Bad behaviour

**jen** · 22-06-2009, 09:42 PM

Hello!
I've just started running a cub group, but there's one lad whos behaviour is particualy poor. He argues against every activity that we do and is as disruptive as possible during each activity that he doesn't see the 'point' of. If he himself choose not to do the activity I wouldn't be as concerned but he takes the surrounding few with him each time, I don't think the activities are the issue as the rest seem to enjoy them and were all very proud of their fathers day hedgehogs last week for instance. The usual quiet word and splitting up from friends have no effect with this lad so I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas of how we can control the behaviour a bit? Please help!

Jen (Baloo)

**Raksha** · 22-06-2009, 09:49 PM

How old is he and are there any know problems either at home or at School, has he been in the Pack for long?
Try speaking to him and finding out what activities he likes to do (we have Cubs who don't enjoy craft, but love cooking and vice versa for example).
Can you talk to the parents? Does he enjoy Cubs or is he there because his parents want him to be there?
You could try peer pressure, and rewarding good behaviour of the others and any good behaviour by this child. It need only be a verbal recognition of good behaviour. Most children will respond to this.
One other thing you can do is ask the parent to stay and support you.

**jen** · 22-06-2009, 10:13 PM

He's 9 and has been in the pack from beavers. There are no problems that I know of, though his older brother does have some learning difficulties so I think he is often wanting to be the centre of attention when he can be. He says that he enjoys cubs and he's usually well behaved when it comes to the games aslong as his teams winning. I've started refusing to talk over them if they are talk and as a result of that often he is now being told to be quiet by his own peers rather than us. We do try and praise him but it's hard when he refuses to cooperate from the begining. I haven't tried talking to the parents yet as I am new to the group and am also still quite young so almost don't feel it is my place. Although I am running the group at the moment I am not Akela, she is there each week but it is run by me mainly.

**DonTregartha** · 22-06-2009, 10:45 PM

You need to speak to the parents.

if you don't feel that confident about that, ask your GSL to come and observe.

My cub team asked me to do that. In the end, they had the confidence to raise the issue themselves with the parent.

Don't put up with poor behaviour.

Operate a three strikes and you're out system and call the parent there and then to take him home.

I know a lot of leaders have a lot of patience with rubbish behaviour but I don't .

Why should great scouting be ruined by kids who have no sense of what is appropriate.

The vast majority of kids in scouting know what is right and what is wrong and can listen and have fun.

**Spike** · 22-06-2009, 10:46 PM

It sounds to me that you need to get this cub to sign up to a cub camp with a smallish number of cubs attending (say a dozen) often this sort of opportunity allows the cub to appreciate that there are other children enjoying a different side of the scouting that he/she is. (it's not too late to think about a camp of this size for the summer holidays, it could be a long weekend, say 2-3 nights). I've seen so many cubs change their ways simply by having been to camp.
It will also allow the cub to get to know you and other leaders and therefore build up that much needed mutual respect.

**Penny E** · 22-06-2009, 10:54 PM

Hi Jen, and welcome!

Make sure that you have a clear disciplinary policy for a start, and that the Cubs and parents understand it. If you PM me with your email address I can send our Group policy over to you, but broadly it is "3 strikes and you're out", as Don says.

If the boy is disruptive during Grand howl and formal activities, ask him to come and sit in front of you, facing you.

If he argues with the proposed activity, say immediately "Ok Johnny, you can sit out in that case", and get someone to supervise him while he does so. He can then sit in a corner and get bored as his reward. (Find some Explorers or DofE's to help at your pack - they are very useful for things like that!)

Once he realises that he is just going to be pulled out of everything that is fun or enjoyable when he behaves badly I think that he will start to toe the line fairly swiftly. It will also resolve the problem of the others following suit, and the other Cubs will appreciate the fact that you are back in control of him.

**Raksha** · 22-06-2009, 10:54 PM

OK. sounds like a case of been there done that, show me something new! The waiting for them to be quiet will work, and is already. Praise, even for a small thing like smiling is a wonderful tool and very effective.
What does Akela think of this child? Is she also peturbed or is she not worried.
Is he a seconder or sixer? can you use this as a tool to get him to come round? Ask him if he wants to be a seconder, if the answer is yes, then ask him what he thinks he needs to do to be considered for the role, show or tell him what you expect and hold it out as a realistic goal.
This has worked for one of ours recently, he is trying very very hard. He has been given his seconder stripe, but is very well aware that it can (and will be if required) taken away in the event of poor behaviour. He has turned into an effective seconder and will step into a sixer role happily if his sixer is away.
I still think talk to him and find out what he enjoys doing and use it as a reward for coping with the stuff he doesnt like, ask him to undertake a special role such as getting the equipment out for the next thing.
Good luck, and there will be lots of other good ideas that will be winging your way when the others post!

**Shaun** · 23-06-2009, 08:53 AM

At the risk of sounding extremely old fashioned.....

Any back chat, stop the activity, take him out of the activity and make him stand in the corner - facing away from the activity.

I have one child who has moments like this, unfortunately I can't speak to the parents as it's my son!

I know it is because he get's bored with some of the activities, he's desperate to move on to Scouts (and he's still 8). He also doesn't like it that I can't give him as much of my attention as he normally get's.

It probably works in my favour with the rest of the pack because they see me doing it to him and don't chance it themselves.

As for talking when I am talking, I tell them that as they are talking they aren't listening and I start from the beginning. On one memorable occassion I spent 20 minutes explaining the game. Stopped explaining and moved onto the next activity as there was no time left. Didn't need to do it for a while as they became self regulating.

Cubs will challenge you, the wolf paqck is a good analogy, if you are new and slightly nervous they will pick up on it and try to play on it. Be 'bad cop' for a bit and then ease back slowly, but always be ready to become 'bad cop' at the slightest challenge. In Akela's absence you are the Alpha animal and should ensure that the cubs know that.

**Watcher** · 23-06-2009, 08:54 AM

If it is spoiling the Scouting of the other Cubs then kick him out. Give him and his parents some warnings if you like but at the end of the day you have to think of the whole pack.

M

**Howslo** · 23-06-2009, 11:54 AM

A bit extreme perhaps, but worth considering if nothing else works. I can only remember one being excluded during my time as a leader. He didn't listen to the point where my wife (BSL) asked the lad's uncle if he had any hearing problems.

In my experience, when they misbehave to that extent, its because they don't enjoy it, and lets face it, its not for everyone.

Oddly enough, on the few occasions we've had to speak to parents about behaviour, the child seems to leave soon after...

**Testarossa** · 23-06-2009, 01:09 PM

Hi Jen,

I've been there, but with 1/2 Pack of rowdy kids! It is hard work, but it can be sorted out.

First of all, how many are in your Pack and how many Leaders do you have?

I sat down and got the whole Pack to write a Code of Conduct in their Sixes. They wrote the rules down in their own words. Never change the wording, or it becomes YOUR code of conduct and not theirs. Ask them what kinds of behaviour annoy them, and what kinds of behaviour annoys the Leaders. To make Cubs a happier place for everyone, what behaviours can we STOP doing, and what behaviours do we want to START doing. There is nothing wrong with having a stop and a start list.

Once they have written their rules in this way, they can then decide what sanctions they feel are appropriate. I have 5 Sixes, and they all more or less came up with the same thing

1. warning
2. If the behaviour doesn't stop, they sit out of the next activity
3. If the behaviour still doesn't stop, they sit out for the rest of the meeting and the Leader speaks to parents
4. Stiil doesn't stop, miss a meeting
5. Banned from Cubs (Their words, not mine)

They must then, each and every one of them, sign to say they will abide by the rules.

Up until the 3rd point, any behaviour issues/sanctions end at that meeting. The child comes back the next meeting with a clean slate. If not, you end up with resentment and worse behaviour.

The list gets displayed on the wall in the hut so the kids and Leaders can all see it.

I then put one Leader/Young Leader or parent helper with each Six. At flag break/grand howl etc, that adult stands behind their Six and are responsible for the behaviour of their Six, NOT the person running the evening. You cannot have eyes all over the place when you are trying to run a meeting. If we split off into Sixes for activities, that adult goes with them.

We now only have a couple of kids that misbehave. One is Autistic, and another is just a devious little monkey who is a quiet, but sneaky bully. Their adult pulls them out as neccessary and sits them in the corner quietly while the rest of the Pack continue with activities.

This has been in now for almost 2 years and I haven't yet had to exclude anyone. If they get annoyed about having to sit out, we just say, "Your rules, not mine".

We renew the rules every year as the kids change, but each year, they come up with pretty much the same thing.

I've only ever had to speak to 2 parents and that was after a camp and was about the same incident, so not bad going from the Pack from Hell.

A lot of it can be down to how much support you have and how much support can be given to the kids who are problems. If the above doesn't work, you will get to point 4 and have to speak to his parents.

By the way, have you done the Challenging Behaviour module? I would recommend doing that one as a course as you can throw ideas around with other Leaders who may have had the same problem and been able to solve it.

**jen** · 23-06-2009, 11:17 PM

Firstly thankyou all so much for your response.

I think in regards to actually kicking him out, well I think thats a bit extreme really, and that his behaviour probably can be tamed. I think the 3 strikes and your out is a good idea, but I love the idea of having the cubs write their own rules and sanctions for breaking them. That way they can hardly say its unfair when that's what they choose to do. There's 15 of the cubs in total and myself, the main leader, and 3 regular YLs, but it is myself and the YLs who run the nights. Also although I think the idea of starting again with the explanations would be a really good idea as I think they'd soon get bored of it, however I'm not quite sure if I've got the patience for that!

**Howslo** · 24-06-2009, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Testarossa

Hi Jen,

I've been there, but with 1/2 Pack of rowdy kids! It is hard work, but it can be sorted out.

First of all, how many are in your Pack and how many Leaders do you have?

I sat down and got the whole Pack to write a Code of Conduct in their Sixes. They wrote the rules down in their own words. Never change the wording, or it becomes YOUR code of conduct and not theirs. Ask them what kinds of behaviour annoy them, and what kinds of behaviour annoys the Leaders. To make Cubs a happier place for everyone, what behaviours can we STOP doing, and what behaviours do we want to START doing. There is nothing wrong with having a stop and a start list.

Once they have written their rules in this way, they can then decide what sanctions they feel are appropriate. I have 5 Sixes, and they all more or less came up with the same thing

1. warning
2. If the behaviour doesn't stop, they sit out of the next activity
3. If the behaviour still doesn't stop, they sit out for the rest of the meeting and the Leader speaks to parents
4. Stiil doesn't stop, miss a meeting
5. Banned from Cubs (Their words, not mine)

They must then, each and every one of them, sign to say they will abide by the rules.

Up until the 3rd point, any behaviour issues/sanctions end at that meeting. The child comes back the next meeting with a clean slate. If not, you end up with resentment and worse behaviour.

The list gets displayed on the wall in the hut so the kids and Leaders can all see it.

I then put one Leader/Young Leader or parent helper with each Six. At flag break/grand howl etc, that adult stands behind their Six and are responsible for the behaviour of their Six, NOT the person running the evening. You cannot have eyes all over the place when you are trying to run a meeting. If we split off into Sixes for activities, that adult goes with them.

We now only have a couple of kids that misbehave. One is Autistic, and another is just a devious little monkey who is a quiet, but sneaky bully. Their adult pulls them out as neccessary and sits them in the corner quietly while the rest of the Pack continue with activities.

This has been in now for almost 2 years and I haven't yet had to exclude anyone. If they get annoyed about having to sit out, we just say, "Your rules, not mine".

We renew the rules every year as the kids change, but each year, they come up with pretty much the same thing.

I've only ever had to speak to 2 parents and that was after a camp and was about the same incident, so not bad going from the Pack from Hell.

A lot of it can be down to how much support you have and how much support can be given to the kids who are problems. If the above doesn't work, you will get to point 4 and have to speak to his parents.

By the way, have you done the Challenging Behaviour module? I would recommend doing that one as a course as you can throw ideas around with other Leaders who may have had the same problem and been able to solve it.

I have to say, that is a very good idea. I may well use that with my Scouts.

**ianjames** · 24-06-2009, 04:17 PM

We use the three strikes and miss a along with the option of a naughty area which if needs be can be out of the hall which stops them disrupting the rest of the group. The time frame can be altered depending on what has been done. Once he finds that the only person who is loosing out is him and he no longer is the centre of attraction he may well fall into line.

**Bushfella** · 25-06-2009, 10:17 AM

I'd almost forgotten how self educational it can be to take part in Escouts discussions.

I was going to suggest a public rollicking "pour encourager les autres". It works for us.

I thought, where did that come from? So I looked.

It comes from Voltaire/s Candide and in full is. "dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres"

(In that country (England), it is good from time to time, to kill an admiral to encourage the others."

The reference is to Admiral Byng who was executed for negligence in an action which lost Minorca to the French.

Which lends irony to the quote in Paths Of Glory where a British Officer asks the French why they insist on the triple execution and he responde, "Pour encourager les autres".

One post and my knowledge is expanded