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Daniel
16-04-2005, 04:35 PM
Is the Scout Association right to force all Scout Groups to accept Girls aswell as Boys from January 2007

Please continue discussion here > http://www.escouts.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1593

bobkinoodle
21-04-2005, 04:02 PM
why shouldn't girls be allowed into scouting? Scouting started out as a boy only thing because girls were believed to be the ones who needed protecting and because they didn't share the same intrests as boys. These days boys and girls quite often have extreamly similar intrests. I searched my area for a scout group that would let me in in the endi found one, now I'm an explorer and love it! along with the 3 other girls in my group and the boys see us no differently and we do just as much work and have as much fun as them!

corbybeaver
25-04-2005, 08:22 PM
Hear Hear,

It's rubbish to exclude girls from scouting.....especially as there are now so many female leaders!!!!!!Roll on 2007!

Phil Hands
26-04-2005, 05:39 PM
Having daughters I agree with co-ed but not the enforcement of such a policy.

Have the Scout Association considered the legal implication of this co-ed policy? The Council and committee have Charters that give authority to the Bye Laws of the Association and in turn authorise the making of rules for the regulation of the Associations affairs i.e POR's, however, the right exists in law to legally challenge the council's policies.

It quite clearly goes outside the Statutory Authority of Sex Descrimination and the provisions contained within.

2007 could well be the year of damaging legal action taken against the Scout Association, if they decide to suspend warrants of leaders refusing to comply.

Has anyone looked at this aspect?

humpty
04-05-2005, 07:09 PM
Allowing girls into troops destroys them. Fact.
You are unable to run the patrol system properly. You gain tensions within the group you have to find extra leaders when its hard enough to find enough leaders in the first place. Girls can work in beavers cubs and allmost in explorers but in scouts it never will. Especially not if your troop values traditional scouting traditions such as the patrol system and boys going out and having fun together.
If girls want to get involved with some of the activities that scouts are doing (and i can completley see why they would want to) then there is nothing stopping them from going up to there guide leaders and asking them to do those activities.
At my troop if girls where allowed in then so many leaders would leave that the troop would close down because it wouldnt be able to function. This is a similar case for many troops accross the country. Do scouts realy want to kill there own organisation from the inside?
The system is fine at the moment where some troops do and some dont then there are options for everybody.

Craig
04-05-2005, 07:22 PM
It doesnt kill the troop, our entire Group has almost doubled in membership since girls were allowed into it, its beneficial, promotes good maturation in the youngsters, and we're all for it!

David
04-05-2005, 07:52 PM
i dont mind that there wouid have to be girls in the group as we havew never had one ask if she could join. i believe that it could not sestry it by stopping the activeties that u do, they join because they do not want to do the stuff the guides do.

Chris Lambert
05-05-2005, 08:26 AM
Allowing girls into troops destroys them. Fact.

That statement is wrong.

There are additional things to think about with a mixed troop but it does not have to destroy the troop.

You can quite easily run a patrol system. Maybe they can't all sleep in the same tent, but that isn't a major problem - two smaller tents per patrol is certainly an option.

humpty
05-05-2005, 09:20 AM
two smaller tents??? patrol tents dont have too many options on the size front. and to start having to spend loads of money on new equipment is a big problem for most troops as most can tafford to just start buying new equipment.
At my explorer unit i find that most of the time the girls sit at the side when we are playing games because the find the boys are bigger and stronger than them. If they dont enjoy what the guides do the why dont they ask there leadrs to do other stuff.

Craig
05-05-2005, 10:22 AM
Because it isn't in the programme of GirlGuiding UK!

There is no need to be shovanistic! You could just play less violent or rough games which would allow the girls to participate!

And it simple, one patrol tent for boys and one for girls, you just mix up the patrols when it comes to camping.

WideMonk
05-05-2005, 03:52 PM
having to spend loads of money on new equipmentEven tho the patrols on troop night are mixed, you'd still need to have single-gender tent.

As for the new equpiment, a single 3-man tent would do for a small number of girls and any more, stick them in their own patrol tent.


We have not got enough Leaders as it is - possibly a true statement - but if you added Girls couldn't you add to your possible Leader poolThis point mentioned in the other thread is very true. If you have girls, you also have a larger list of potential leaders.

Finally, if it becomes that much of a problem, start a waiting list.

Now even if you have a large waiting list, anyone new gets added to the bottom of the list. No-one is asking that you add girls to your list and jump the queue in front of the boys - after all, equality is what this's all about. If you've got an influx of potential new members (boys or girls), add them to the bottom regardless. Perhaps think about an adult recruitment drive

humpty
06-05-2005, 09:10 AM
You are just proving my point. By changing what we do (the games we play the tents that we use) we are having to compromise on traditional scouting values. we are having to change what we do which is wrong. My philosophy is that the only tents that scouts should use (other than when we are lightweight camping) is patrol tents. they can teach lessons that other tents cant dream of teaching.
Part of running the patrol system is that they cook clean sleep live and everything else that you do together by taking away any part of the patrol system you are making compromises that start to eat away at the heart of the troop.
Allowing girls in doesnt open up your potential for leaders at all. you dont have to have girls to have female leaders but by having girls you have to have female leaders.
I wont stand back and whatch the scout assosiation destroy all the superb aspects of scouting that we have strived so hard to keep.
I resent the comment that you think me shovanistic i have no problems with girls doing things that boys do but i do think you can get carried away with equal rights. I have no problem with girls doing things that scouts do i am sure that girls are as capable as boys at doing anything they want to but if you think about it just opening up scouting to girls is the wrong way of doing it. we need to come up with a beter way. Maybe (and this is just a suggestion) the sa should set up some kind of scouting for girls where you have troops made up soley of girls.

marcus
06-05-2005, 11:50 AM
Sorry but have you ever been a member of a mixed group humpty?

Our group in my time as a scout varied from one to 12 female members. There were no more tensions, nor did we have a problem with the "traditional scouting values". We also now have the section leader and one of the ASLs who were former female members.

The vast majority of girls who join the group are the "tomboys", and are there because they want to do scouting stuff. You do not need to tailor your programme to suit them, nor change any of the activities. (for example, the reason TSA left the FA back in the mid-90s was so that girls could play in football teams with boys past 13).

The girls bring in a different point of view, but also are often more "scouty" than some of the male mebers of the group.

Finally, just because you are co-ed doesn't mean you are going to be overloaded with lots and lots of girls. My Cub section at the moment has one, a relative of one of the former scouts, and our beavers have no female mebers at present. Our scouts have 9, and some of these were former Brownies, but it has never caused the group any problems.

PS our "killed troop" has gone up on average from approximately 18 before co-ed in 1992 to approximately 32-33 in 2004, and the numbers are similar this year. This is in a time when scouting generally has been in decline!

PPS: remember, the girls that choose to join scouts are choosing it, and therefore are not representitve of all girls of their age, but rather the more adventurous outdoor leaning end of the spectrum.

David
06-05-2005, 03:40 PM
why change what u do???
that is the reason whygirls joined, to do scouting stuff

Dave
06-05-2005, 05:53 PM
You are just proving my point. By changing what we do (the games we play the tents that we use) we are having to compromise on traditional scouting values. we are having to change what we do which is wrong.
Why? Girls will play the same games and if the games you play are that rough should you be playing them in the first place?

Girls will use patrol tents..Girl Guiding UK use them as well so that's not a issue.



My philosophy is that the only tents that scouts should use (other than when we are lightweight camping) is patrol tents. they can teach lessons that other tents cant dream of teaching..

See above reply


Part of running the patrol system is that they cook clean sleep live and everything else that you do together by taking away any part of the patrol system you are making compromises that start to eat away at the heart of the troop.

Life is full of compromise, a few hours over night won't change that much.


Allowing girls in doesnt open up your potential for leaders at all. you dont have to have girls to have female leaders but by having girls you have to have female leaders.

You don't HAVE to have female leaders but it is recommended. More Scouts has to open up more opportunity to gain more leaders


I wont stand back and whatch the scout assosiation destroy all the superb aspects of scouting that we have strived so hard to keep.

Who is the "we". I certainly welcome the addition of girls in to the Scout Association. Scouting isn't going to pulled back into the dark ages. I'm looking forward to seeing the Scout Association being in the forefront of what young people want.


I resent the comment that you think me shovanistic i have no problems with girls doing things that boys do but i do think you can get carried away with equal rights. I have no problem with girls doing things that scouts do i am sure that girls are as capable as boys at doing anything they want to but if you think about it just opening up scouting to girls is the wrong way of doing it.

Allowing girls into Scouts is hardly getting carried away.


we need to come up with a beter way. Maybe (and this is just a suggestion) the sa should set up some kind of scouting for girls where you have troops made up soley of girls.

It could be called GirlGuiding UK !


Dave

Chris Lambert
06-05-2005, 09:56 PM
Maybe (and this is just a suggestion) the sa should set up some kind of scouting for girls where you have troops made up soley of girls.

You can have troops made solely of girls. You can have troops made solely of boys. You can't have groups where there is no provision for either girls or boys at any given section.

WideMonk
10-05-2005, 03:06 PM
My philosophy is that the only tents that scouts should use (other than when we are lightweight camping) is patrol tents. they can teach lessons that other tents cant dream of teaching.
What can a Patrol tent teach that a nylon tent cant ??
You still have to put pegs in at 45º, dry them properly (albeit a little different), put all pegs in line, guys following seams, keeping the doors closed, no running between tents etc etc.

Also, who wants to lug around one of those great big things, not to mention it taking up valuable space in the trailer when a couple of cubs can carry 2 & 3-man tents?

Unless we have a large Group camp and there aren't enough nylon ones to go around, we never use patrol tents now.

(I'm not even gonna mention how much colder they are, too)

humpty
10-05-2005, 04:20 PM
It could be called GirlGuiding UK !
we have allready covered this one dave. my argument exactly why can tgirls go and do scouting stuff with the guides given that the whole point of it is that guiding is for girls who want to do scouts.


Sorry but have you ever been a member of a mixed group humpty?
Yes marcus i have i see it all the time in my explorer troop. the girls sit at the side and do nothing when we are playing games but they cant b involved with scouting in any other way because of what age they are.


I'm looking forward to seeing the Scout Association being in the forefront of what young people want.
I totally agree theres nothing i want more than to see scouting advance but i dont beleive allowing girls in is the way to do it. Just because we are trying to move with the times doesnt meen we have to forget the traditional things that make scouts great.


Allowing girls into Scouts is hardly getting carried away.
i agree but it is the bigining of it. The more of these pointless things we do the more we get carried away.


More Scouts has to open up more opportunity to gain more leaders
how does that work. the two arent directly proportional to each other. at are cub troop we have recently had a mass of cubs join up we have over 25 know when a year ago we were running on 15 yert we have had no more leaders.


Life is full of compromise, a few hours over night won't change that much.
no but like i say its the bigining of the end. why should we have to change how do things anyway.


Girls will use patrol tents..Girl Guiding UK use them as well so that's not a issue
if you are going to join in an argument then please read what had allready been argued. i no full well that girls will use patrol tents but like i said if you are having to split patrols in half because half are girls and half are boys then you can tuse patrol tents because there arent to many options on size.


Girls will play the same games and if the games you play are that rough should you be playing them in the first place?
If you are the dave that i think you are ( correct me if im wrong) then yu bought the sack game to ifold. Can you honestly tell me that a girl could be in the middle of one of those bundles without a few red faces. and that isnt an overly ruff game.


why change what u do???
this is a bit contradictory to other arguments given isnt it?

a few hours over night won't change that much.

new equpiment, a single 3-man tent

play less violent or rough games which would allow the girls to participate!

There are additional things to think about with a mixed troop


What can a Patrol tent teach that a nylon tent cant ??
If you can camp in a patrol tent than you can camp in anything. becasue it is cold and their heavy difficult to put up hard to manage difficult to keep tidy. if you start your camping career in a easy to use lightweight tent then you will never learn to camp properly you wont learn how to keep warm at night ao how to make sure you never tuch the canvas or what value having a lightweight tent brings. these are what lessons you learn.
Patrol tents are so much more hardy as well. you can have a whole patrol of scouts fall on a patrol tent and it will be fine. the first beaver to fall on a nylon tent and the guy ropes been ripped off and theres a whole in the canvas. If you pitch a patrol tent wrong (wich is quite comon with scouts) then it dosnt matter to much but if you pitch a nylon tent wrong then it will break without to much effort at all.
we should open up a pole on this.


(I'm not even gonna mention how much colder they are, too)
you just did.

Dr_Pepper
10-05-2005, 04:38 PM
I'm totally against girls in scouting. I won't bother going into it because there's no point, the SA has already decided anyway. It's already proved with the exporers thing and the camsites thing that it doesn't listen to it's members.

Regardless of this I think it's a very bad idea to force groups to allow girls. So many groups are struggling for leaders it's the last thing they need to have to get female leaders too (I know this isn't actually the rule, just the advice) and put people's noses out of joint by forcing them to do something they don't want to do. After all it's the leaders that have to run the group not detached people from HQ.

About patrol tents, I always hate it when I see more and more groups getting little plastic tents. As people have said, fine for lightweight hikes etc (hence "Hiking tent") but for proper camps they are not a patch on patrol tents. I mean my group have patrol tents (used constantly) we have reciepts for which were bought in the late 70's. Hiking tents will never last 10 years of heavy use by clumsy scouts - they are also not particularly cheap. You can get 6/8/10 in a patrol tent and only 3/4 in a plastic tent unless you pay thousands for the massive ones.

If a scout falls into the side of a nylon tent you're screwed, the tent is going to be a 'write off'. If an ember drifts into a nylon tent, you get a hole. If you try to force it when putting it up, you will break it. Not so with a patrol tent they can withstand anything and over time give far better value. They cost around £200-£400, how much do plastic tents cost for 8 people? And do they last 30 years+? :D

Oops sorry for the essay, my specialty.

marcus
10-05-2005, 05:41 PM
Different tents have different uses for different kids at different times. We have both patrol tents (some 40+ yyears old) and new tents (size 6 berth). With our cubs, we use the patrol tent on camps near our scout hut, and the lighter tents where we need to move them long distances.

As for the tents falling apart at the first sign of trouble, I've just finally retired my Ariel Nylon Ridge tent, used by first my father and now myself constantly for 30 years, it's been run into by SSAGO members (students ie: quite big) stood in a force 7 gale (and a force 6) and has been pitched next to a fire and I have cooked in the entrance in the last five years. (It is still useable, but the new tent I got was a lightweight).

also, if you are going to pitch your tent properly, and camp properly with full respect for planning your campsite, embers should never get anywhere near your tent as you should have pitched your tent upwind of the fire.

Finally we have canvas patrol tents of 4, 6 and 8 person sie (2, 3 and 4 middle sections)

Dave
10-05-2005, 09:01 PM
OK Humpty or should I say James so you know who I am, and no I didn't bring the sack Game to Ifold it's a game that had been played there for years. Ifold presently don't have any Girls in the Scout Troop so at this moment it isn't a issue,but when they do I am sure the leadership team will review the games they play.

Mark
10-05-2005, 09:53 PM
What's the Sack game please?

Chris Lambert
10-05-2005, 10:42 PM
Yes marcus i have i see it all the time in my explorer troop. the girls sit at the side and do nothing when we are playing games but they cant b involved with scouting in any other way because of what age they are.

If the girls are sitting out the whole time then either:

The unit is being run wrong and not involving everyone, or
The girls are quite happy sitting at the side of these games



no but like i say its the bigining of the end. why should we have to change how do things anyway.

It is not the beginning of the end - it is the beginning of the future.

Some things have to change because it is the right thing to do. It was once acceptable to have leaders sleeping in the same tents as children but this is no longer the case. Similarly it was once acceptable to discriminate against girls but it is not any more.

No one is suggesting that you have to introduce make-up nights or fashion parades! But if girls want to join in with the programme that you offer then it is just plain wrong to exclude them. It would be wrong to exclude someone from scouting based on race or religion and it is similarly wrong to exclude them because of their sex.

There will of course be some areas where inconsequential changes are needed - such as sleeping arrangements - but in the scheme of things they are insignificant.

Why accept girls? Because we are Scouts and Scouts do the right thing not the easy thing.

WideMonk
11-05-2005, 08:02 AM
Not only should you arrange your camp so tents are miles away from the fire, you also have the 6th Scout Rule... to save you looking it up, "A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possesions and property." If you get anyone falling on tents, then I'd hardly say that their camping career was right in the first place. As well as teaching them about keeping warm, it's also respect for equipment... open the doors fully when getting in and out etc. Thats true to either type.

Nylon tents can be cold enough, for Cubs at least. You can do the 'keeping warm' bit there. As they move to Scouts (or even start brand new), you can still build on that learning with nylon tents with different environments, camping at different times of the year.

Yes, accidents happen and if one of my kids tripped onto a tent and ruined it, it'd be upto the Group to replace. Patrol tents may be tough, but they're prone to shrinking if not dried properly and the only way to prevent that is re-pitch them in someones back yard when you get home until they are dry - hard to do in winter. Even still, all things considered between the two, the pros outweigh the cons.

Dr_Pepper
11-05-2005, 09:36 AM
You can't put the fires downwind of the tents because everyone knows the wind changes direction? It goes wherever you stand for a start. With each patrol having a fire, you can't exactly have their tents on one side of camp and all their fires on their own on the other. Obviously you don't a fire too near a tent but if I had plastic tents I'd probably be so overprotective of them I'd put them in the next field!

I've owned 3 camping tents, and I'm only 23, none of them were cheap ones but one had a huge seam rip, one the zips went (the most common thing) and one of them was at a venture jamboree someone tripped over fell into it and totally ruined it with a massive hole in the side. None of these were my fault it's just that they are not heavy duty, and none of these would have affected patrol tents.

Yes you have to dry them properly (we just hang them up in our hall) but clearly you have to dry plastic tents up too - else they go mouldy very quickly. I respect your view, I'm not trying to be obnoxious, just stating mine, Good luck with them I just don't think they are the same kind of long term investment :)

Chris Lambert
11-05-2005, 09:42 AM
Good luck with them I just don't think they are the same kind of long term investment :)

The cost of a patrol tent is probably somewhere in the thousands. The cost of a lightweight tent is somewhere in the hundreds.

In terms of investment they aren't comparable. The patrol tent has to last ten times as long to be as cost effective.

Dr_Pepper
11-05-2005, 09:56 AM
I think you need to change your supplier. I already gave a vague idea of how much they cost above. A quick google search this is top of the list, a 14 footer for £350, flysheet if required another £60
http://www.militarymart.co.uk/shop/view_product.php?product=tent9

But even that is not particularly cheap. You can get them much more reasonable, and you can get discounts for being a scout group/charity. Thousands? I don't think so you can easily get tent and fly for £350 and preobably less.

marcus
11-05-2005, 05:35 PM
Yeah, there less than that in Scouting Magazine, Patrol tents are useful and not that expensive, good and useful. All I would say is there is a place for them and a place for other tents.

Oh and a side issue - I have a very embarrasing photo (whch I am trying hard to delete all copies of) where we had a game of "make-up" beetle as one of our silly games on a SSAGO camp, do not go there! :D

marcus
11-05-2005, 05:41 PM
Thought you like might like this topic on the SSAGO board, covers some of the ideas here, but has some very different perspectives

http://www.ssago.org.uk/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.pl?forum=1&thread=223

PS: Some of these people seem to have very strange perspectives full stop :)

Dave
11-05-2005, 08:02 PM
What's the Sack game please?

Two, two metre squares of groundsheet each end of the hut, two teams have to get a sack (filled with old rags or the like) under their oppenents square. If the sack goes to ground (someone sits or lays on it, the game re-starts). Get ready to Rrrrrrrrummmmmble !!!

Swanny
25-05-2005, 03:12 PM
Yeah, let girls in scouts. We ahve girls in our group - they get just as involved in activites as the lads (if not more) they add a new dimension to scouting.

I don't see why people think girls would be harder'cus of games and stuff. Never found it a problem at ours.

AaronWiles
29-05-2005, 09:30 PM
Force all groups to except girls, no they should not, encourage YES! Scouting has enough problems attracting leaders as it is without forcing Scout groups/scouting leaders to except girls. If sections have male only leaders who do not wish to accept girls as they will not be comfortable with it & are "forced" to accept them then the Scout Association will start loosing even more leaders than it/we currently are.



As for my group, we do accept females in all sections & yes it does work very successfully, the girls on 98% of the activites intermix with the boys in all every aspect of Scouting, and I do think it is a good thing for both Scouting & the boys to involve girls; but then the problem comes of leaders being comfortable with having girls in there section.

MCE
02-06-2005, 04:21 PM
@ Aaron

If sections have male only leaders who do not wish to accept girls as they will not be comfortable with it & are "forced" to accept them then the Scout Association will start loosing even more leaders than it/we currently are.

If a leader is "not comfortable" with having a mix of boys and girls then they should be leading scouts at all. sexual discrimination is being wiped out everywhere you look, and no single scout leader should be able to stop a member joining just because they "arent comfortable", after all in scouting the members come 1st.

Quick question, do you need female leaders at a unit to have girl scouts?

David
02-06-2005, 04:47 PM
no i dont think that you do.
but it is a good idea to

nickb
03-06-2005, 08:08 PM
@ Aaron
Quick question, do you need female leaders at a unit to have girl scouts?
To quote the leaflet we all got about this, "There is no specific requirement to have a female leader. However good practice and common sense would make this sensible".

I certainly wouldn't take girls away without a female leader, but I don't see as it makes too much difference on a section night.

donkeylegs
11-07-2005, 07:55 AM
This is an issue which I feel very strongly about. I joined Explorers in 2002 and I am now an AESL with the same unit. When I joined I was one of three girls, out of about 15-20 members, we now have a unit of around 30 with about half being girls..

I’m incredibly tomboy-ish and can do anything that any of the lads can do, I love being “one of the boys” and I find that the equality within our group means that everyone has a lot more respect for each other. The girls in our unit take part just as much as the boys do. As for the argument about camping/sleeping arrangements, I do not see how it is relevant, it is simply an excuse.

Although I can see the argument about more members meaning more leaders, ie potential parent helpers, I know that this is not always the reality, we are in the very fortunate position of having enough leaders, all of whom are former members of the venture unit we replaced.

Until about a year ago (when I went off to Uni) I was also a ranger, which I enjoyed, but I found that I got very different things out of it. Had I not joined Explorers I don’t think I would be doing what I do now (studying for a degree in Adventure Tourism Management) because being in Scouting has given me many opportunities to experience things that I wouldn’t have otherwise, why should these opportunities be limited to boys.

This isn’t the dark ages, why should girls not be allowed to do the same as their male friends, as for the argument about rough games etc, most of our girls can give as good as they get, and they don’t moan half as much as the lads.

Sorry for the rant, but it’s something that is important to me!!

explorerQueen
01-09-2005, 04:51 PM
Hey i joined scouting when i was 6/7 in beavers!! and was the only girl in beavers and cubs!! i thought it was great none of the boys treated me any differently from any others!! When i went up to scouts however more girls joined and the games were kept the same even if they are rough. In explorers now most of the girls play and any of the rough games that we take part in the girls just make it rougher the guys like having girls in scouting in our troops because...well lets not get into that. Just kidding. the guys like it there because some of the girls get on with the guys really well i know i do we have more girls in my explorer troop than boys and we all agree that it is the best troop ever we get along (most of the time) and kick back together!! its great i think you should give girls the same equal opppertunity as you do boys even though girl guiding doesn't but hey! Scouting was the best thing to happen to me. I'm sure you can make great things happen to other girls across uk too :)

Luv stacey xxxx

Richard
02-09-2005, 09:07 AM
Hey i joined scouting when i was 6/7 in beavers!! and was the only girl in beavers and cubs!! i thought it was great none of the boys treated me any differently from any others!! When i went up to scouts however more girls joined and the games were kept the same even if they are rough. In explorers now most of the girls play and any of the rough games that we take part in the girls just make it rougher the guys like having girls in scouting in our troops because...well lets not get into that. Just kidding. the guys like it there because some of the girls get on with the guys really well i know i do we have more girls in my explorer troop than boys and we all agree that it is the best troop ever we get along (most of the time) and kick back together!! its great i think you should give girls the same equal opppertunity as you do boys even though girl guiding doesn't but hey! Scouting was the best thing to happen to me. I'm sure you can make great things happen to other girls across uk too :)

Luv stacey xxxx

I'm glad girls have posted and emphasised what a great experience you've had at Scouting.

I think when mixed scouting at Groups was introduced 13 years ago? There was the Groups that said yes, but sadly many said no.

Now we are in a position, where in my view its more the practicalities leaders worry about, and some of the disinformation, doesnt help at all.

After seeing what such a great time girls had as Scouts at Eurojam, I'm in no doubt the future of Scouting is Mixed, for all.

So that said, I feel that HQ could have done more to help leaders make the transition, instead of just telling them its happening. It will need more support.

The doubts that will be expressed I can sympathise with, but a leader fully supported and given all the facts will hopefully see that really they can work with it.

davehants
26-09-2005, 01:20 PM
I would like to say im from a mixed scout group and it works very well there have been no changes to the way we run the group. Girls make up for 50% of the group thay work just as hard as the boys if not harder most of the girls are tomboys and thats why thay like scouts so much.

dukethedog
02-11-2005, 05:06 PM
I would be the first to encourage girls into scout groups. they havea positive effect on the troop. BUT and it is a big one. we have never in our district allowed a troop (or any section) to operate as a mixed group without there being a female leader. This policy will continue after 2007 regardless of what gilwell say.

the problem is not with girls in any section but with lack of female leaders. Gilwell are just being PC about this without offering any sopport to groups as to how to get round the problem. As usual, they make recommendations that are not practical on the ground

jediwannabe
02-11-2005, 08:00 PM
Here in South Africa a troop is run by the Court of Honour. And it is the CoH's decision to have Girls in a troop or not (Our CoH decides not to). Our troop is 45 Scouts strong, and growing every friday.

The CoH consists of the Patrol Leaders. The role of a leader is to vito any stupid decisions (Like jumping out of a plane without a parachute).

The SASA is split into 3 sections:
Cubs - 8 to 11.5 years old
Scouts - 11.5 to 18 years old
Rovers - 18 to 30 years old
And the leaders which can be any age over 18. Although we don't call them leaders. Cub Leaders are "Pack Scouters", and troop leaders are "Troop Scouters". In fact, "Troop Leaders" over here are scouts who are not yet 18, but have decided to leave give their patrol leader duties to someone else (Normally when they are busy with their Top Award and last year at school)

Chris Lambert
02-11-2005, 08:23 PM
we have never in our district allowed a troop (or any section) to operate as a mixed group without there being a female leader. This policy will continue after 2007 regardless of what gilwell say.

Do you have a similar rule that there must be a male leader?

Richard
03-11-2005, 10:58 AM
BUT and it is a big one. we have never in our district allowed a troop (or any section) to operate as a mixed group without there being a female leader. This policy will continue after 2007 regardless of what gilwell say.

the problem is not with girls in any section but with lack of female leaders. Gilwell are just being PC about this without offering any sopport to groups as to how to get round the problem. As usual, they make recommendations that are not practical on the ground

Right lets look at the facts:

Your district, has no right to enforce this type of rule. In fact with Equal Opportunities law as it is and the SA now decided to go mixed totally. If taken to court your district may well be breaking the law.

I don't know where this argument came about lack of female leaders. Overall the split between Male / Female leaders is roughly 50/50. Its true that there isnt the ideal mix in some places, but thats an issue that needs worked on.

robp1970
03-11-2005, 03:07 PM
The only problem I forsee, is thus;
We currently have a largeish waiting list for beavers - when it's opened up to girls, then the list will get longer & eventually girls will be taking places while some boys are still on the waiting list. I understand that the Guide assoc is not opening their doors to boys, so they will not have thoptions of going to Rainbows - Where as the girls will have the option of going to either & can indeed do both...
So, then If you have a colony of 20 - 10 boys, 10 girls & then say another 10 mixed on a waiting list. If all the gorls go to Rainbows as well as Beavers, then, but the boys on the waiting list cannot get into Beavers, then they are being penalised for being boys?

Is this fair?
:angryfire

Chris Lambert
03-11-2005, 04:05 PM
So, then If you have a colony of 20 - 10 boys, 10 girls & then say another 10 mixed on a waiting list. If all the gorls go to Rainbows as well as Beavers, then, but the boys on the waiting list cannot get into Beavers, then they are being penalised for being boys?

We have no control over the actions of other organisations. We can control what we do. Is it fair that girls are excluded just because they are girls? Don't make the mistake of assuming that they can go to guides and do exactly what scouts does. Guides is a seperate organisation offering different things.

robp1970
03-11-2005, 04:54 PM
We have no control over the actions of other organisations. We can control what we do. Is it fair that girls are excluded just because they are girls? Don't make the mistake of assuming that they can go to guides and do exactly what scouts does. Guides is a seperate organisation offering different things.

I totaly understand that the Guide & Scout Assoc's are different & that they do different activities... That's not my argument... I'm just saying that Girls are being given a broader choice of what they can do & the boys WILL suffer because of this. Unless of course there's a massive influx of new leaders enabling mre groups to be set up...:o

RichmondDESC
22-11-2005, 11:48 PM
I am a bit late into this debate but I have only just joined. I have read all the posts and to be honest I am pretty disgusted with some of the comments I have read - some people are obviously pretty mis-informed about certain things and are wearing blinkers concerning other matters.

Let's go with a few facts:
1. Leadership
It has been stated correctly that you do not need to have a female leader present but it is desirable, therefore sections can run quite normally with male only, or female only leaders. When has anyone ever questioned a Beaver Colony or Cub Pack being run by female only leadership team? And before you ask, yes I can name quite a few beaver and cub sections that are run solely by women.
A lot of our leadership comes from within - and this is one of the areas that Explorer Section excels in - Young Leader Training. It is something the Guide movement have been doing for years and the SA have only recently cottoned onto it. In our district there are 160 explorers, 62 of them are registered as young leaders and have done some training - of those 62, 27 of them are female. So not only do we have the potential of 27 female leaders taking out warrants in the next few years - there are also potentially 27 leaders that we quite simply would not have had if girls were not allowed into scouting.

2. Camping
The patrol system works, and if run properly it works well. I have been running scout camps for several years with both boys and girls and I have never, ever had an issue because girls are present. You can argue all day long about patrol tents v modern tents - it makes no difference to dual sex camping. Did you know there is actually no rule anywhere that states girls and boys have to sleep in separate tents? Now I am not for one minute suggesting that we put girls in with boys, I was just pointing out a fact. Anyway, back to your patrol camp - so you have 6 patrols, each with their own patrol tent and kit - does it really matter if the patrols don't actually sleep as patrols? No, I don't think it does, and if you take your highly prejudiced blinkers off and embrace the extra dimension girls bring to the movement you will be able to come up with a suitable workaround to the sleeping arrangements which won't interfere with your patrol in the slightest.

3. Integration
I heard someone bitch and moan that he can't play the rough games and girls sit out and blah blah blah - sorry I forgot the rest as your whining attitude bored me. Times change, get with it. In the younger sections there is very little physical difference between boys and girls, an average 10 yr old girl is as fast and as strong as the average 10 year old boy so your arguement in moot with the younger sections. It is only when the boys reach puberty that hormones rage, testosterone hits and their physical strength far outweighs that of a girl. If you have a 15 or 16 yr old male explorer who gets upset because he can't play a rough game with the girls there then I suggest he finds another avenue to let off steam - maybe learning restraint and self control will do him the world of good - something that would not have happened if girls were not present.

The unit I run has a 17 members, 7 boys and 10 girls. All you have to do is look at the photos on our website to see that we are not a girly unit - our program is scout orientated, we do not avoid certain activites because there are girls - they get stuck in as well as, and sometimes even moreso, than the boys.

Those leaders who think they cannot handle girls in their section should approach their ADC or DESC and seek some training or assistance. Seriously - it is not difficult having girls in your section, in fact it is very good. If you are concerned that you can't cope visit a mixed section for a few weeks and see how they get on.

There are arguements flying around that in Jan 2007 there will be a massive influx of girls and groups won't be able to cope - complete b*ll*cks! If that were the case then surely the groups that accept girls now would be even more overloaded with them as there are less groups for them to choose from. There is no huge queue waiting for 2007!

To say a person cannot join because they are female is just as prejudiced and wrong as it would be to say someone couldn't join because they were a devout Muslim or Jew, or allergic to peanuts - each brings in special considerations, but tolerance and acceptance has got to be a good thing, it breaks down prejucial barriers that are so harming our society today.

Accept girls and move forward into the 21st Century or else scouting will die!

agent-p
23-11-2005, 01:57 PM
The only problem I forsee, is thus;
We currently have a largeish waiting list for beavers - when it's opened up to girls, then the list will get longer & eventually girls will be taking places while some boys are still on the waiting list. I understand that the Guide assoc is not opening their doors to boys, so they will not have thoptions of going to Rainbows - Where as the girls will have the option of going to either & can indeed do both...
So, then If you have a colony of 20 - 10 boys, 10 girls & then say another 10 mixed on a waiting list. If all the gorls go to Rainbows as well as Beavers, then, but the boys on the waiting list cannot get into Beavers, then they are being penalised for being boys?

Is this fair?
No it isn't, but it is a problem with GirlGuiding being sexist not Scouts being non-sexist. If GirlGuiding took boys then it would be a level playing field.

Yes with all groups allowing girls the waiting lists will get longer, and more kids (boys and/or girls) will not be able to join. That is the big problem that Scouting needs to get round to addressing - more Leaders.

Chris Lambert
23-11-2005, 02:03 PM
Yes with all groups allowing girls the waiting lists will get longer,

Only in groups that have a waiting list!

agent-p
23-11-2005, 02:04 PM
Only in groups that have a waiting list!
Most of them you mean.

Craig
23-11-2005, 10:53 PM
Not really, ours has never had one, doesn't need one either.

agent-p
24-11-2005, 08:16 AM
Then I envy you. We have waiting lists in all three sections. We turn away loads of kids.

phil_cole
24-11-2005, 08:55 AM
Are there other groups nearby that could take those your group are turning away?

In my experience, waiting lists are due to a shortage of leaders at a group or the group with the waiting list not being willing to acknowledge that there are groups around that have spaces and no waiting list.

Phil

Richard
24-11-2005, 10:00 AM
I just found out about this new resource, specifically to help leaders with this issue:

http://www.scouts.org.uk/onemovement/

Well worth a look

agent-p
24-11-2005, 11:08 AM
Are there other groups nearby that could take those your group are turning away?

In my experience, waiting lists are due to a shortage of leaders at a group or the group with the waiting list not being willing to acknowledge that there are groups around that have spaces and no waiting list.

Phil
They're sending the kids to us because they are full!

I agree with the shortage of Leaders bit but that is a universal problem. I reckon in order to stand still my group will need 5 new leaders by the end of next year. In order to open new sections to cope with the extra kids we need to be looking at getting 11 (5, plus 2 each in the 3 sections) new Leaders in the next couple of years. I would count myself lucky if I got 2.

RichmondDESC
24-11-2005, 11:26 AM
Agent-p, it sounds like you really do need an adult recruitment drive. Scout Groups are usually a victim of their own success, if they are run well and offer a good and exciting program then their members will tell their friends and before you know it your group has grown exponentially and you cannot cope with any more. If all your groups are full then the District Exec really needs to sit down and address the problem. It really is sad that children are being turned away due to lack of resources.

Ryan G
24-11-2005, 12:44 PM
It appears I'm cottoning on to this arguement a little late as well- but as a new forum member I'd like to get my 2 cents!

I am under the belief that Scouting should accept both boys and girls. My Group has been accepting girls for about 3 years now, and quite a few happenings have taken place as a result (some good, some bad), but in the end, or rather present, my Troop is no worse for wear then it was 4 years ago, in fact it's basically exactly the same - the only difference being that we have girls in the Troop. Accepting girls was a good idea for us, and can be for everyone, but it does hinge on quite a few things that need serious consideration, including...

(i) It can be an extremely good way of increasing numbers in a Troop; we've always had a large Troop, and love being able to provide for so many. After a leadership mishap (that i won't go into) we lost quite a few. But once the leadership team was back on it's feet it was a good way to go about increasing numbers.

(ii) Female leaders are not legally required, but they are most essential! When you have an influx of girls into your Troop with hormones raging (I don't care what people say about 14/15 year olds, in this day and age it seems to start around 12!) I think you need the female touch to deal with a lot of the issues that can arise from that. I'm not saying that some, if not all men are capable of dealing with it, but rather most of the girls I know wouldn't dare talk to a 'man' about anything, period!

(iii) Joint activities? Easily done! Even in the 'boyish rough and tumble' games all the girls in our Troop are able and eager to join in. Most scouting activities I can think of don't have to be limiting in anyway. Of course some distinctions still need to be made, camping is one that does pop up. Sure you can put girls and boys in the same tent on camp, but it's probably bad practice. Never in any of my school trips was I in the same dorm or room as a girl, and in all the schools I know of it still doesn't happen. It's a situation waiting to happen.

(iv) It has to be decided from the top of the Group down. When we entertained the idea of letting girls into the Troop we did have some reservations. Our cub and beaver leaders (women btw) were more eager for it then us guys in Scouting with only one female leader, who wasn't thrilled at the prospect either.

In the end a consensus was reached that it was up to Scouts to make the decision - because if Beavers allowed entry we felt that forced the rest of us to comply, because awkward problems might arise when it was time for the girls to move up. Our Scouts themselves made the decision (through anonymous voting booths) and thus the acceptance made it's way backwards. As a side note the Scouts voted highly in favour of girls, the figures if I recall correctly, were something like 20 for, 3 against.


Wow, I'm chattering on for ever here aren't I. I seem to have run out of creative steam, so I'll stop there for now with things to consider. I'll move on quickly just to say, should girls be in Scouting? Yes. Should it eventually be forced upon all Groups to accept Girls? Yes. Should it be in 2007? To be honest I'm not sure. If it is to happen, Districts, Counties, and the Association need to start taking considerable steps to helping Groups with the problems mentioned above and many more that can arise.

Reading through the One Movement (http://www.scouts.org.uk/onemovement/) site that Richard referenced, it seems to be the case that Groups need to approach their Districts for any help they might need. It even says


The process towards mixed Scouting is not set in stone.

That doesn't sound resoundingly confident to me. It can be done by 2007, but it shouldn't be up to Sections and Groups to get the job done, they should be guided along the way by the Association. I'll shut up now!

MikeLeonard
26-12-2005, 03:58 PM
I know i'm way behind by posting this, but I really want to put my 2 cents into this one.

I can't belive some of the things people say.

I have been an ASL at my scout troup for 2 years now, I have been in scouting since being a beaver!

I am a tradional scouter, working to traditional scouting values. My camps are always run in Patrol tents (except Hike Camps). We have a great program and put a lot of emphasis onto activities that are good old traditional ones.

We have had Girls in our scout troup for along while, wow! What a difference it has made! The girls all muck in, take part, and play every games that the lads do.

Normal attendance at camps is now more girls than boys, as they seem to love the adventure more than the lads.
We run single sex patrols, this does help when camping but also gives the lads something to work to. Our girls always seem to beat them!

We run with 4 male leaders and 1/2 females.

It is good to have female leaders around at camp, somethings i would not like the have to deal with or explain.
But the girls do like having Male leaders around to. Some prefer our male leaders to the female ones! But thats just by and by.

To sum up!
I think it is a great step for the SA to allow females into all groups! We might finally get a bit of "Street Cred"! The lads might use the Girl's in scouting thing to attract other Males! You never know!

The SA has done loads to promote and assist with mixed scouting, recruiting adult help and giving solutions to "Waiting List"

The people that think they have been left in the dark without help, need to try looking!

matt2501
01-01-2006, 07:28 PM
Some leaders beleive that the troop will run smoother with girls in, and this is because the boys wont misbehave because they are trying too impress the girls, but in all me experience this is just not true whatsoever.

I was talking to someone about this, and their son moved up from Scouts to ventures just as they let the groups allow girls, and he loved it, and found it much better, I beleive he said:

"I prefer ventures to scouts, they give you girls to play with"

Oliver
04-01-2006, 10:04 PM
Yes, I think all groups should have to let girls into their groups now. In this day in ag its about equal oppoutunities. Times have changed so all groups should let in girls. I mean to be fair, a lot of the girls are tougher than the lads lol.

Best Wishes
Oliver

explorerQueen
05-01-2006, 08:11 PM
Everyone should let girls into scouting. Not just because its fun etc but because scouting can change your life! It did it to me, i was always the quiet shy girl in the corner my friends took advantage of me i then had an operation on my ear leaving it mis-shaped which made me even more shy i wouldn't talk to anyone new! Then the more time i spent at scouts and moved up to explorers i went on more camps with people all over scotland and became more confident because i realised i just have to be myself because we all have something in common we r all part of a great big family tee hee!! But seriously if u as any of my leaders they will tell u i used to be really shy and quiet now they cant shut me up!! When i go to camps by the end of it everyone knows my name :S I duno how but its happened strangely enough! So why let some shovanistic views about females getting involved with scouting ruin girls lifes! U know if girls aren't allowed in scouting will i not be allowed to go back :S Sorry im confused!! If not well that sucks!!

Toodles , Stacey xx

jediwannabe
06-01-2006, 06:30 AM
One thing that I don't understand (And never will) is that in the troop that I'm involved with, we don't accept Girls, and yet we are the biggest troop in our district (45 Scouts)!

The reason why we don't accept girls is because our CoH doesn't want us to accept girls. In South Africa, the CoH is the "governing body" of the troop. It consits of all the PL's, TL's and the Troop Scouter (In a advisery role only). BTW, none of our Scouts have anything against girls in Scouting (In fact most of their girlfriends are involved in other troops), they just don't want girls in their troop.

I personally don't mind girls in Scouting either, in fact one of my best friends was a girl scout, and is now a Scouter.

Phil4071
20-01-2006, 05:46 PM
i think its right. Our scout troop at the minute ha more girls then it does boys! Hopefully we can get the ongoing problems with the cubs sorted soon, and then we can get some more people up as the scout;s are suffering from very low numbers at the moment. I wount go into the full details but basicly the scouts havent had one cub sent up in about 5 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MikeJ
20-01-2006, 08:38 PM
I think its right to do this our beaver colony is now up to 7 girls, so they are slowly catching up the boys in terms of numbers :) (still a way to go though).

Mike

curtisuk
21-01-2006, 12:00 PM
I wount go into the full details but basicly the scouts havent had one cub sent up in about 5 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There sounds like you have a big problem for this to happen.

Have you tried linking with the cubs
Going to there meetings
as census time you should be able to get details of cubs of age & DOB that are due to move up and approuch them at cubs.
Does the SL talk to CSL to get the info.
Have you tryed to group events such as camping and joint evinings so cubs and see how good scouts are.
as a YL why dont you help out at cubs as well for a time and see why the cubs are not moving up and encourage them to visit some meetings.
if you there is a bigger problem speak to your GSL or to ADC cubs and or DCit may seem quit frustrating in the begining but if you keep trying you will suceed.

good luck

Phil4071
21-01-2006, 05:48 PM
RE: David Curtis

Thanks david.

After making the post yesterday i found out that our new GSL has taken action agisnt the situation.

Basicaly the problem was with the actual cub leader, he has reafused to have any interaction with the rest of the group wot so ever. Our GSL reacently left and or DC, who has been fully aware of the situation for quite some time, has moved in as acting GSL. There have been negotiations with the leader before and he said that he will allow other scout leaders to come and talk to the cubs. When it came to it came to leaders actuly going down there he refused to let them.

But anyway, our new GSL has had a meeting with the cub leader, speaking as both GSL and DC and has kicked all the cub leaders out. When it came down to it he was breaking POR and since he reafused to coperate he was dismised.

I saw the leaders last night and this had happend durring the week. Theres a few problems that have arrived already, mainly due to the old cub leader delibaratly tring to make make things as difficult as possible. But at least it looking up.

Thanks for the advice david :thup:

shiftypete
21-01-2006, 08:29 PM
Sounds serious, what possible reason could a Cub Leader have for not wanting other Leaders from his Group at Pack meetings?

Phil4071
21-01-2006, 08:58 PM
not sure hes a strange person but we dont think there was nething going on suspitious. he only ever became the leader becuse the exsiting cub leader moved to australia, but even then people where reluctant to have him as a cub leader. But then he fell out with one of the scout leaders, who has since also moved, but beacuse he dident like this leader he dident send cubs up 2 us. And gradualy hes compleatly sepearated the cubs from the rest of the group.

but anyway this is getting a bit *off topic* now but yea bin tlkin 2 the leaders n just gotta clear up the mess and then the problem shuf be all sorted out now.

MikeJ
21-01-2006, 10:06 PM
Phil, Its good that the situation has been sorted out, as it is wrong for any section to not 'feed' the next section up. I hope it sorts itself out, did you have many cub leaders to replace?

Mike

Phil4071
21-01-2006, 10:28 PM
not sure exactly how many cub leaders there where before, but i am going to go down there and help out, i no the GSL is going to help run the section plus 2 of the scout leaders are going down. Eventualy we will find some permanet leaders, that if the ones at the moment carnt do it. But for now leaders isent realy a problem. Not been able to replace the leaders was the main reason why its taken so long to sort out.

Penny
14-02-2006, 07:36 PM
We have girls in all sections in our group, and personally i think it is a good thing. We have done for a few years now, we have not had any problems in any aspects of scouting, a few years ago we even had only one girl in a sixers and seconders camp, all the girls have joined in with all the activities and we have not made any adjustments to the programme because of anyones gender, these girls are not always tomboys they just want to be part of the scouting world and are proud of it .....

Lyndzeh
14-02-2006, 10:43 PM
Haha girls sit on the side and watch the games do they =| maybe you shouldnt just look at the one group and look at them overall I am a girl who has been through the scouting association right up to being a young leader and I have also been to an all boys group i would say that the mixed groups run alot better than all boy groups! Also girl scouts have matured alot more than boys and are much more responsible and therefore make much better patrol leaders! And saying that girls, if they wish to do scouting activities they should go to girl guides haha again i have been to guides they are completing different and some groups do basically do along the lines of "make up parades and fashion parades" No wonder the girls want to come to scouts! I think that the girls fit in fine! I can understand you not wanting this if the girls are literally not going to join in but you also get boys who do this! And therefore you should use your training to include them! Even though you leaders are being forced to include girls which i agree is unfair you should accept them and then make your decision on girls in scouting!

Matt M
21-02-2006, 03:26 PM
Lyndz, You do sit in the side lines and watch the lads play though:tong:,

Although, I do stick with my original theory, if scouting has to accept girls, then why doesn't guiding accept lads? I understand I wouldn't want to be a guide... Definatly not - making washing up stands on camp doesn't excite me, i suppose that's why so many guides have come to scouting... cuz we are far more exciting :D

Lyndzeh
24-02-2006, 11:56 PM
And how would u no Matt me not being in your group now shush as we both have the same opinion anyhow lol :rolleyes:

Richard
25-02-2006, 12:28 AM
Lyndz, You do sit in the side lines and watch the lads play though:tong:,

Although, I do stick with my original theory, if scouting has to accept girls, then why doesn't guiding accept lads? I understand I wouldn't want to be a guide... Definatly not - making washing up stands on camp doesn't excite me, i suppose that's why so many guides have come to scouting... cuz we are far more exciting :D

Mmm, The Scout Association took the decision to accept Girls 14? years ago. There was always the get out clause for Scout Groups who didnt want to change. Well thats now gone.

So its really time to get on with it!!!

MikeJ
25-02-2006, 12:47 PM
Mmm, The Scout Association took the decision to accept Girls 14? years ago. There was always the get out clause for Scout Groups who didnt want to change. Well thats now gone.

So its really time to get on with it!!!

I know venture scouts no longer exists, but that was mixed back in the late 80's, possibly earlier.

Mike

phil_cole
27-02-2006, 09:20 AM
Venture Scouting, I believe, was mixed from the outset - in 1967.

Phil

Artful
28-02-2006, 01:16 PM
We have a strong girl compliment in our scout troop and for the past three years the all girl team we have entered at our district junior and senior patrol challenges have one hands down across the board in all three years. It only goes too show that girls are quite capable of doing "scouting" activities and even beating all boy teams!!!!

Even our girls team entered in Dragnet last year and the year before came second, and that is a national hiking comp across the lake district.

Camping, more tents solves that problem as discussed ealrier, we have been taking girls camping with us for the three years i have been invloved with our unit and troop.

I really don';t see what the problem is with introducing girls to a troop, and anyone who doesn't/won't really needs to be looking at why they are a leader.

Any one experiencing problems with leaders attitudes on co-ed should have a chat with their field development officer (deatils from DC's CC's or Gilwell). Our FDO for East Anglia has given some great seminars/speaches on co-ed and no-one could really argue with him.

Open your eyes and look to 2007!!!!

mattcollins171
26-03-2006, 10:33 AM
I believe that girls should be allowed in scouting. The group that I am a leader for are not accepting any girl at the moment, but if you were to look at our district you would see we are the only group that doesn't allow girl, so roll on 2007. I don't believe that there would be a separation between boys and girl, you just need to look at our explorer unit we are 21 strong with one girl but expecting more, but she has joined in with everything we do from very very fast paced games of hockey to very challenging off road cycling.

Steve Craven
26-03-2006, 03:41 PM
Mixed groups are the future.if We stay in the same old ways ,Run the same program year after year scouting will decline rapidly.
Modern girls have the same outlook as the boys will do the same things crawl in mud, get dirty, play the same games and will join in with everything .
Our 1st female group member joined as a scout has now got her warrant and is now the scout leader .We now have a split of about 70/30 in favour of boys in all sections
No boys left because we allowed girls they just brought their sisters!

David
26-03-2006, 06:06 PM
girls are aloud in scouting.
what they are changing is the groups ability to decide whether to allow them in or not to being 'if a girl wants to join there is notyhing you can do to stop it'

wealdbrook
26-03-2006, 07:02 PM
Being a group which was technically new just after all new groups ahd to be mixed, we have always been a mixed group. It has only caused one problem so far and we have a few girls who totally integrate with the Scouts (to the point that at the District Night Hike last Friday they refused to sleep in the separate room and slept with the boys in the main Hall (and were immediately joined by another girl from another group who was also unhappy at being segregated).
The only problem we have had is with one girl who joined before the age ranges changed and by the time she left she was "jail bait" and acted it. All the leaders were very careful and we made sure we were never alone, but she enjoyed Scouts and welcomed the male role models.
You don't need to have separate tents - we have several domes with a central partition, often the Scouts (and Cubs) all want to sleep together anyway. It is not a problem, it is only a few leaders who are either petrified or unwilling to change.
If anyone isn't sure, go along to a mixed troop for a few nights and you will soon see it isn't a big deal!

John

bobbles_lass
01-04-2006, 04:43 PM
Yes, I think girls should be allowed in Scouts - else where would I go? Guides? Well, yes (as well as scouting :) )
But I was sent a joke website earlier about Girlguiding UK merging with the SA - took me a while to realise it wasn't serious!
http://64.1.229.94/new/

Send it on to friends :)
Bob

matt2501
16-04-2006, 04:22 PM
I am all for it now, I was at an all wales explorer scout weekend and it was mainly girls, and it all went perfectly, unlike other events i have been at with no girls, and it is just like one big riot, ofm course, this is not just because of the girls, but they were clearly a contributing factor.

Allstar
10-05-2006, 10:11 PM
My Personal For
Interaction with Girls outside of a Classroom. Important at any age if you are shy and/or don't know how to talk to them.
Bigger Groups are attainable as there is a wider populous to 'recruit' from.


My Personal Against
Girls have more oppotunities than Boys

I have done most awards and badges when going through the sections in my 18 years of Scouting. Currently I have just my Queen Scout to do then I am done (besides Leading Qualifications [as far as I know]). Girls that are in both Guides and Scouts would have both their Queen Guide AND Queen Scout to do. 2 Rather big challenges. Whereas I have just the one.
Take it back further, I'm at Beavers, Cubs and Scouts a Girl could be in both Beavers, Cubs, Scouts, Rainbows, Brownies and Guides and would have the awards, certificates and merits of both to do.


Obviously the situation has gone too far to 'kick' girls out of the Scout Association but to make it mandatory?
Girls do distract boys, boys will be sillier to try to impress them so fruitful excerises will be not achieved in the same amount of time.
However if they are already in a group 'kicking' them out would be rude and unfair so
"Groups and Sections should have the choice; I think nearly 99% of the Groups would accept girls provided they were given a choice - even if they were only aware of it at a near POR level..."

scolliss
11-05-2006, 01:51 PM
One day this subject will disappear completely. For many years now it comes up with amazing frequency and by now I would have thought it would have exhausted itself, but no, I am constantly proved wrong.

Girls entered Venture Scouts many moons back and at one point about 10 years ago I was Venture Leader of the only known all-girl Venture Unit and it was a reasonable size too.

I considered myself a very lucky chap in those days, never had any problems and all things girlie were banned (Knitting and crochet etc). Needless to say it was not long before the lads noticed the talent and the Unit rapidly expanded to 30 strong with more or less a 50/50 split.

Such was the success the Group were quick to accept girls into Scouts as soon as they could. Never had a problem at all.

mark-piep
17-05-2006, 06:02 PM
well, im from the netherlands and at our group ( that excists 96 years now)
girls and boys are all the same. I like it very much beceause girls also add something to your scouting group. I think it would be boring if there would be only boys. I think you should not force groups to accept girls. If there choise is to not accept girls it disgusting. Girls are the same as boys and i would miss my freinds at my group if girls were not accepted.

bad groups:smash:

jshirra
17-05-2006, 08:24 PM
I think you should not force groups to accept girls. If there choise is to not accept girls it disgusting. Girls are the same as boys and i would miss my freinds at my group if girls were not accepted.

bad groups:smash: the biggest problem is change! the english hate it and we always complain untill the cows come home about it. but when it comes down to it we find that most change is good and does work. i don't know the structure of Scouting in general in the Netherlands but we have had a tradition of boys go to scouts, girls go to guides. thats how it has always been. to change this seems a huge, unessersery step yet it is nothing like what we think.

give it 2-3 years and this thread will have disapeared into the depths of forum history!

mark-piep
17-05-2006, 09:40 PM
If im right were the oldest group in the netherland and at the first ages the group was not mixed but now it is, and i like it. The beavers to older are all ixed so you just grow up with it. It's great to have girls in the group beacause they have some quality's boy's dont have or just dont wanna show...

CSL_Simon
19-05-2006, 03:19 PM
I am from a group with a large intake of girls. We continue on doing the scouting activities we always have done. This includes camping in PT's and cooking in there Sixes/patrols. Of course the Girls and Lads sleep in separate tents but what’s the big deal with that its only a case of putting up another tent. I commend the decision to make it compulsory for girls to be accepted into scouting. Many of our girls are also in Guides and they learn skills there that we are incapable of teaching whereas we teach them skills that they would not be able to do at Guides.

I do realise that what I am going to say is very opinionated but i feel that any leader who is willing to deny a girl access to something like Scouts which could enhance her life is selfish!

Scouting for ALL that’s what I say ;)

David26th
26-06-2006, 08:04 PM
I think the very notion of denying girls places in Scouting goes against the principles that Scouting is here to promote. And boy, doesn't my BSL know my thoughts on that subject...she's dreading 01/07

Sarah
27-06-2006, 02:54 PM
This thread has escaped my notice, but i had to reply!
I was a venture until they ended and was the only girl in the unit the whole time i was there, did they change their behaviour or the program because of me being a girl? not a chance! and i didnt want them to! I left guiding because scouting was much more what i wanted to do, that included the rough and tumble and all the rest, guiding and scouting are very different. I personally would've been more bothered if they 'softened' the program to include me as a girl, as it was they just accepted me a person.

This hasnt changed at all with us as network, the people that stick around both boys and girls are the ones who like the program and what goes on, scouting like anything else attracts like minded people, i don't think gender comes into it.

I've been in scouting for 10 years now, and if i had been denied that opportunity because i was a girl, i would have missed out on a great deal, i've had fantastic experiences and made a many brilliant friends.
I think all scout groups should have to give girls the option to join, the old boys club thing just isn't going to work, everyone can bring something new to a group no matter who they are, we should make the most of all our members. :)

simont
28-06-2006, 12:40 AM
I think girls in our troop will not only improve numbers but improve the section as a whole. I am new leader and all the other leaders think girls will ruin our troop, how can I persuade them otherwise?:banana:

Richard
28-06-2006, 08:04 AM
I think girls in our troop will not only improve numbers but improve the section as a whole. I am new leader and all the other leaders think girls will ruin our troop, how can I persuade them otherwise?:banana:

Simon

I have seen no evidence whatsoever that the inclusion of Girls in any group ruins Scouting, far from it.

If they read the support material and ask how they can manage situations that may concern them, there really shouldnt be any issue.

I have been to a number of events in the last year or so, with many girls enjoying Scouting.

The fact that girls will have the option to join your group is not up for debate, but there is some legitamate concerns that leaders have, that given the correct support from the GSL and District and County can be addressed. Hopefully it will calm many of these fears

matt2501
28-06-2006, 03:06 PM
Simon
I have been to a number of events in the last year or so, with many girls enjoying Scouting.
At the all wales Scout camp I would say there were probably almost half of the Scouts there were girls and I wouldn't say it ruined anything or caused any problems. When 'patroling' I was thinking about this, and it seems that some troops only have 2 or 3, and some have more girls than boys. Is this really the way it should be?

Bacon
28-06-2006, 05:08 PM
My two peneth...

Girls in SA.. yes
Girls joining prior to Scouts- no
Girls joining @ venture level - yes
(Sorry... i meant explorer level.)

Having never been a member of a mixed troop (except ventures) I really am not in a place to comment. Whilst I respect others opinions and in some cases agree with both sides of thee argument I personnally feel that having mixed troops of scouts could potentially be catastrpohic... Having said that I know people of both sexes who have been in mixed troops where everything has gone really really well and they were excellent troops, however I also know where the revere is opposite.
Our troop runs a "classic" troop, but we also have a GGUK group that also is heathy and sometimes we join togheter for joint activities.
However one thing that I am ADIMENTLY against is the COMPULSORY co-ed program. If there is no choice there is going to be problems i forsee......(Hopefully not, Actually I'm an optimist but on this matter i think there we be a media frenzey with the first case of "gender discrimination".... The only bets to make would be whether the broadsheets or tabloids controversify it first!)

Anyway, thats my contribution over.

Martin.

Penny
28-06-2006, 05:29 PM
As a female i have tried hard not to tke this thread personally.........What is wrong with us ?

i started my uniform days as a brownie...and hated it.........then i tried girls brigade............and hated it............so i didnt bother for many many years ubtil about 10 yrs ago was persuaded to come into scouting...........and absolutly love it...........i have grown and learnt so much about others and also about myself.

we have had girls in our group in all sections for as long as i can remember and have never had any problems with anything............Everyone is short of leaders ......dont you think more young females will carry on to be a leader?

there is not many things in life now which is single gender ( thank god).....

so to all the groups who have not had any females in any sections role on 07 i say and welcome them all with open arms and treat them just the same as you would as a male.......you will get more respect for that

rant over now

matt2501
28-06-2006, 05:39 PM
i started my uniform days as a brownie...and hated it...was persuaded to come into scouting...........and absolutly love it
I know a heck of a lot of people saying exactly the same

Sarah
28-06-2006, 06:18 PM
I'm another, Did the Brownie and Guide thing, then swapped over to Scouts instead, wouldn't think of going back.
Have to agree with Penny also in that, if you welcome everyone and treat them all the same, i can't see why there would be too many problems.
This may be controversial and perhaps not the same everywhere, but it seems over here that, more girls stay on into leadership roles, particularly going back down to work with the younger sections.

David
28-06-2006, 07:50 PM
ATM girls are accepted into groups
it is just their decision to say yes or no

forcing groups to accept is wrong, though getting more girls into scouting isnt, i like the fact that you can have girls in scouting for al the possitive reasons that have been posted above.


It is just the way that the SA are forcing the groups to change is wrong

Bacon
28-06-2006, 09:40 PM
David..
I think you have hit the proverbial nail on the head.:smash:

shiftypete
28-06-2006, 09:53 PM
I've got to agree with David as well. I support having Girls in Scout and pushed hard for our Group to go mixed a few years ago but I do disagree with forcing Groups to go mixed. I don't really see what the problem was with the previous policy of encouraging Groups to go mixed and once Group had gone mixed not letting them revert back to boys only. Importantly the decision was a local one with the Group left to decide what was right in their area.

Sarah
28-06-2006, 11:34 PM
Yep, forcing the issue, could do more harm than good, as i think has been said, the groups for which it is most appropriate have already taken it up, others where it is felt it wont work are going to resent not having an option.

Allstar
29-06-2006, 02:45 AM
It basically the same as a governing body taking away your/a choice. Telling people what to do is never a good attitude and more problems have arisen from this than solutions.

If anything the governing body should give more decision making power to groups.

Steve Craven
01-07-2006, 06:47 AM
If any leaders are worried about includng girls in their program go along to a mixed pack or troop for a night or two.
If you are still concerned about the programs you run, see how they work at a mixed group .I would be very happy for leaders from other groups to come along sharing info and ideas is the very best way to go forward.

jelly
07-07-2006, 09:56 AM
There shouldn't really be any need to alter the programme.

If any young person joins it should be because they want to take part in the activities on offer,.

David
07-07-2006, 11:41 AM
There shouldn't really be any need to alter the programme.

If any young person joins it should be because they want to take part in the activities on offer,.

exactly why would you join scouting?

- to do scouting activities

Luceh
13-11-2006, 05:03 PM
Hmm.. Well, I don't think groups should be forced to accept girls, but at least encourage them to be a little more... open minded. Girls come into scouting because they want to do the activities on offer. Fair enough, they could go and ask their guide leader if they could do a given activity, but it's a case of going with the majority. A lot of girls in guiding aren't really up for the more adventurous activities, and having been through guides myself, I see that many of them aren't enthusiastic about.. well, anything really. There's also the case of leaders being able to do the activities the girls want. Rules are a wee bit more strict in guiding; for instance, even to take them on a simple overnight camp requires 6 weeks notice, and that's if you've even had the time in the first place to undergo weeks of training, testing and filling in forms to get a camp permit.

All in all, I see no reason why girls shouldn't be allowed into scouting. It's their choice, and they do it because they're prepared to do more adventurous things than guiding may permit.

O.o

Kastor
30-11-2006, 08:00 AM
Interesting new twist on this has just appeared in Scouting. In the Beaver supplement its says

"...it is permissible to have a boys-only Colony/Pack/Troop, as long as there is another one open to girls, either girls-only or mixed."

Is this

1. a softening of Gilwells stance in the wake of a lot of concern by Leaders
2. another method of increasing the membership - if you want boys-only you'll have to open another Colony/Pack/Troop.

It also opens the possiblity of girls-only C/P/Ts. Now there's another can of worms.

Discuss.

Chris Lambert
30-11-2006, 08:03 AM
Interesting new twist on this has just appeared in Scouting.

That's not new - the option has always been there.

Kastor
30-11-2006, 08:10 AM
That's not new - the option has always been there.It's new to me.

wolfie
30-11-2006, 08:35 AM
I know this debate can run on and on but I thought I'd share our experience. (and please note I'm personally in favour of mixed sections and work hard to encourage it locally)

We have had girls in our Scout Troop for over 5 years, so 2 years ago we voted to become mixed in Beavers and Cubs too, and our leaders were all keen on the idea too.

All our families (so those with girls as well as boys) know, our web site explains it's all open to boys and girls plus we have a slot in the monthly village newsletters and tell the whole area regularly.

Despite that we still have no girls in either Beavers or Cubs!!! That could be because around here we have several Rainbow and Brownie units so a lot of girls tend to go there, then join us in Scouts (as there is no local Guide Unit close by) I guess it's also the snowball effect in the sense that once we have one or two then they'll tell their freinds etc etc.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is just opening up the sections doesn't mean you'll all be flooded with girls, but if you are I still see that as a good thing:)

jediwannabe
30-11-2006, 09:53 AM
That is pretty much the stance of the South African Scout Association. Girls only troops have been around for quite some time over here, so it's nothing new or interesting to me...

humpty
30-11-2006, 10:11 AM
Interesting new twist on this has just appeared in Scouting. In the Beaver supplement its says

"...it is permissible to have a boys-only Colony/Pack/Troop, as long as there is another one open to girls, either girls-only or mixed."

Is this

1. a softening of Gilwells stance in the wake of a lot of concern by Leaders
2. another method of increasing the membership - if you want boys-only you'll have to open another Colony/Pack/Troop.

It also opens the possiblity of girls-only C/P/Ts. Now there's another can of worms.

Discuss.

Its new to me. How close does the girls troop/colony need to be?

PeterSheppard
30-11-2006, 05:37 PM
Since the original announcement this has been a permitted action.

The GROUP must be open to both males and females. How you split up colonies/packs/troops WITHIN the Group is up to that Group.

This was in the co-ed supplement in Scouting a few months ago, but the wording was deinitely in the FAQs that accompanied the original announcement.

chalk_uk
30-11-2006, 09:32 PM
we have 4 girls in my troop and they r the only ones that wont to go to winter camp this year at gilwell. as the boys did not wont to get cold . so i say good for them . we use patrols tents alll the time and the grils and the boys get on well whive then so we find .