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pop
04-06-2003, 08:11 AM
Ok here is the situation.

I am an District Explorer Scout leader, My Explorer unit has 5 Scout groups feeding into it, we also have a health influx of new members from outside of Scouting.

The problem is that one of my feeder groups keep inviting there old scouts back to go on camps, fundrasing events etc, without even telling me about it, never mind asking me about it.

My problem withthis are

1. it disrups any plans I make
2. It is unfair on the rest of the explorers as they are not invited
3. the explorers that are invited, still think there part of that scout group and only have to turn up to explorers because they have to
4. I don't know what they get up too on these events
5. I feel very underminded about the hole thing
6. There is no mention of any money from the fundrasing events being pass on to the explorers
7.I could go on about this forever so I think I had better stop now :oops:

I would just like to know what you think about the situation and if you have had the same problems.

rosschapman
04-06-2003, 10:07 AM
Well obviously this one feeder group is not communicating well. Have these feeder groUps met you and know you as the DESL? And are the familiar with the Explorer Section, in that there is still a central leader that all infomation needs to route through.

Of course it disrups your operations, it would with me if i were in your position. And yes, feeder groups should invite all Explorers from whatever background, but if the Scouts are familiar with these explorers, of course they are going to want them back to helpl out.

3. the explorers that are invited, still think there part of that scout group and only have to turn up to explorers because they have to

-obviously they are not getting enough out of Explorer Scouting to want them to progress into the Explorer domain. They still may have friends in the Scout Troop. Joint activities that the Explorers run for District Scouts may work, and joint camps with split activities for Scouts (Climbing) and Explorers (Land yachting) may help to illustrate the boundaries of Scouts and the expansion of Explorers.

4. I don't know what they get up too on these events

Communication again. Common problem in Scouting! Have you actually asked the Explorers what they are doing?

6. There is no mention of any money from the fundrasing events being pass on to the explorers

2 schools of thought: Yes, Explorers help out, reap rewards of fundraising activity through a donation. No, Explorers are providing a service to the Scout Troop.



Does that help? :-)

mattw
04-06-2003, 10:29 AM
our new 'Explorer' scout system is also a right old mess. To be honest nothing has actually changed from when we were called venture scouts.

in terms of what events people go to it depends on how you look at the situation. I would say that for our group (which sounds quite similar) we still use our old Scout Groups hut, we still make use of all the equipment etc from the group and as such still give them money from fundraising etc, as opposed giving it to the district who in the last 3 years have only organised about 1 event.

Its unrealistic to expect people to immediately stop being connected with their old group, over time you may have more luck - but IMO i can see that these specific group ties would become less of an issue if there were sufficient district/area events that they didnt need to organise their own.

rosschapman
04-06-2003, 10:52 AM
I can relate. Our district always push the archery and shooting but none of the other activities available in Scouting. I want to go caving! I did as a Scout. :evil:

pop
04-06-2003, 11:36 AM
Ok i had better explain things better


I used to be part of that feeder group and they know who I am and what I'm there for, they think that because the explorers came from there unit they have a right to invite them to any activity they like with out consulting me, this ends up with my activities being thin on the ground cause half the group is away doing something else.

it's like having a cub leader approch a scout in persion and asking them to join an activity without telling the scout leaders. That just wouldn't happen

The explorers know there explorers, but the GSL keeps drumming into them that they are still members of there old group.

Don't take things the wrong way I don't have a problem with them organising activities for the explorer, I just want to be informed well in advance so that I have all the information. I also want all the explorers to be involved and that th eactivity fit in with my program. it would be pointles to take some one rock climbing (organised by the scout group)one week then have the basic training in rock climbing (orginised by the explorers) the next

Any fund rasing events should be discused before hand so that it is clear on where the money is going. our explorers have no fund at all, we're robbing peter to pay paul at the min.

Our explorers isn't based at a scout hut, we have our own hut.

GrumWSmith
04-06-2003, 01:27 PM
I can definetly see where you're coming from.

Often, the Explorers with the ties to the groups were mollycoddled by the group, and in Explorers they don't get that, and don't like it. There's a lot of politics going on just now, and the association needs to help sort this out by making clear boundaries on that Groups and Explorer Units can do.

Ewan Scott
04-06-2003, 04:11 PM
This is symptomatic of the Explorer situation. Irrespective of what I personally think of the structure, this highlights several problems that are almost bound to arise.
There are Explorers with divided loyalties.
There are Leaders with their own interests.
There are funding issues - never satisfactorily clarified to my knowledge.
There are activity issues.
There are communication issues.

Not to mention logistical and operational issues.

The whole situation would be cleared up by the SA making it possible for either Group OR District Explorer provision, or BOTH if required.

As things stand it is a mess and it is and will lead to confrontational situations if it is not sorted out. That does not mean imposing a system just because it was the one we first thought of. The SA needs to listen to all these comments and problems and reconsider the management and funding of Explorers and probably Scout Network - the latter, I suspect will show a massive loss of numbers.

Ewan Scott

Dave
04-06-2003, 04:32 PM
Have a word with your DESC and see if he will have aword with the Group. As for activities what is wrong with organising your own for the district. So far two units in the district have organised a couple of weekends away for the district and they have been well attended. We have tried to make Explorers totally different from Scouts so that the Young People want to be asscoiated with Explorers rather than Scouts.
As for fundraising each Unit does it own for the day to day running of the Units and we have taken on hiring out the districts marquees and get the set up fees for them which then goes into the district coffers.

Dave

marcus
04-06-2003, 05:07 PM
I can see the problems as I have a similar problem. In mine I'm a cub leader at a group, but the explorer aged kids at the group want me to set up an ESU at the group. They also get invited back to the group for activities.

Problem is they went to the district ESU (we only have one) and THE DESC who runs it is from another group and kept on inviting them to his group's activities.

At present they don't go to any explorers and so are out of the movement.

Any help with this one peeps? :?:

jelly
05-06-2003, 11:28 AM
The whole idea of having explorer scouts as district control is to stop groups trying to have their own explorer scout units with too few members.

Some explorer scout units do seem to be struggling at the moment and there are too many instances of scout groups trying to "keep their older scouts"

hopefully the new DESC in our district can turn the explorer units around.

harrogate20thscouts
05-06-2003, 02:56 PM
There is to much politics in Explorers at the momemnt, there is so many arguments. My Explorers is based at a group, and we use the kit, but officially we're not part of the group. It just doesn't work, half in half out.

Going to the original message, isn't Scouting about having fun, so what's the big deal about going out with your old Scout Group and have fun, but I do get your point. If your explorers are only turning up because they have to, and the activities aren't working, why don't you ask them what they want to do? Why don't you try and get your own fundraising. We did bagpacking with our group at X-Mas and we arranged a formula to work out how much the explorers should get depending on how many Explorer Hours there are comapred to total hours.

Mattrombone
08-06-2003, 09:35 PM
In my district explorers diddnt excite me, so I joined network a bit early, found i could because i was just about a venture when the change happend. I now attend neither explorers or network but help at my group. I lead a buissy life so this works best for me, i still get all the fun scouting stuff i enjoy and i can pass on knowledge to younger people who will benifit. I am just aproaching 18 and have heard that the Explorer leader was rather peeved to say the least when he heard that the reason i never whent to explorers isd because i thought the program was bad. My problem is that I have already done what they are doing and don't want to have to do it all again at inconveniant times, and the network people never tell me what is going on either. So now i make my own way through scouting, I do my group stuff, go to other groups, cub packs and run activities, camp in my own way and generaly do my own thing. Just wish that people in scouting wouuld talk and forget all the politics, it is rather anoying to say the least to see that the leaders for egsample in one case I saw, not necciserilay in my district. Anyways the leaders dont there best to ofganise some activities which did not inspire the members an awful lot, but neverthe less a few went along, they didnt even tell some of the members, WHY? then because of a **** up on there part, tolkd a member to leave because he had not payed, he had, they had recorded wrongly!

***The actual point after the woffle -----> Well i gues what I am trying to say is that for explorers to work they need a new exciting program not just a repeat of the scout stuff. They need to forget politics and accept everyone, whoever they are. And liase with scout groups ALOT better.

Chris
09-06-2003, 08:08 AM
I have allot of the problems that have been listed here.


Mattrombone

Yes I totaly agree with you, the explorers need new things to do, that they haven't been able to do in scouts, but you have to remember that explorer scouts have just started up, this will result in members having different levels of skills, thus the need to repeat what was taught in scouts

I would love to jump in to the good stuff, but it would be pointless as more than half of my group don't know the basics.

mattw
09-06-2003, 11:28 AM
i think the best thing to do is to stick with it for the time being and come back in 12 months or so to see what people think then.

the simple matter is that people in general dont like changes, im betting that in 10 years time if they suggest a change back to the old scouts and ventures system people wont like it. Whilst the changes wont suit every group very well (mine included) there are good reasons why *something* had to be done to shake things up and im pretty sure that in the long run it should work out.

Dave
09-06-2003, 06:52 PM
i think the best thing to do is to stick with it for the time being and come back in 12 months or so to see what people think then.

the simple matter is that people in general dont like changes, im betting that in 10 years time if they suggest a change back to the old scouts and ventures system people wont like it. Whilst the changes wont suit every group very well (mine included) there are good reasons why *something* had to be done to shake things up and im pretty sure that in the long run it should work out.

I agree with that. I remember all the upset when Rover Scouts and Wolf Cubs were changed in to Ventures and Cub Scouts. Now we've gone the full circle.
Feedback from the young people involved in out districts ESU's is very positive and they actually think of themselves now as district.

Dave

gapp-admin
17-06-2003, 10:22 PM
All changes will stir up high amounts of emotion - especially when it appears that "someone is stealing our Scouts"....

Having quickly scanned the thread, it becomes very apparent that many of the posters have suffered from "local rulings" over what is meant by a District PROVISION... No where does it say a District UNIT, instead there was flexibility in allowing the District (in CONSULTATION with the Groups) to decide what structure would offer the 14-18 age range in the District the highest quality of Scouting. If there is sufficient throughput, there is no reason why Explorer Units cannot be run as "another section within the Group" provided that ALL young people aged 14-18 in the District can benefit... (an example would be an "Air Explorer" Unit attached to the local Air Scout Group which enables the other Explorers the opportunity to undertake air activities).

The reason I put the proviso is that many Groups are claiming that they can support an Explorer Unit because they had a Venture Unit but providing a high quality programmes for 4-8 Units of 4-8 is a lot harder/lot more wasteful of resources than running 2-3 Units of 8-16...

<RANT MODE OFF, HOBBY HORSE BACK IN STORAGE>

Kevin Wallis
ESL TITAN ESU
"Diesel" Severn Vale