going on.

Y.I.S. Tony[COLOR="Silver"]

Smartiepants
01-04-2012, 02:16 PM
We ask our members to buy the uniform top and necker as a minimum, everything else is optional. We're lucky in that 2 of our local primary schools wear the same colour green, so most wear their school t-shirt under their cub jumper. I ask leaving cubs to donate their sweatshirt if they no longer want it and I remove the badges, wash it and offer it to any new members for £2. No-one has to spend a lot of money if they don't want to. I live a very scouty life, so have numerous items of scouting clothing because it makes sense for me to have them, but they should always be a casual alternative to the full uniform IMO.

bulpittw
01-04-2012, 02:33 PM
As I do all the time Tony, the challenge is that often the rumour and speculation is much more entertaining than the truth, so some people prefer to believe it.
Wayne

Tony Ransley
01-04-2012, 04:08 PM
Thank you for the reply Wayne and forgive me for still not 'getting it' I am sure it is down to age, can I also ask you to accept that I am not raising this for my own entertainment but because I am handing over my role to younger people who are quite hard line on this issue and it is important that I give them the right advice.

I am quite happy to go along with any uniform the movement decides including hoodies, my problem is that at present P.O.R. is describing a uniform which is rarely if ever worn by those from HQ when they are representing us in public which to me (and maybe others) is confusing.

I am aware that having a policy where just a Knotted scarf would qualify as uniform would suit some of the groups I care about down to the ground, however having had young people caught out when items of uniform we had been told were up to the group to decide had to be changed when it came to a national event I would prefer not to have any confusion.

So if our group opts to have our group scarf as the only item of uniform will our scouts be given the same respect and access to events like meeting the Queen as members who can afford the full uniform?

and conversely if they decide to afford full uniform including woggles will it count against them when people are been picked to represent the movement on TV, ext?

If we can clear this up beyond all reasonable doubt now, then I won't mention it again. How's that for an offer you can't refuse?

Y.I.S. Tony

Sparkgap
01-04-2012, 06:39 PM
We ask our members to buy the uniform top and necker as a minimum, everything else is optional. We're lucky in that 2 of our local primary schools wear the same colour green, so most wear their school t-shirt under their cub jumper. I ask leaving cubs to donate their sweatshirt if they no longer want it and I remove the badges, wash it and offer it to any new members for £2. No-one has to spend a lot of money if they don't want to. I live a very scouty life, so have numerous items of scouting clothing because it makes sense for me to have them, but they should always be a casual alternative to the full uniform IMO.

Likewise. I don't insist my scouts have the official trousers and probably like the majority of others I ask them to wear school trousers when something decent is needed. Interestingly, I found that on a couple of occasions when we called in to the scout shop in Lisbon, the most popular item of scout clothing bought by the kids were the Portuguese scout hoodies, each with large scout badge on the front and 'Scouts' on the back, none of this i-scout stuff! :rolleyes:

ASLChris
01-04-2012, 08:20 PM
Surely, uniform is about uniformity. Smartness is about the angle and number of creases.

As long as we don't go down the GGUK route of having so many options there is no uniformity at all.

I agree with Tony, Gilwell seem to have an agenda to banish uniform to a few formal occasions, to the point where some members will not bother to own a uniform. At that point we cease to be a uniformed organisation by stealth.

If the uniform was about uniformity, why would we hand out different badges to every Scout?

And you clearly have a different view of smartness to me - it's as much about the style than specifically how well ironed it is. Yes, that contributes to overall perception, but a shirt always looks smarter than a hoodie, however well ironed the hoodie may be.

I think you are completely and utterly wrong and, frankly, being extremely foolish if you think Gilwell wants to banish the uniform - by stealth or any other means.

khoomei
02-04-2012, 11:57 AM
If the uniform was about uniformity, why would we hand out different badges to every Scout?


I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, but in my opinion, uniform is primarily about collective identity, both within and with the public. Too much emphasis on formality and smartness greatly limits the opportunities to wear the uniform and therefore defeats it's purpose.

Gilwell clearly think that uniform is bad PR (and they might be right). When it comes to the written word, they define the style right down to the use of capital letters, but where clothing is concerned, they are all over the place, as the launch of this new hoodie shows.

Even our Chief Scout is rarely seen in uniform, is this because it isn't fit for purpose? I think this particularly applies to the older sections, some of whom are shy about being seen in uniform, because it doesn't 'say' cool, active or adventurous.

We can't expect our young people to own lots of branded alternative clothing, the best we should expect is that they own one top, so let's make sure it is appropriate, useful and widely recognisable.

Walsallwizard
02-04-2012, 04:03 PM
Was this not part of B-P’s original belief, that uniform makes us equal?

The resurgence of wearing of Uniform in public by the military is a good thing, imho. Part of the reason why it stopped was that it made them targets for terrorists during the heyday of the IRA (allegedly) and there will have been others. Often now we see men and women in Uniform and most of us I would guess would look at them with a certain amount of pride and compassion for the job they are doing.


Even our Chief Scout is rarely seen in uniform, is this because it isn't fit for purpose? I think this particularly applies to the older sections, some of whom are shy about being seen in uniform, because it doesn't 'say' cool, active or adventurous. Something I have raised and was not particularly happy about the answers. We only have one defined Uniform it is in POR but there is no requirement to wear it.

The experience of my Group is that aside from Official tops no-one has bought any iScout clothing apart from us Leaders. The YP all buy our Group logo tee shirt and we sell them at £2 less than the Scout shop section tee shirts.


I think you are completely and utterly wrong and, frankly, being extremely foolish if you think Gilwell wants to banish the uniform - by stealth or any other means.
No one has said that the Uniform will be banished, but, it is and has already being changed and not by any form of consultation. Note the comments below the Scout website article (https://www.scouts.org.uk/news/482/new-clothing-range-launch-for-girls) and it is clear that many are mistaking the new hoodie dress for Uniform. There is no clear statement from the SA that this is not official uniform, the article gives the impression that it is. So I’ll gladly take the label of foolish, but I am no fool and this is evidence of the gradual displacement of the Uniform we have.

Bushfella
02-04-2012, 04:15 PM
I think you are completely and utterly wrong and, frankly, being extremely foolish if you think Gilwell wants to banish the uniform - by stealth or any other means.

I think the evidence clearly suggests a minimising of the official uniform use, and ultimately it will be dropped for something less formal, I'm sure. If there was strong support for the uniform at the Sa then why do HQ representatives so often eschew it for something more casual?

ASLChris
02-04-2012, 08:37 PM
No one has said that the Uniform will be banished, but, it is and has already being changed and not by any form of consultation. Note the comments below the Scout website article (https://www.scouts.org.uk/news/482/new-clothing-range-launch-for-girls) and it is clear that many are mistaking the new hoodie dress for Uniform. There is no clear statement from the SA that this is not official uniform, the article gives the impression that it is. So Iíll gladly take the label of foolish, but I am no fool and this is evidence of the gradual displacement of the Uniform we have.

I always despair that people can't seem to read the words that are put in front of them, and are able to add 2 and 2 to reach 512.

It is totally obvious that this hoodie is just an extension to the i.SCOUT range.

Walsallwizard
02-04-2012, 09:40 PM
The new clothing range is one way that UK Scouting is adapting to suit our increasingly diverse membership This line from the Scouts.org can clearly lead to the conclusion that the Hoodie is Uniform.

It is not totally obvious that this hoodie is not a new item of Uniform at all, if it were people would not be questioning it. These hoodies have been linked throughout the media with Scouting and Scouting activity, now if you associate clothing to Scouting in the way this has been then it is easy to see why the link to Uniform is made.

I think it’s a great idea and looks a cracking product but the message in the media has missed some of its target audience with a mixed message. If you want a recent big messed up media message just take a look at the mass panic caused by Government minister over the potential fuel strike. What they said was actually common sense but the reaction to it was not.

The message in the media should have stated that this is NOT Uniform but an informal hoodie designed for social rather than formal wear.

bulpittw
02-04-2012, 09:46 PM
Thank you for the reply Wayne and forgive me for still not 'getting it' I am sure it is down to age, can I also ask you to accept that I am not raising this for my own entertainment but because I am handing over my role to younger people who are quite hard line on this issue and it is important that I give them the right advice.

I am quite happy to go along with any uniform the movement decides including hoodies, my problem is that at present P.O.R. is describing a uniform which is rarely if ever worn by those from HQ when they are representing us in public which to me (and maybe others) is confusing.

I am aware that having a policy where just a Knotted scarf would qualify as uniform would suit some of the groups I care about down to the ground, however having had young people caught out when items of uniform we had been told were up to the group to decide had to be changed when it came to a national event I would prefer not to have any confusion.

So if our group opts to have our group scarf as the only item of uniform will our scouts be given the same respect and access to events like meeting the Queen as members who can afford the full uniform?

and conversely if they decide to afford full uniform including woggles will it count against them when people are been picked to represent the movement on TV, ext?

If we can clear this up beyond all reasonable doubt now, then I won't mention it again. How's that for an offer you can't refuse?

Y.I.S. Tony

Hi Tony,

Indeed, an offer I can't refuse and even trying to post with the quote this time.

I, like most of my colleagues, wear uniform when representing the Association, we also wear activity dress when appropriate too.

Yes, I can imagine your Scouts attending an event with the Queen in the dress you suggest. You may have seen for example a recent story on the website and in the media of Scouts chatting to Prince Charles at just such an event.

As for appearing on TV, then it may well be the activity dress is more appropriate, so your Scouts would certainly not be prevented from appearing because they wear uniform, although they may be provided with something considered more appropriate for the activity etc.

No matter how sceptical people are, there is no discussion about reducing the uniform. Yes, it is true that we now have a less formal approach than we had and that activity dress or optional items are more popular. It's hard to get away from the fact that our Movement is currently more popular than it has been for decades with growing membership especially amongst teenagers and this cannot be dis-engaged from our changing image.

Cheers,
Wayne

Walsallwizard
02-04-2012, 10:30 PM
Hi Wayne,
Sorry but part of your response to Tony has left me rather confused


No matter how sceptical people are, there is no discussion about reducing the uniform. Yes, it is true that we now have a less formal approach than we had and that activity dress or optional items are more popular. It's hard to get away from the fact that our Movement is currently more popular than it has been for decades with growing membership especially amongst teenagers and this cannot be dis-engaged from our changing image.
I am one of the Sceptics and sadly this part of your answer reinforces that.

The SA sell iScout clothing but I am not aware of it being classed as activity dress for Scouts in POR, this may seem to be pedantic but this is where part of the sceptic in me lies because you appear to be giving the implication that we have an official “activity dress”. I am sure it was just the way you put this but could you just clarify that.

I am not adverse to the need for Uniform to be reviewed on a regular basis and I am sure it is, perhaps though it could be included as part of our changing image as I often find both Beavers and Cubs want to strip off straight away being too hot.

ASLChris
02-04-2012, 11:11 PM
This line from the Scouts.org can clearly lead to the conclusion that the Hoodie is Uniform.

It is not totally obvious that this hoodie is not a new item of Uniform at all, if it were people would not be questioning it. These hoodies have been linked throughout the media with Scouting and Scouting activity, now if you associate clothing to Scouting in the way this has been then it is easy to see why the link to Uniform is made.

I think itís a great idea and looks a cracking product but the message in the media has missed some of its target audience with a mixed message. If you want a recent big messed up media message just take a look at the mass panic caused by Government minister over the potential fuel strike. What they said was actually common sense but the reaction to it was not.

The message in the media should have stated that this is NOT Uniform but an informal hoodie designed for social rather than formal wear.

The message is that the media don't actually read press releases properly (http://beprepared.me.uk/2012/03/when-a-new-uniform-is-just-new-casual-active-scouting-wear/). Like with many things, the media either don't pay attention, don't understand, or simply don't care.

Walsallwizard
03-04-2012, 07:15 AM
Sorry Chris but you are way out of line imho with your websites attack on the media and fellow Scouters! The use of the Scouts.org.uk imagery and quoting of fellow Leaders just proves the point I and others have made that these hoodies may well have been interpreted as Uniform by many people. It would have been a fairer rant on your site if you had included some of the positive comments from the Mail Online

Well done Scouts UK Good to see. Mick Sout Austrailia - Michael Bennett,

Absolutely love it,charming!! - poppiloo, Croydon
I ignored the ones that mistakenly took this for uniform but were just commenting on the item of clothing.
But thank you Chris for proving the point I have been making all along

Gooders
03-04-2012, 07:33 AM
My sister-in-law runs a PR company and her main business is mainly producing press releases for products to go into trade journals.

I'm sure Ewan will correct me if this is incorrect but, in her experience, very few journals read or edit the press release before publication.

If that is true in this case then the misunderstanding will have been created by TSA rather than the tabloid press.

Stephen


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ianw
03-04-2012, 07:53 AM
I, like most of my colleagues, wear uniform when representing the Association, we also wear activity dress when appropriate too.


That hoody thing is quite long, I suppose you could describe it as a dress. Nice to see HQ support a long and noble tradition of scouts cross dressing.

Ian

bulpittw
03-04-2012, 09:42 AM
Hi Wayne,
Sorry but part of your response to Tony has left me rather confused


I am one of the Sceptics and sadly this part of your answer reinforces that.

The SA sell iScout clothing but I am not aware of it being classed as activity dress for Scouts in POR, this may seem to be pedantic but this is where part of the sceptic in me lies because you appear to be giving the implication that we have an official ďactivity dressĒ. I am sure it was just the way you put this but could you just clarify that.

Hi Richard,

Really not sure how you can draw that interpretation from what I wrote, but happy to confirm that I'm not aware of any definition of activity dress.

I have mentioned previously the ongoing review of individual uniform items (style, sizes etc.) so there will be various opportunities to make suggestions.
Wayne

ASLChris
03-04-2012, 05:44 PM
My sister-in-law runs a PR company and her main business is mainly producing press releases for products to go into trade journals.

I'm sure Ewan will correct me if this is incorrect but, in her experience, very few journals read or edit the press release before publication.

If that is true in this case then the misunderstanding will have been created by TSA rather than the tabloid press.

Stephen


Sent using Tapatalk

The press write the headline at the very least... and that's the bit that causes most confusion.

Bushfella
03-04-2012, 06:05 PM
My sister-in-law runs a PR company and her main business is mainly producing press releases for products to go into trade journals.

Trade journals do sometimes alter press releases, but generally just top and tail. Some re-write.

Local papers can often do the same, but nationals... it is less likely.

Probably a combination of a poorly written press release and some interpretative journalism.

Walsallwizard
04-04-2012, 01:01 PM
Wayne,
I am making an assumption that you have joined into this debate as a fellow Scouter and would not expect you to be defining or establishing policy or protocol on these forums but expressing a personal view, so I thank you for clarifying your statement. The rest is not aimed at you but feel free to comment if you wish.
Regards
Richard

The difficulty I have over this issue with Uniform and iScouts clothing is in reality very simple, Uniform is defined in POR Chapter 10. The rules identify optional activity dress but this is very limited and at no time mentions any branded items.

The iScout branded clothing is clearly inspired by and has an association with Scouting, but this is social fashionable clothing that has nothing to do with Uniform. However the media coverage is identifying iScout clothing with Uniform and the SA have not really taken a strong stance to disassociate iScout clothing from Uniform, imho the SA are actually associating with iScouts over other products.

Now it may just be my sceptical perception but all the descriptions of iScout clothing have the line
Itís great for wearing when official uniform is not required. This last part of the description associates the items with Uniform by giving the impression that they are unoffical Uniform! This does not happen with other brands of clothing being sold through the Scout Shop so there is no association with those items.

My approach to Uniform has not changed and as far as I am aware either has the SA, it is laid down in POR. So what exactly is iScout clothing about and why is the Scout Shop identifying with iScouts clothing as presumably as unofficial uniform?

Neil Williams
04-04-2012, 01:38 PM
No different from Group T-shirts, hoodies etc, presumably.

Neil

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banderlog
04-04-2012, 02:21 PM
Re:It’s great for wearing when official uniform is not required.
When I was a Scout we always had the uniform on other than swimming or sleeping maybe the the uniform was far more practical 18601861

jshirra
04-04-2012, 03:42 PM
The iScout branded clothing is clearly inspired by and has an association with Scouting, but this is social fashionable clothing that has nothing to do with Uniform. However the media coverage is identifying iScout clothing with Uniform and the SA have not really taken a strong stance to disassociate iScout clothing from Uniform, imho the SA are actually associating with iScouts over other products.

Now it may just be my sceptical perception but all the descriptions of iScout clothing have the line This last part of the description associates the items with Uniform by giving the impression that they are unoffical Uniform! This does not happen with other brands of clothing being sold through the Scout Shop so there is no association with those items.

The media and YP know we wear uniform. What is most likely to attracted a new YP? A bunch of people in shirts, or people in brightly coloured, comfortable clothing that they wear themselves?

I am fully for the unofficial uniform as you say it...keeps everyone looking similar (okay maybe different colours but the same tees!), looking comfortable, looking FUN!

Uniform is still a part of us - we will remain a uniformed organisation. There are plenty of times that it is appropriate (awards, investitures, official events, visits) but it must be remembered that none of them require uniform!

shiftypete
04-04-2012, 04:34 PM
There are plenty of times that it is appropriate (awards, investitures, official events, visits) but it must be remembered that none of them require uniform!
If those were the only times we wore Uniform then even I probably wouldn't bother buying one (not at TSA prices) I certainly would have a problem asking youth members to buy uniform for such infrequent use. luckily that is not the case and we wear uniform most weeks. The current uniform is perfectly comfortable (so long as no one is silly enough to insit the top button is done up) and practical for most weekly activities and where it is not appropriate then I have no problem with Explorers wearing suitable non uniform clothing

GSLColchester
04-04-2012, 04:50 PM
My Scout Group has tickets for this years Trooping of the Colour, so do we attend and represent The Scout Association in iScout clothing or Full uniform (as we intended to do)?

As a GSL I hope we will all wear full uniform as I feel this sort of event warrants the need, but I would be happy to wear my iScout polo shirt & hoodie with our group neckerchief!

Nicole


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merryweather
04-04-2012, 05:15 PM
Re:Itís great for wearing when official uniform is not required.

please note. there is NEVER a time when official uniform is required.

the wearing of uniform is an entitlement. period.

jeez louise! will people please understand what is meant by 'never' and 'period' in the above sentances.

cordially yours, TM

BigBadBaloo
04-04-2012, 05:27 PM
My Scout Group has tickets for this years Trooping of the Colour, so do we attend and represent The Scout Association in iScout clothing or Full uniform (as we intended to do)?

As a GSL I hope we will all wear full uniform as I feel this sort of event warrants the need, but I would be happy to wear my iScout polo shirt & hoodie with our group neckerchief!

Nicole


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

If it was me, I would ask all yp & leaders to wear uniform. If they didn't I wouldn't be best pleased, but there is little one can do if they turn up at the meeting point in something different!

jshirra
04-04-2012, 05:31 PM
If those were the only times we wore Uniform then even I probably wouldn't bother buying one (not at TSA prices) I certainly would have a problem asking youth members to buy uniform for such infrequent use. luckily that is not the case and we wear uniform most weeks. The current uniform is perfectly comfortable (so long as no one is silly enough to insit the top button is done up) and practical for most weekly activities and where it is not appropriate then I have no problem with Explorers wearing suitable non uniform clothing
Sorry - not withstanding section meetings where uniform tends to be worn as appropriate! That wasn't intended to be an exhaustive list!

BigBadBaloo
04-04-2012, 05:37 PM
please note. there is NEVER a time when official uniform is required.

the wearing of uniform is an entitlement. period.

jeez louise! will people please understand what is meant by 'never' and 'period' in the above sentances.

cordially yours, TM

Hear, Hear!! The leadership team at our one of our packs rarely wears official uniform to pack meetings, camps etc. preferring instead to wear the leaders polo. However they do have official uniform and wear it when appropriate (about once or twice a year!). I actually do wear uniform on most occasions to pack meetings etc. as do (most of) the Cubs.

Can I ask one question tho' of those that insist on official uniform at meetings - what do you do when/if a yp turns up and isn't in uniform - send them home?

shiftypete
04-04-2012, 05:43 PM
what do you do when/if a yp turns up and isn't in uniform - send them home?Usually ask them where their Uniform is and ask them to make sure they wear it next week (if appropriate). At Beavers on the odd occasion one turns up without uniform their parent is usually most apologetic and explains why they aren't wearing it (came straight from x, split tea down it, left it at father's house etc etc).

I tend to have to regularly remind some of our Explorers that neckers are required Uniform items, yet they are usually wearing their shirt (I wonder if they have lost their necker in the mess that is a teenagers bedroom)

Daniel
04-04-2012, 05:50 PM
I wouldn't want i.SCOUT clothing listed in POR as activity dress, along with a huge list of what could be worn during scouting events when not in uniform.

Surely common sense says uniform is what is listed in POR and members can wear anything else when not in uniform...? i.scout clothing just falls under non uniform.

Walsallwizard
04-04-2012, 06:00 PM
The media and YP know we wear uniform. What is most likely to attracted a new YP? A bunch of people in shirts, or people in brightly coloured, comfortable clothing that they wear themselves?
We have managed to attract new YP without iScout clothing or bright colours and have 33,000 waiting? If it is clothing that attracts them we best stay with what we got because if we attract more we can’t get them in!


Uniform is still a part of us - we will remain a uniformed organisation. There are plenty of times that it is appropriate (awards, investitures, official events, visits) but it must be remembered that none of them require uniform!
Sadly we are not a Uniformed organisation, the wearing of Uniform is an entitlement and is not compulsory, it is optional. My Cubs and I wear uniform every week for flag break and flag down, I have no intention of changing, I consider it a mark of respect to my nation, the history and heritage of all those that have gone before.


Can I ask one question tho' of those that insist on official uniform at meetings - what do you do when/if a yp turns up and isn't in uniform - send them home? I always ask why, once explained get on with the rest of the night, if the same YP keeps not wearing I would question why they are still attending. All YP that join my Cub Pack (same goes for Beavers and Scouts) know that we wear Uniform, part of them joining is the acceptance of this. Most are exceptional proud of their Uniforms and displaying the Awards and Badges they have earned.

jshirra
04-04-2012, 06:28 PM
We have managed to attract new YP without iScout clothing or bright colours and have 33,000 waiting? If it is clothing that attracts them we best stay with what we got because if we attract more we can’t get them in!
True it doesn't attract on it's own, but it looks more friendly, presenting a more interesting story, meaning that more people may read it. Okay we have a huge waiting list - but recruiting scouts means adults too!


Sadly we are not a Uniformed organisation, the wearing of Uniform is an entitlement and is not compulsory, it is optional. My Cubs and I wear uniform every week for flag break and flag down, I have no intention of changing, I consider it a mark of respect to my nation, the history and heritage of all those that have gone before.

That reads like we should be forced to wear uniform at all events!?! I wouldn't try and change your use of the uniform....but I don't see how only using it at the start and end is any different to using it only at rememberence and St Georges!

roger-uk
04-04-2012, 06:33 PM
The media and YP know we wear uniform. What is most likely to attracted a new YP? A bunch of people in shirts, or people in brightly coloured, comfortable clothing that they wear themselves?

I am fully for the unofficial uniform as you say it...keeps everyone looking similar (okay maybe different colours but the same tees!), looking comfortable, looking FUN!

Uniform is still a part of us - we will remain a uniformed organisation. There are plenty of times that it is appropriate (awards, investitures, official events, visits) but it must be remembered that none of them require uniform!

If that were true why do Queens Scouts undergo the strict uniform policy at windsor?

You cannot have it both ways. Either we is or we isn't

Walsallwizard
04-04-2012, 06:35 PM
I didn't wear Uniform to Grim up North, DAS days, camp working days, I wear what is appropriate. I would also not force anyone to do anything, we have a choice and choices mean consequences sometimes

jshirra
04-04-2012, 06:40 PM
If that were true why do Queens Scouts undergo the strict uniform policy at windsor?

You cannot have it both ways. Either we is or we isn't
Windsor is a formal event, new QSA are given, royalty are present...as a uniformed organisation we should be on top form.

When royalty are involved the media has a pre conception anyway (for better or for worse!)

What's the point in us being an adventurous, outdoor, active movement if we're in shirts and trousers?? Especially when presenting that side to the media...

shiftypete
04-04-2012, 06:46 PM
but I don't see how only using it at the start and end is any different to using it only at rememberence and St Georges!The difference is massive, one is meaning uniform is used regularly (probably most weeks) so easily justifies asking parents to buy it. the other would mean wearing it at most twice a year (and in our case never given we have never 'done' remembrance parades and our District dropped St George's parades a few years ago) which would not justify us asking parents to buy Uniform at all. In fact in my opinion it would negate the entire point of having Uniform in the first place.

Just to be clear I am no Uniform freak, most weeks I wear jeans with my shirt and necker but I do think uniform serves a purpose

Tony Ransley
04-04-2012, 07:17 PM
Windsor is a formal event, new QSA are given, royalty are present...as a uniformed organisation we should be on top form

Are there not plans to replace The Windsor Parade with something less formal ?

------ Update --- The Following was Added within 30 Minutes of the above ---


What's the point in us being an adventurous, outdoor, active movement if we're in shirts and trousers?

Why are they called activity trousers if they aren't meant to be worn on activities?

------ Update --- The Following was Added within 30 Minutes of the above ---


When royalty are involved the media has a pre conception anyway (for better or for worse!) Especially when presenting that side to the media...

Sounds like we could save a lot of money by scrapping HQ staff and letting Rupert Murdoch manage the movement,

Walsallwizard
04-04-2012, 09:31 PM
Windsor is a formal event, new QSA are given, royalty are present...as a uniformed organisation we should be on top form.
No, we are not a uniformed organisation

When royalty are involved the media has a pre conception anyway (for better or for worse!) Queen wear her Uniform when appropriate


What's the point in us being an adventurous, outdoor, active movement if we're in shirts and trousers?? Especially when presenting that side to the media...What would you suggest I wear? I am not partial to skirts and blouses! Seriously though I can do any activity in a Scout Uniform shirt and trousers. Today I have watched DIY SOS with a group of Navy men all working in Uniform shirt and trousers, strangely a lot of soldiers work in uniform shirt and trousers; they have differing grades of uniform for different jobs though.

Lister
04-04-2012, 10:46 PM
No, we are not a uniformed organisation.

If we're not a uniformed organisation then why is our uniform protected under the Chartered Associations (Protection of Names and Uniforms) Act 1926? (POR Rule 10.1a), I'm not a uniform freak either but as part of our history (and dare i say it identity and foundation) it is not right to get rid of it, unless of course you are using the term "uniformed organisation" in relation to armed forces and emergency services etc?

Sparkgap
05-04-2012, 07:51 AM
Sounds like we could save a lot of money by scrapping HQ staff and letting Rupert Murdoch manage the movement,

Yes, but your mobile phone might be less reliable! :rolling_s



What would you suggest I wear? I am not partial to skirts and blouses! Seriously though I can do any activity in a Scout Uniform shirt and trousers. Today I have watched DIY SOS with a group of Navy men all working in Uniform shirt and trousers, strangely a lot of soldiers work in uniform shirt and trousers; they have differing grades of uniform for different jobs though.

Last year we attended a camp in Portugal. Most of the scouts there wore the official activity t-shirt during the day and full uniform for outside camp/opening/closing. Ours stuck to casual look during camp with just our necker as the only uniform item, probably better considering how quickly they got dirty!
I usually go for whatever is practical for an activity.

banderlog
05-04-2012, 07:58 AM
Yes, but your mobile phone might be less reliable! :rolling_s



Last year we attended a camp in Portugal. Most of the scouts there wore the official activity t-shirt during the day and full uniform for outside camp/opening/closing. Ours stuck to casual look during camp with just our necker as the only uniform item, probably better considering how quickly they got dirty!
I usually go for whatever is practical for an activity.

If I had a choice between an ever expanding amout of scouting gear or just a necker the necker would win hands down

jshirra
05-04-2012, 08:42 AM
Queen wear her Uniform when appropriate Which is my point! When appropriate!


What would you suggest I wear? I am not partial to skirts and blouses! Seriously though I can do any activity in a Scout Uniform shirt and trousers. Today I have watched DIY SOS with a group of Navy men all working in Uniform shirt and trousers, strangely a lot of soldiers work in uniform shirt and trousers; they have differing grades of uniform for different jobs though.
But there are better clothing options for many activities. I may be physically able to wear my uniform but I would prefer to wear something more comfortable...

I also think it makes the uniform more special when it's worn for events...makes it something to be proud of in my mind....It's an outfit to show my pride of scouting and whatever the event is for!

shiftypete
05-04-2012, 08:44 AM
I have pride in Scouting and my Uniform every week

orion1107
05-04-2012, 09:07 AM
Which is my point! When appropriate!
But there are better clothing options for many activities. I may be physically able to wear my uniform but I would prefer to wear something more comfortable...

I also think it makes the uniform more special when it's worn for events...makes it something to be proud of in my mind....It's an outfit to show my pride of scouting and whatever the event is for!

Our programme says each week whether uniform is required (much more often than not), but your wearing it twice a year to make you feel 'proud' just screams of tokenism. You cant ultimately be that proud of your uniform if your in favour of hiding it away to get more people to join.

I am all for adapting the organisation to suit the needs of young people today, making scouting open to all, boys, girls ect. But we have to maintain some principles, otherwise in our attempt to be the super popular cool club, we will just end up 'another club'.

Walsallwizard
05-04-2012, 10:26 AM
Which is my point! When appropriate!But the Queen has differing levels of Uniform and the one chosen is determined by need and protocol. Our protocol is POR and the only one Uniform described, although not compulsory it is the only reference point we have! I have asked for this to be altered but essentially was told that as Uniform is not compulsory to Scouting there is no need.


But there are better clothing options for many activities. I may be physically able to wear my uniform but I would prefer to wear something more comfortable...I agree but I do probably 90% of my Scouting in Scout Uniform.


I also think it makes the uniform more special when it's worn for events...makes it something to be proud of in my mind....It's an outfit to show my pride of scouting and whatever the event is for!I am sorry you think that way, my Uniform is special to me every time I wear it and I take immense pride in the wearing of it and the SA as a whole. My iScout hoodie though I can take it or leave, I customised it with our Group badge and an Akela badge, that makes it mine but is it special or am I proud of it....? Nah, it’s just one of several garments I own. But my Scout shirt now that is a special garment.

What we need imho is a more closer association with our Uniform, it hasn’t put YP off, the YP joining us are usually mad keen to get thiers including the 5 YL’s we have recruited over the last year. The Queen represents the Country, I would wear uniform to meet her or be in her presence if it were a Scouting event; likewise I prefer to be in Uniform at flag break and flag down as a mark of respect for my Country

I like the iScouts clothing, and if they produce more and better designs that’s great but the SA needs to be absolutely clear in all of literature whether online or not that this is not Uniform clothing; there should be absolutely no link intended or advertent to promote even the suggestion that this is acceptable clothing when uniform isn’t required. The reasoning behind that is simple, if iScout is an acceptable alternative when non uniform is required and is promoted as such by the SA then, would a tee shirt be an acceptable alternative? Or would a tee shirt with what some might consider offensive, political, extremist, vulgar logos be acceptable?

Uniform isn’t about pleasing the masses, it is our history, heritage, at the heart of the core values believed in and laid out by BP. There must be an end to the perception and marketing of iScouts clothing as garments that are an alternative when Uniform is not required.

Lister
05-04-2012, 10:33 AM
If the issue is that wearing what is considered "full uniform" at events only "tokenism", why not introduce seperate uniforms? "Class A's" for rememberance day/SGD and the like (so the look of smartness is maintained) and Class B's (Activity trousers/polo neck/necker) for activities/group nights. The military have a similar setup but you don't hear squaddies complaining of "tokenism" when they only wear Class A's for formal events.

jshirra
05-04-2012, 10:54 AM
Our programme says each week whether uniform is required (much more often than not), but your wearing it twice a year to make you feel 'proud' just screams of tokenism. You cant ultimately be that proud of your uniform if your in favour of hiding it away to get more people to join.

I am all for adapting the organisation to suit the needs of young people today, making scouting open to all, boys, girls ect. But we have to maintain some principles, otherwise in our attempt to be the super popular cool club, we will just end up 'another club'. I'm not saying don't wear it each week, but often it isn't the best wear for the activities being done!


But the Queen has differing levels of Uniform and the one chosen is determined by need and protocol. Our protocol is POR and the only one Uniform described, although not compulsory it is the only reference point we have! I have asked for this to be altered but essentially was told that as Uniform is not compulsory to Scouting there is no need.Common sense more than anything surely!?! We are going on a hike, being filmed (not quite sure why!) so we want to clearly show we are scouts...iScout shirt and a necker would be more comfortable/appropriate than shirt and necker?


I agree but I do probably 90% of my Scouting in Scout Uniform.I am amazed by that! I find them too warm and not well fitting enough for me to want to wear it for 90% of my scouting!


I am sorry you think that way, my Uniform is special to me every time I wear it and I take immense pride in the wearing of it and the SA as a whole. Do your scouts feel the same way? Are they itching to get the uniform off as soon as flag break is over?


What we need imho is a more closer association with our Uniform, it hasnít put YP off, the YP joining us are usually mad keen to get thiers including the 5 YLís we have recruited over the last year. I sort of agree, but I think the uniform could be updated to make it more modern...has the uniform every really changed other than colours since 1907?!?

Look at the police: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1552974/Bobbies-in-black-say-goodbye-to-clip-on-ties.html they are now wearing modern materials which are easier to maintain and more comfortable. They still look smart and professional and easily identifiable...


I like the iScouts clothing, and if they produce more and better designs thatís great but the SA needs to be absolutely clear in all of literature whether online or not that this is not Uniform clothing; there should be absolutely no link intended or advertent to promote even the suggestion that this is acceptable clothing when uniform isnít required. The reasoning behind that is simple, if iScout is an acceptable alternative when non uniform is required and is promoted as such by the SA then, would a tee shirt be an acceptable alternative? Or would a tee shirt with what some might consider offensive, political, extremist, vulgar logos be acceptable?I don't follow the first part...

I would probably cross the offensive bridge if it came to it...but if you say non uniform that means just that...if there is a statement your scout wishes to make shouldn't they be allowed to!? Surely i Scout would prevent that from happening anyway!?!


Uniform isnít about pleasing the masses, it is our history, heritage, at the heart of the core values believed in and laid out by BP. There must be an end to the perception and marketing of iScouts clothing as garments that are an alternative when Uniform is not required.
I see it differently. I see uniform as a leveller...i.e. it shows that we are all of equal merit. We are a movement, we should be adapting and improving to offer the best there is. The shirt isn't the best option for adventurous activities any more.

Walsallwizard
05-04-2012, 11:40 AM
Common sense more than anything surely!?! We are going on a hike, being filmed (not quite sure why!) so we want to clearly show we are scouts...iScout shirt and a necker would be more comfortable/appropriate than shirt and necker?Why are you promoting iScout brand clothing over for example North Face, or Regatta? Surely the blind choice of only one alternative goes against the cry of common sense. It is my opinion that a Scout Shirt can be perfectly comfortable and appropriate for a hike, especially if being filmed.

I am amazed by that! I find them too warm and not well fitting enough for me to want to wear it for 90% of my scouting!The Sea Scout Leader shirt is a lighter weight material than the standard shirt I have both. The beige shirt has had its arms shortened for summer use, I got a second Sea Scout shirt that needs the same doing because I usually have cuffs rolled up.

Do your scouts feel the same way? Are they itching to get the uniform off as soon as flag break is over?Yes, they do. The Beaver and Cubs like jumpers off as soon as flag break done the Scouts do not usually bother.

I see it differently. I see uniform as a leveller...i.e. it shows that we are all of equal merit. We are a movement, we should be adapting and improving to offer the best there is. The shirt isn't the best option for adventurous activities any more. If you see Uniform as a leveller then why are you advocating using it as little as you do? Can it be improved?, yes it can. The shirt is fine for adventurous activities imho

Iscout Tee Shirt £6.50 excluding P&P £9.75 including P&P
District Official Cub Tee Shirt priced £8
Group Tee Price £7 no P&P
Over half of my Cub Pack and Group come from disadvantaged backgrounds, iScout clothing is a luxury that they cannot afford or are even really aware of. They want the Uniform and take great pride in it. My District subsidises all Uniform so the District price is lower than local stockists. Our Group have a logo’d Tee shirt and all now buy this, produced locally and utilising a tough material our YP and Parents prefer it over the Scout brand one and we are cheaper.

iScouts range of clothing sets people apart, its promotes Scouting which is good but I have the belief that the SA should start to be honest about the support it is giving to this clothing brand over and above that of all other producer of clothing. The range of clothing Scout Shops sells is limited but the SA imho is clearly associating itself with this brand and in a way that leads to the conclusion that it is seen as unofficial uniform and I do have a problem that.

shiftypete
05-04-2012, 12:00 PM
iScouts range of clothing sets people apart, its promotes Scouting which is good but I have the belief that the SA should start to be honest about the support it is giving to this clothing brand over and above that of all other producer of clothing. The range of clothing Scout Shops sells is limited but the SA imho is clearly associating itself with this brand and in a way that leads to the conclusion that it is seen as unofficial uniform and I do have a problem that.
How is TSA being dishonest? It owns the iScout brand and has them made so it is fairly clear that its going to promote its own products over those of other producers and retailers.

I have no problem with the existence of the iScout range and if people want to buy the and wear them that is fine. The only problem I have is where it is worn at or for publicity events when Uniform would have been perfectly suitable to wear (e.g. TV studio interviews) and the almost subliminal adsvertised idea that iScout stuff can be worn instead of Uniform rather than when Uniform is not approriate.

jshirra
05-04-2012, 12:37 PM
Why are you promoting iScout brand clothing over for example North Face, or Regatta? Surely the blind choice of only one alternative goes against the cry of common sense. It is my opinion that a Scout Shirt can be perfectly comfortable and appropriate for a hike, especially if being filmed.nowhere does North Face or Regatta say "SCOUT"!


The Sea Scout Leader shirt is a lighter weight material than the standard shirt I have both. The beige shirt has had its arms shortened for summer use, I got a second Sea Scout shirt that needs the same doing because I usually have cuffs rolled up.Most of us don't have the choice of the Sea Scout shirt though!

Yes, they do. The Beaver and Cubs like jumpers off as soon as flag break done the Scouts do not usually bother.That doesn't sound like they are proud of their uniform...jumpers off as soon as flag break is done/not bothered aren't the images of pride to me! Maybe if it was more practical/suitable they may keep it on willingly?

If you see Uniform as a leveller then why are you advocating using it as little as you do? Can it be improved?, yes it can. The shirt is fine for adventurous activities imho

Iscout Tee Shirt £6.50 excluding P&P £9.75 including P&P
District Official Cub Tee Shirt priced £8
Group Tee Price £7 no P&P
Over half of my Cub Pack and Group come from disadvantaged backgrounds, iScout clothing is a luxury that they cannot afford or are even really aware of. They want the Uniform and take great pride in it. My District subsidises all Uniform so the District price is lower than local stockists. Our Group have a logo’d Tee shirt and all now buy this, produced locally and utilising a tough material our YP and Parents prefer it over the Scout brand one and we are cheaper.That is good prices for your Tees. Having said that if the district did an order for £100 (16 shirts) they wouldn't pay P&P which puts them cheaper than your group and district Tees...


iScouts range of clothing sets people apart, its promotes Scouting which is good but I have the belief that the SA should start to be honest about the support it is giving to this clothing brand over and above that of all other producer of clothing. The range of clothing Scout Shops sells is limited but the SA imho is clearly associating itself with this brand and in a way that leads to the conclusion that it is seen as unofficial uniform and I do have a problem that.
What!?! Should Northface also promote Berghaus? They produce perfectly good stuff...but no money they make goes straight back into scouting...

Walsallwizard
05-04-2012, 12:52 PM
How is TSA being dishonest? It owns the iScout brand and has them made so it is fairly clear that its going to promote its own products over those of other producers and retailers.The lack of honesty for me lies in the promotion of iScout bradn clothing as “an alternative when official uniform is not required”, this gives the implication that the iScout brand is unofficial Uniform and this is clearly not the case.

shiftypete
05-04-2012, 12:56 PM
I don't quite understand, if its promoted as an alternative when Official Uniform is not required surely that is making fairly clear that it is NOT Uniform whether official or unofficial.

I am far more bothered about the impression given that iScout stuff can be worn in place of Uniform by it being used when IMHO Uniform should be.

Walsallwizard
05-04-2012, 01:10 PM
nowhere does North Face or Regatta say "SCOUT"!
So your answer is you won’t promote other brands although they may be better because it doesn’t have a word in it? The SA make money from iScouts brand clothing and that is why they promote them over and above other Brands they may sell, that does not necessarily make them any better for the activity.

That doesn't sound like they are proud of their uniform...jumpers off as soon as flag break is done/not bothered aren't the images of pride to me! Maybe if it was more practical/suitable they may keep it on willingly? you asked if the Beavers and Cubs were proud of their uniform, YES they are. Some Cubs do like jumpers off but perhaps I shouldn’t have written as soon as flag break is done, they are still on parade at that point and at the alert. Following flag break we usually have a briefing on what the night’s activities will be. If it’s quieter activities jumpers rarely come off, if its running around games some Cubs take them off before they start, others during the game and a couple keep them on.

What!?! Should Northface also promote Berghaus? They produce perfectly good stuff...but no money they make goes straight back into scouting...I agree with you on that but answer me the following on this please?

Should the SA be promoting iScouts brand clothing as unofficial uniform either intentionally or unintentionally?

If you believe that the SA should promote iScouts brand clothing should this be listed in POR as activity wear preferred by the SA?

------ Update --- The Following was Added within 30 Minutes of the above ---


I don't quite understand, if its promoted as an alternative when Official Uniform is not required surely that is making fairly clear that it is NOT Uniform whether official or unofficial.

I am far more bothered about the impression given that iScout stuff can be worn in place of Uniform by it being used when IMHO Uniform should be.

Pete, the wording of the promotion on the sales and indeed the press release imho identify iScouts Brand (in this case the hoodie dress) as an alternative to Offical Uniform, this creates a link to the Uniform.
If the approach had been that this was social fashionable clothing based on scouting there is no link to Uniform.

shiftypete
05-04-2012, 01:19 PM
So by mentioning its not Uniform it links it to Uniform :confused:

Sorry I really don't follow your logic on this one and we probably have a similar view on Uniform and the iScout stuff

jshirra
05-04-2012, 01:30 PM
So your answer is you won’t promote other brands although they may be better because it doesn’t have a word in it? The SA make money from iScouts brand clothing and that is why they promote them over and above other Brands they may sell, that does not necessarily make them any better for the activity.No - often other brands are promoted through Scouting Plus I've noticed. However, for PR, having SCOUT printed across your front must help!

you asked if the Beavers and Cubs were proud of their uniform, YES they are. Some Cubs do like jumpers off but perhaps I shouldn’t have written as soon as flag break is done, they are still on parade at that point and at the alert. Following flag break we usually have a briefing on what the night’s activities will be. If it’s quieter activities jumpers rarely come off, if its running around games some Cubs take them off before they start, others during the game and a couple keep them on. sorry - I did misrepresent what you said. However, that does show me that it isn't appropriate wear unless it is a quiet night...

I agree with you on that but answer me the following on this please?

Should the SA be promoting iScouts brand clothing as unofficial uniform either intentionally or unintentionally?

If you believe that the SA should promote iScouts brand clothing should this be listed in POR as activity wear preferred by the SA?

Q1. iScout isn't uniform officially or unofficially. Therefore it shouldn't be promoted as such.

Q2. No it shouldn't. We are big enough and mature enough to decide what we want to wear. I don't need POR to tell me to wear a T-Shirt when I want to wear a T-Shirt.

Walsallwizard
05-04-2012, 01:41 PM
So by mentioning its not Uniform it links it to Uniform :confused:

Sorry I really don't follow your logic on this one and we probably have a similar view on Uniform and the iScout stuff

Ok here’s an example of how it works.
Unite vote on a strike by tanker drivers and it passes.
The Prime Minister, offering sensible advice, says fill up when you can, however another Minister used the word “panic”
The news media carry story’s over what happened during previous tanker driver strike and what happens? There were fuel shortages because the message was misunderstood (or was it? but that's conspiracy theory).
I can’t remember the name for it in marketing terms but there is a process that uses this type of negative association marketing

So the SA say this item is alternative to uniform, therefore it is uniform of some description! I hope you can you see how the link is created; it was a concept that took me a while to understand?

shiftypete
05-04-2012, 02:00 PM
So really TSA is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Either they put a disclaimer on saying its not official uniform which apparently subliminally means it actually is Uniform or they don't use a disclaimer and people then assume that as it doesn't say its not uniform then it can be used as such.

I don't have a problem with how its marketed I have a problem with how it is used by TSA which IMHO does muddy the waters.

Walsallwizard
05-04-2012, 02:17 PM
No not at all the SA should rightly be promoting iScout clothing, what they should not be doing is making any link to it as Uniform even by the use of a disclaimer.
A couple of examples:
“The iScout hoodie dress is a great item to wear around camp and for activities” or
“The iScout hoodie dress an alternative item to wear when official scout uniform is not required”
The first line clearly associates with adventure and activities, the second identifies with uniform, the first one is acceptable to me the second is not.

The Chief Commissioner, Chief Scout and all those that represent the SA should imho be in Uniform when dealing with the news media and when out and about meeting and greeting Scouts, they should not be informally dressed. Would it not be better to see Bear Grylls getting prepared and changing into appropriate gear for activities?

gingst
05-04-2012, 02:30 PM
My Beavers wear their full uniform whatever the occasion, be it Church Parade, flag break, games, handiwork, scout craft or camp and it’s no matter if we’re mucking about round the Church or in the Hall or in even in the woods burning stuff or possibly in the Hall and maybe the Church burning stuff and they go home reeking of smoke and dead animals. It’s a practical solution; one uniform equals one set of clothes to wash, patch, darn and iron for the following week. Why do they need anything else to stink up?

Chris Hobbs
08-04-2012, 06:30 PM
Hi. I was DELIGHTED to see a dress back in the scouting uniform but only came online to say how disappointed I was that the dress seems only for Muslim girls. But! NO! I can have one! DELIGHTED again!
As a Cub Scout Leader I was always more comfortable in my dress and (when climbing trees) my culottes. I feel most uncomfortable wearing trousers. I also suffer from the cold, particularly around the waste and hips. I can't wait to get my hoddie. It looks and sounds just what I want, need, love. Well done girls for designing it.

Walsallwizard
08-04-2012, 08:57 PM
It isn’t uniform!

If iirc a girlfriend had a couple of hoodie dresses in the 80’s