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  1. #46
    AGSL Russell Corrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by washathi View Post
    Are there new Groups that need lots of direct intervention?
    Intervention (with the exception of immediate CP issue) should be done behind closed doors, or at very least whisper in the ear.

    There are none of us that are such great leaders that we have the right to criticise other leaders in front of their charges (and if there are I'm sure they would know not to do it!)
    Russell Corrie
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rat28 View Post
    I know what you mean there GreenAkela, my group didn't attend St George's day parade this year due to leader availability & in report sent out to SAS,GSL's etc, DC said "I wish I could name and shame the five groups that had no representatives in attendance, but as we are a voluntary organisation, unfortunately I can't but they know who they are!" Yes those were his actual words!
    It can all seem a bit "glass half empty" sometimes - you run a great programme, great camps, happy kids, happy parents, lots of kids wanting to join - and noone seems to notice. You miss out on an event like St Georges Day and suddenly everyone notices very much and not in a nice way.
    Washathi, CSL 14th Southampton
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBaloo View Post
    Paul, I don't disagree with what you say, but in post #9 GreenAkela says "Because wtih the District things .. it's expected that we are there and we're let known that we should be there."

    I am sure that you would agree that it should be up to the Groups/sections whether or not they attend District events and should not be expected by "District" that all groups will attend all events. It should not matter to "District" whether or not groups attend a particular event, other than to find out why they didn't attend, so that the programme of District events can be reviewed and adjusted as necessary.
    sort of, but it should be upto the YP to decide if they want to come. even if the leaders cant come and support and event, why not make it available to the YP and explain that they can either come with another group or ask distrcit to se if they can come wihtout a leader, thats what we try and do. Unfortunatly I have been on the end of some complaints where YP and parents come to me and ask why couldnt little johny go to camp? as his mates who are in other groups are going. Of course I explain about leaders limited time etc, but sometime I know that the true reason is the leaders have blinkers on and belive that if they dont want to do an event then there YP wont either. which of course is not always the case.
    Paul Austin
    Kent Scouts SASU Water team
    G0AXQ, intrests in Scouting, Cycling, Hiking, anything on the water. seeing the young people achive.

  4. #49
    Senior Member Hathi_Cambridge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    sort of, but it should be upto the YP to decide if they want to come. even if the leaders cant come and support and event, why not make it available to the YP and explain that they can either come with another group or ask distrcit to se if they can come wihtout a leader, thats what we try and do. Unfortunatly I have been on the end of some complaints where YP and parents come to me and ask why couldnt little johny go to camp? as his mates who are in other groups are going. Of course I explain about leaders limited time etc, but sometime I know that the true reason is the leaders have blinkers on and belive that if they dont want to do an event then there YP wont either. which of course is not always the case.

    Hmmm.

    If the leadership team are nable to support an event (duue to time constraints) that usually means what it says.

    Are you suggesting the YP/parents should just turn-up at (or sign-up for) a district event and expect everything to be ready? If I am taking a group of YP to an event I have to prepare equipment, contact information, letters for parents etc..., but I am comfortable that if I have forgotten something I will be in a posiiton to sort it out.

    If I'm organising parents to take the YP then I still have all the admin., I miss out on the event, and I am not there to resolve any incidents caused by my forgetfulness.

    It is not such an easy option. I am considering sending my Scouts to a County Camp unaccompanied this summer and I am glad I have 3 months to prepare.

    A question for Testarossa:

    "Are your District team young, enthusiastic full of good intentions but not particularly good communicators?"

    I just wonder if they are unaware of the impact of all their activities.

  5. #50
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    It is just me that is seeing a lot of 'us & them' attitude towards districts in this - whereas you'd kind of hope the idea would be to work together rather than providing duplicate of work and activities.

    District events can be gret - and the value to the young people of bigger events and mixing with others from outside their section shouldn't be underestimated but surely that doesn't mean you have to do everything twice.

    If hypothetically, you have a section camp every half term - then rather than seeing the district camp as an extra weekend that's occupied, why not have that as your camp that term. Similarly with hikes etc.

    Meetings have a tendancy to grow arms & legs and take over people's lives if their not kept on top of. Camp meetings, group leaders meetings, planning meetings, exec meetings, AGMs etc don't all need to be on separate nights. Even if they don't have exactly the same people at them.

  6. #51
    Assistant ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    I shudder at the thought if having more than one meeting one after the other on the same evening apart from programme planning and camp meetings.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Friday ESU & ABSL and Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.co.uk

    Bookings Secretary - Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  7. #52
    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    sort of, but it should be upto the YP to decide if they want to come. even if the leaders cant come and support and event, why not make it available to the YP and explain that they can either come with another group or ask distrcit to se if they can come wihtout a leader, thats what we try and do. Unfortunatly I have been on the end of some complaints where YP and parents come to me and ask why couldnt little johny go to camp? as his mates who are in other groups are going. Of course I explain about leaders limited time etc, but sometime I know that the true reason is the leaders have blinkers on and belive that if they dont want to do an event then there YP wont either. which of course is not always the case.
    I understand what you are saying and that some leaders might not wish to do an event and that should not stand in the way of the yp, but……………as Hathi_Cambridge has pointed out, if the yp decide they want to come, who does the paperwork, collects the money etc? And if it is a district event where a group is expected to provide an activity, base etc. how do the other group leaders feel, fi they have yp from another group that hasn’t sent any leaders to the event?

    And with respect, you should be directing the complaining parents back to the Group. There is little you can do as DC to compel groups to attend a district event, and hopefully at group level, the reasons could be properly explained and who knows, perhaps the parents could be persuaded to support the group in some way, so that their little Johny could go to camp!

    ------ Update --- The Following was Added within 30 Minutes of the above ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Scary Monster View Post
    It is just me that is seeing a lot of 'us & them' attitude towards districts in this - whereas you'd kind of hope the idea would be to work together rather than providing duplicate of work and activities...............
    I am not sure there is a lot of an 'us & them' attitude being shown here, rather more, in the case of Greenakela and Testarossa's district it would seem to be a case of 'these are the District events and you are expected to attend' - see Greenakela's post #9 - that surely cannot be the way to run a district.

    And I agree the idea should be to work together but it would seem that, in some districts at least, this is not the case.
    Peter

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  8. #53
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    it should be upto the YP to decide if they want to come. even if the leaders cant come and support and event, why not make it available to the YP and explain that they can either come with another group or ask distrcit to se if they can come wihtout a leader, thats what we try and do. Unfortunatly I have been on the end of some complaints where YP and parents come to me and ask why couldnt little johny go to camp? as his mates who are in other groups are going. Of course I explain about leaders limited time etc, but sometime I know that the true reason is the leaders have blinkers on and belive that if they dont want to do an event then there YP wont either. which of course is not always the case.
    In an ideal world, but Paul, we do not live in an ideal world. Let me give you some examples of what has happened here...

    I took another Leader's Scouts on camp. They went back to him afterwards and demanded to know whay they hadn't had this badge or that badge, and why they didn't do this or that camp. The Leader explained that he didn't have our resources and that he was doing what he could. It wasn't enough and his Scouts quit. The thing is, he was a damned good Leader and had we not helped out his Scouts would have been as happy as pigs in pooh, but they saw greener grass and that was it.

    We had another Troops Scouts with us. Let's just say that what they called well behaved was not what I called well behaved. Result, relationship breakdown.

    We ran a District trip to Belgium when I was joint DC, there were two from the other DC's Troop and 22 from my Group. One troop didn't have anyone of age, so fair enough, another Group I am told advised allegedly against their Scouts taking part and another had five coming, but when they didn't mix well in training they all dropped out. (Their SL has only involved his Scouts in one District activity in 18 years - so is it any wonder that his Scouts didn't mix?).

    I sent Explorers to another Group (this happened twice) to do YL, after a couple of weeks they came back and said, "We are not going back, can we be YL here instead?" I asked why? Apparently the Leaders gave them nothing to do, but constantly asked about what we were doing at our Group and slagging the Group off. (This has not been restricted to YL, but also to younger adults who felt that their appearence at District was only seen as a chance for people to take a pop at the Group and me in particular. They no longer go to these meetings).

    I agree, we SHOULD be able to send our kids with other Leaders, but increasingly it doesn't happen because we are not cohesive, and also, there are parental trust issues.They may trust me with Smithy, but they don't know the guy along the road from Adam, so why would they allow their son to go with him? Him being an Scouter is not really good enough a reason any more.
    Ewan Scott

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  9. #54
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    sort of, but it should be upto the YP to decide if they want to come. even if the leaders cant come and support and event, why not make it available to the YP and explain that they can either come with another group or ask distrcit to se if they can come wihtout a leader, thats what we try and do. Unfortunatly I have been on the end of some complaints where YP and parents come to me and ask why couldnt little johny go to camp? as his mates who are in other groups are going. Of course I explain about leaders limited time etc, but sometime I know that the true reason is the leaders have blinkers on and belive that if they dont want to do an event then there YP wont either. which of course is not always the case.
    In principle, yes, but there are many issues which prevent this. Partly, Groups rarely have enough extra leaders to be able look after another Group's YP as well as their own, and they all work differently. So whilst it may seem like a good ide, in the end it usually doesn't work out. Not to mention that many parents won't send their child away with a Leader they don't know.
    Chris Hawes, ASL and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group; Webmaster, Watford North Scout District.
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  10. #55
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    The idea of sending kids without a leader is fine... until you think about it...

    i have smithy who tends to wander off and climb things... and to get very high up those things... often with something sharp about his person...
    i have smithy who can't mix with smithy because they "hate each other" but gravitate towards each instantly
    i have smithy who is just a naughty kid and probably shouldn't be in scouts but i can always hope that we will have a positive effect
    i have lots of smithies and without a leader from my group there, i am not sure that we can look after them properly...

    maybe i could pick the 50% of my scouts who will probably be perfect but even they have issues... there is autistic smithy, dyspraxic smithy, illiterate smithy, bad-bladder smithy etc etc... their parents trust me to look after them... i look after them well but delegating their care for a weekend? I would find that difficult...

    scouts should be with their leader... it is the way that the model works...

  11. #56
    Group Dogsbody Bagheera28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by washathi View Post
    . You miss out on an event like St Georges Day and suddenly everyone notices very much and not in a nice way.
    Let me ask you something, would you spend the whole night at work then get up a couple of hours later for St George's Day parade especially when working again that night?!

    I know I wouldn't and neither would my GSL/CSL - he didn't so Cubs didn't go simple!


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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    Have your tried rainsing the issue at county level?
    Are the other Groups in your district in the same position, and of the same opinion?
    Our CC is aware of the issues I am personally having, but I would not speak for other Leaders.
    Other Groups? GreenAkela and I are not only in different sections, but different Groups.

  13. #58
    Group Dogsbody Bagheera28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    sort of, but it should be upto the YP to decide if they want to come. even if the leaders cant come and support and event, why not make it available to the YP and explain that they can either come with another group or ask distrcit to se if they can come wihtout a leader, thats what we try and do.
    As I've mentioned elsewhere it this thread, my group didn't attend St George's Day Parade. However as part of our districts Active Support Unit I did attend and carried the units flag. I was told by two or three different people that "your kids could have come and SAS would have looked after them, there's enough of us!"

    Oh well, I'll know for next years event if the group again decide not to go


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  14. #59
    Senior Member Smartiepants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rat28 View Post
    Let me ask you something, would you spend the whole night at work then get up a couple of hours later for St George's Day parade especially when working again that night?!
    Yes, I did this two years running when I worked nights. There is a level of commitment involved in being section leader, and St Georges day parade is extremely important in my opinion. The only one I missed was because my Grandfather had passed away 2 hours before the parade was due to start, and I was still criticised for that.

    I appreciate some people give what they can, but scouting isn't (or shouldn't be) limited to section meetings only. It's very frustrating to organise district events, which people have said they would support (or haven't bothered to come to the meeting to give their opinion either way), don't bother to offer it to their YP, and then have the cheek to post on facebook that they've been out shopping for the day. There are a number of parents who've moved their child to a different group because they're fed up of missing out on the district stuff.


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  15. #60
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartiepants View Post
    Yes, I did this two years running when I worked nights. There is a level of commitment involved in being section leader, and St Georges day parade is extremely important in my opinion. The only one I missed was because my Grandfather had passed away 2 hours before the parade was due to start, and I was still criticised for that.

    I appreciate some people give what they can, but scouting isn't (or shouldn't be) limited to section meetings only. It's very frustrating to organise district events, which people have said they would support (or haven't bothered to come to the meeting to give their opinion either way), don't bother to offer it to their YP, and then have the cheek to post on facebook that they've been out shopping for the day. There are a number of parents who've moved their child to a different group because they're fed up of missing out on the district stuff.
    yikes!

    if i choose not to got to a district event, and don't say that i'll be attending it... and don't think that my scouts should go without me...

    i will post whatever i want on facebook!

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