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  1. #46
    Moderator wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSheppard View Post
    I do know people who would, but thankfully they are not assessors!!

    However, I DO know an assessor who refuses to hand out permits to anyone under the age of 25 because they "can't possibly have had enough experience"

    That is just crazy and totally unfair if that's the only reason for not issuing a permit - surely the whole idea of the permit scheme is that it's about ability to run camps so I don't see what age has to do with it.

    So where's the supervision of the assesor - to say that's not acceptable?
    Louise

    GSL 1st Fenstanton & Hilton Scout Group www.scubes.co.uk


    TA - Cromwell District (Cambridgeshire)

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    We cannot always build the future for our youth, but we can build our youth for the future.
    -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

  2. #47
    No mountain too high PeterSheppard's Avatar
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    It's not the reason for not granting a permit - it's the reason for refusing to even do an assessment in the first place!!

    Assessor is best mates with the DC etc. Though the DC's term of office has come to an end, and we have a new DC now - will wait to see what that brings...
    Area Scout Network Commissioner/AAC Explorers - Gwent

    "Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap... but by the seeds you plant"

  3. #48
    Moderator wolfie's Avatar
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    That's even madder then!

    Fingers crossed that the changes you mention might re-introduce logic and fairplay to that then
    Louise

    GSL 1st Fenstanton & Hilton Scout Group www.scubes.co.uk


    TA - Cromwell District (Cambridgeshire)

    Media Manager - Cubjam2016

    We cannot always build the future for our youth, but we can build our youth for the future.
    -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

  4. #49
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    OK, Guys - nobody is going to like this but....... why the heck does anybody need an assessment or a permit? Whose mad idea was this? No responsible Scout Leader is going to try to do something he/she has not had years of experience of doing with others who have taught the skills and no one in their right mind would try to run something that they were not sure of when the safety and welfare of children was concerned.

    The very idea of permits suggests that there are leaders who might be daft enough to try things that they have not done before with their elders and betters. Which one of us could be so irresponsible as to try that?

    I was out of Scouting for fifteen years for health reasons. Coming back, I cannot believe the restrictions placed on leaders - permit for this, course for that, module for the other. What the hell happened to good old fashioned common sense? In my day, if you did not have that then, 'bye-bye'!

    Half the District looks at the Woodbadge I wear and says that it is not a 'proper Woodbadge' because I haven't done Module 30a section g, or whatever - OK, but they did not build an aerial runway or get soaked on a self-built raft or bivouac in a thunderstorm at Gilwell or lead 20 Scouts up Ben Nevis in the snow for theirs! (I did!).

    (My views, not those of the SA!)

  5. #50
    Senior Member Mountainboy's Avatar
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    I think an assessment & permit scheme is a good thing so long as it is used well, treated as a nurturing & enabling tool as opposed to a hammer to beat up 'new' leaders.

    I understand your frustration though... all said & done Scout paperwork isn't too heinous unless district add their own levels of bureaucracy!

  6. #51
    Moderator jshirra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dramatist View Post
    why the heck does anybody need an assessment or a permit?
    It's all about Due Diligence these days!

    if i get my leg broken at work, if they have not trained me in the art of not breaking my leg, they will be liable to me suing them!

    If you lose 1/2 your kids on a camp, the rest get severe food poisoning and there is a dollop of H&S issues around just for good measure (axes on the floor, litter everywhere, bogs not tended too etc etc) then, if you have been trained on how to do it properly, it is your fault for not following the guidelines. However, if you are allowed to do it without training, it is the Scout Associations fault. If you do it anyway without having done the training, its again your fault!

    Don't forget, this is a age where a burglar can sue someone if they damage themselves on their property while robbing it! If the Scout Association doesn't cover itself, then there will be NO Scout Association to cover!

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jshirra View Post
    Don't forget, this is a age where a burglar can sue someone if they damage themselves on their property while robbing it! If the Scout Association doesn't cover itself, then there will be NO Scout Association to cover!
    If a burglar injures himself/herself breaking into my house then serves them bl**dy well right - and if my country thinks it is my fault then it is time to leave for somewhere where the laws reflect common sense! (See you all in Mozambique or wherever!)
    Last edited by Dramatist; 30-05-2008 at 10:21 PM.

  8. #53
    Senior Member Airobat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dramatist View Post
    OK, Guys - nobody is going to like this but....... why the heck does anybody need an assessment or a permit? Whose mad idea was this? No responsible Scout Leader is going to try to do something he/she has not had years of experience of doing with others who have taught the skills and no one in their right mind would try to run something that they were not sure of when the safety and welfare of children was concerned.

    The very idea of permits suggests that there are leaders who might be daft enough to try things that they have not done before with their elders and betters. Which one of us could be so irresponsible as to try that?

    I was out of Scouting for fifteen years for health reasons. Coming back, I cannot believe the restrictions placed on leaders - permit for this, course for that, module for the other. What the hell happened to good old fashioned common sense? In my day, if you did not have that then, 'bye-bye'!

    Half the District looks at the Woodbadge I wear and says that it is not a 'proper Woodbadge' because I haven't done Module 30a section g, or whatever - OK, but they did not build an aerial runway or get soaked on a self-built raft or bivouac in a thunderstorm at Gilwell or lead 20 Scouts up Ben Nevis in the snow for theirs! (I did!).

    (My views, not those of the SA!)

    You did have a permit of a sort - you filled in an application form that went to your DC and then your camp was inspected - each time. Also, having done the activities doesn't mean that you did them properly/safely. If you're that confident in your abilities then why are you resisting assessments. Please be aware that this is slightly tongue in cheek and is not meant as a personal attack in any form.
    And I have seen leaders trying to do things beyond their abilities (might even be looking in a mirror at this point). I had a leader who applied for a green field permit. He had never run a camp but had taken his family and their trailer tent to France.
    Last edited by Airobat; 31-05-2008 at 07:39 AM.

  9. #54
    Scout Leader (Bosun) Nick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dramatist View Post
    OK, Guys - nobody is going to like this but....... why the heck does anybody need an assessment or a permit? Whose mad idea was this? No responsible Scout Leader is going to try to do something he/she has not had years of experience of doing with others who have taught the skills and no one in their right mind would try to run something that they were not sure of when the safety and welfare of children was concerned. ............................................ What the hell happened to good old fashioned common sense? .........................................
    I used to be in a Mountain Rescue Team in the Peak District and on numerous occassions dealt with incidents where people had not used their common sense. Nobody goes out trying to get lost or trying to get themselves injured or killed. Believe me that once you have put a dead 10 year old boy into a body bag you never ever want to do it again. Permits and assessments ensure that you have a basic competance and work to a safe standard.

    Yes permits can be a pain, especially when you haven't got one. Go on the course, have fun and learn something!

    Nick

  10. #55
    Moderator jshirra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dramatist View Post
    If a burglar injures himself/herself breaking into my house then serves them bl**dy well right - and if my country thinks it is my fault then it is time to leave for somewhere where the laws reflect common sense! (See you all in Mozambique or wherever!)
    i believe that that is in America but:

    here: a motorcyclist, hits a little girl, kills her, then sues the family for his injuries!

    also: it is against the law to shake a collecting tin on the street because you are disturbing the piece!

    I think i might join you in Mozambique or wherever!

  11. #56
    Escouts Team MikeJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jshirra View Post
    also: it is against the law to shake a collecting tin on the street because you are disturbing the piece!
    Its something like that, think it may be enticement or something.

    I have shaken a collecting tin in the street though, naughty me
    Mike Jury
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I used to be in a Mountain Rescue Team .......
    So did I (Teesdale and Weardale) so I too have seen the best and worst of it.

    I do have the permits I should have and, I am afraid,my post was rather more tonge in cheek than anything else!

    a bit naughty, I'm afraid!

  13. #58
    No mountain too high PeterSheppard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dramatist View Post
    why the heck does anybody need an assessment or a permit? Whose mad idea was this?
    Many people are unaware of this, or do not believe it when told, but:

    Leaders asked for the permit system

    When TSA was doing research into why lots of leaders wouldn't take groups camping, the response was very often "we're not confident enough". These leaders wanted the option of training, and some sort of benchmark to give them self-confidence to run events.

    That was what caused the permit system to be created, and its intention was to give leaders the confidence and skills to run nights away experiences. Unfortunately, in some areas, it has been used as a "tool" to restrict leaders from their own events; "well you can always come along to district camps"; or in many areas, has been unfortunately mis-understood and caused paranoia.

    And it's paranoia that I think is actually at the root of many local rules.
    Area Scout Network Commissioner/AAC Explorers - Gwent

    "Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap... but by the seeds you plant"

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