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Daniel
23-03-2004, 10:32 PM
hi,

im a young leader in the cub section and i am 17.

the cub leader was wondering if i would count as a leader when taking cubs out for nights, i.e. if the ratio was 1 leader to 6 cubs (may not be but just an example) would i count as a leader?

anyone know this?

thanks

daniel

Craig
24-03-2004, 06:36 AM
Hi,

Im a young leader with the Scouts, and im 16.

When we go out on hikes or activities, i am counted as a leader, because i've had some training on the young leader scheme, im also a qualified First Response First Aider (Plus - why they've put the plus on i dont know). So the Section Leader is perfectly happy for me to do that.

From what he has told me, and what he thinks is correct, is that, if the leader trusts you, you are responsible and you've done some form of training, then yes it would be ok.

The Scouts know on a Thursday night, that when we're doing activities, i have as much authority as the leader (and he's the GSL), and they respect it and trust me. If you can proove you're responsible you should be recognised as a leader.

When i also help on the Cub Summer Camps that they take the cubs to, i also act as a Leader.

So overall, i think, its down to the discresion (sp) of the GSL and the section leader.

Y.I.S.

Craig

Richard
24-03-2004, 11:58 AM
Hi,

Im a young leader with the Scouts, and im 16.

When we go out on hikes or activities, i am counted as a leader, because i've had some training on the young leader scheme, im also a qualified First Response First Aider (Plus - why they've put the plus on i dont know). So the Section Leader is perfectly happy for me to do that.

From what he has told me, and what he thinks is correct, is that, if the leader trusts you, you are responsible and you've done some form of training, then yes it would be ok.

The Scouts know on a Thursday night, that when we're doing activities, i have as much authority as the leader (and he's the GSL), and they respect it and trust me. If you can proove you're responsible you should be recognised as a leader.

When i also help on the Cub Summer Camps that they take the cubs to, i also act as a Leader.

So overall, i think, its down to the discresion (sp) of the GSL and the section leader.

Y.I.S.

Craig

I'm afraid, people under the age of 18, young leaders or not should not be counted in the Adult ratio for beavers, Cubs or Scouts. Its not down to the discretion of anyone.

Thats not to say that the contibution is any less valid, heck I started looking after Cubs when I was 13 as a Scout, but was never counted in the ratio.

Because of the Laws and insurance policies, and rules etc, you only count in that ratio when you are 18, that is when you have to do a Criminal Records check, and fill in a adult application form.

Thats not to say that how your young people you help lead should treat you any differently.

Chris
24-03-2004, 12:07 PM
Because of the Laws and insurance policies, and rules etc, you only count in that ratio when you are 18, that is when you have to do a Criminal Records check, and fill in a adult application form.

Thats not to say that how your young people you help lead should treat you any differently.

I have to agree with you, but it does bring up an interesting question, why isn't it in POR, all it says it that they require on 'adult', but there is no defination (sp) of an adult.

I was classed as a 'helper. when i was 16 and had to fill out the scout forms, although that was 8 years ago and things have now changed.

There are still too many black areas in the POR that need to be sorted.

It's great to hear from young leaders. I hope you are enjoying your selves.

Chris

Richard
24-03-2004, 01:31 PM
Yeah I think it needs to be made clearer, I also think part of the problem is the young leaders scheme is seriously left in the confines of Explorers, my knowledge of it is very limited. I can therefore imagine what the leaders on the ground knowledge of it is like.

Daniel
24-03-2004, 05:20 PM
its that we are going out some nights and if i am not classed as an adult for the cubs to leader ratio we will have to get some help - but this should be made more clearer by HQ - i will e-mail them to see what they say

Craig
24-03-2004, 06:06 PM
Then Richard, can you care to explain what our function is? To run arround and do odd errands on a section night? I thought and what ive been told is the whole idea of the young leader, is to give us responsibilty and let us do what the leaders do at the younger age.

If the leader to member ratio applied during the normal meeting night and activities, then we'd have to close the entire group down. On a thursday night, where i young leader, there is 2 warrented leaders, 21 scouts. SO by means of deduction, atleast 9 of them arn't allowed to come.

With the 2 young leaders that are there, myself and another of the Explorers, we make the leader count up to 24, and so everyone can be incorporated.

Thats what i thought and have been told the young leader scheme is all about, otherwise, what on earth is the point of it?

jamieharrop14
24-03-2004, 06:44 PM
Firstly, sorry for the post being so long, it seems to me that the only way to express my point was to do it this way.

A couple of years ago now before the new programme came in to light our group, including beavers right through to scouts was, lets face it, one of the worst in the district. We had Scouts turning up to every meeting in no uniform at all etc etc and to top it off the leaders were not even enforcing uniform and the other requirements.

The members, me included, turned up each week to a place which seemed more like a youth group where we play games all night and maybe do the odd stretcher using broom handles.

To be honest, we had a very bad reputation within the rest of the district, one example being, on a training weekend for a trip to Switzerland we were struggling to put up a dome tent (because we had never put one up before, instead we had just used patrol tents) and a leader came to us and asked us where we were from, "Warley" said Jamie, "<big sigh> Ah, that explains it" says leader. Get my drift? ;)

A few month before the new programme a new leader springs in to life here at Warley. He was an ex Territorial Army soldier. This was exactly what we needed. He soon did his training and started helping with the Scouts (of which I was a member at the time). It wasn't soon before his ideas came in to consideration. It was put forward that, in the time before we get the ESU setup, the 4 14+ year olds within the Scout Troop stand at the front during flag break, and help with the running of the section. This was the case until we got the ESU running. We were running 90% of the meeting, the leaders were very happy to sit upstairs and plan things while we took the scouts downstairs for activities, knowing that they could trust us to perform first aid if it was needed, to have a laugh with the scouts, to give them a clip around the ear if needed and basically anything else relating to the scouts. We loved it, we felt that we had loads more responsibility than before and that we were actually doing something to help the scouts.

Obviously at first the Scouts treat us like dirt, but we got back up and after so many weeks they knew who was boss. And yes, the first few weeks were spent with the 4 of us getting too excited and going overboard with the discipline side of things but that was us learning. Lets face it, a set of 15 year olds are not going to say "Excuse me Johnny, errm... if it is no bother to you would you like to sit down" it was more of a case of raising our voices after 2 attempts of "Sit your little backsides on that floor in your patrols".

We soon learnt that the best method was to stand and stare at them in silence while they spoke, then quietly reminded them once they had shut up that it was 10 minutes of their evening they had just waisted.

Remember... none of us had the 'propper' training by Young Leaders schemes, we had learnt ourselves. We planned the evenings, we planned the weekends, we had a meeting every month while the leaders ran the evening to discuss what we would do next with them.

Soon enough we, notice i say 'we' meaning the 4 Explorers, had them in to the new uniform, had taught them manners and doing, lets say, more Scouty activities. This was achieved by standing at the door on the way in and asking where their shoes were etc if they didnt have them. The new leader even had us all cleaning our shoes before each meeting, some people were not doing it so he brought his shoe polish and we spent half an hour doing that. This seems very harsh but they still enjoyed it.

Remember, again, we were not trained. We just had guidance from leaders. I personally agree with the idea that we should be allowed to become a leader (not officially but to play the roles us 4 did) as and when the leader sees fit. Trying not to harsh on Richard, i feel that anybody who has not gone through this leader stage with the programme as it is now cannot comment on such things as an exact age when we should be given the roles.

As for Craigs comments, I do agree but he makes it sound like he is talking about becoming an official leader. I agree that the age should be 18 for the official leader as we must remember the amount of paper work and general work outside the scout hut which goes on. My dad is a Beaver leader and he is covered in piles of it, i dread to think what my ESL is under.

James-J
24-03-2004, 07:04 PM
I'm a YL with my old Scout Troop and im 15, 16 in 2 months!!!!

My District has only just recognised who i am and a month ago i was contacted by the DESC to register me as an official YL. Before that, i had been helping lead the troop for about 18 months. I have recieved no offical support and the SL has taken me under his wing and is doing the training with me, I was just wondering if this is the same across the country or whether it is just me who is getting no support from the district?

Cheers,

Daniel
24-03-2004, 07:57 PM
well -

i have done module A of the young leaders scheme and i am going away for a weekend next week and doijng modules F to J.

We have not had any official meetings as young leaders but the weekend is geting us to know each other, or so i think.

we currently have 3 or 4 young leaders at our group and we seam to have quite alot of respect and responsability but when we go out..... thats when the problems start - do we count for the ratio or not - (as you said above were not) so we need parents to help - which means they all need checking. Luckly all our cubs mums and dads have had the form and are checked - and we have some very helpfull parents - but im 17 - explorers are from 14+ so i think we should be able to count for the ratio if were looking after cubs - there old enough to know whats right and wrong but so are we - together we should be fine.


daniel

Graham
24-03-2004, 08:54 PM
Thanks for your life story Jamie!

But back to the point, in out troop we have around 30 scouts, and beleive me they can be bloddy loud, and without the YL it would be a nightmare, so while I think they are a great idea for meetings, they shouldn't really go towards the ratio as they havent had CRB, first aid etc etc.

Hope this helps, (ell let's hope do)

Graham

Daniel
24-03-2004, 09:00 PM
well im 18 in january so .... by the time HQ get round to anything like stating what we do it will be too late for me, hehe

thanks for all your replys

Craig
24-03-2004, 09:03 PM
Yes, but Graham, the only thing i dont have is the CRB... that's because im not old enough for it!

Im a fully qualified first aider, and so there is no problem on that front, the group deliberatly put me through the training, purely because im a YL.

Craig

Graham
24-03-2004, 09:05 PM
It boils down to the same thing: Child Protection, no one can be truested with children, we are all peadophiles obviously.

Craig
24-03-2004, 09:12 PM
Then we come back to the question. What is the point of the Young Leader.

Daniel
24-03-2004, 09:13 PM
if it all boils down to child protection, Sorry scouts cant meet scouts - as one scout could be a prolem to another scout.

YL are supose to do the YL training anyway,

Whats the point in YL if we cant so anything

James-J
24-03-2004, 09:25 PM
In a perfect world, we would and should be allowed to count towards the ratio, but the fact is we live in a supposedly unsafe world where according to the bureocrats (sorry i cant spell) there are peados lurking around every corner and where paperwork is hampering the work of scouting and so stupidly we dont count

Richard
25-03-2004, 03:22 PM
I'm sorry about the length of the post but there are a number of quotes that needed answered.


its that we are going out some nights and if i am not classed as an adult for the cubs to leader ratio we will have to get some help

Yes the ratio is 1 adult to six Cubs, plus the Adult leader, but only for trips/camps


Then Richard, can you care to explain what our function is? To run arround and do odd errands on a section night? I thought and what ive been told is the whole idea of the young leader, is to give us responsibilty and let us do what the leaders do at the younger age.

When I was a Scout at 13 leading Cubs, there was no back up no support other than from the CSL. Though my district used my services at District Cub Camps. I must say after all the time I have helped out over the years, as a Scout, then as a ACSL and CSL, I was asked at aged 28 to be the AAC (Cubs).

I would never say that a young leader in todays setup is of less value. However the Scout Association, and your Group does have a legal and moral responsibility to ensure the safety of the Cubs. In todays setup and climate, you can only assume that responsibility in the Scout Association at aged 18. I'm sure most of the young leaders we have would and can keep their head in difficult situations, and I'm sure a number can deal with the parents with ease.

BUT the current setup in the SA, and for CRB dictates that you are classed as a young person until 18, when you turn 18, you are classed as an adult and need a CRB check done.


If the leader to member ratio applied during the normal meeting night and activities, then we'd have to close the entire group down. On a thursday night, where i young leader, there is 2 warrented leaders, 21 scouts. SO by means of deduction, atleast 9 of them arn't allowed to come.

But it doesnt. 1 warranted leader and 1 other adult is the minimum for a night in the Hall.


>Thats what i thought and have been told the young leader scheme is all about, otherwise, what on earth is the point of it?

The young leader scheme is about supporting you and giving you the right tools for the job, so when (hopefully) you wish at 18 to take out a warrant, the transition should be seemless, and you feel better equiped to take on the full responsibilities of the post.


Trying not to harsh on Richard, i feel that anybody who has not gone through this leader stage with the programme as it is now cannot comment on such things as an exact age when we should be given the roles.

The original query was Adult ratio for Cubs, this is not a debateable point, its fact, there are different ratios for diffent sections I will dig them out


I have recieved no offical support and the SL has taken me under his wing and is doing the training with me, I was just wondering if this is the same across the country or whether it is just me who is getting no support from the district?

I think it really depends where you live. I understand the SA are very upbeat about Explorer Scouts in general, we have a young leaders unit.


we currently have 3 or 4 young leaders at our group and we seam to have quite alot of respect and responsability but when we go out..... thats when the problems start - do we count for the ratio or not - (as you said above were not) so we need parents to help - which means they all need checking. Luckly all our cubs mums and dads have had the form and are checked - and we have some very helpfull parents - but im 17 - explorers are from 14+ so i think we should be able to count for the ratio if were looking after cubs - there old enough to know whats right and wrong but so are we - together we should be fine.

As I said above you dont count for ratio, thats the rules. At the end of the day if something does go wrong, which hopefully it doesnt, and a serious accident does occur, thats always when the s**t hits the fan.


It boils down to the same thing: Child Protection, no one can be truested with children, we are all peadophiles obviously.

I know you are saying that in an ironic way, but it can easily be misinterprated. The ratios are more to do with safety of young people on camp and outings. I lost a Cub on a campsite for half an hour, turned out he had slipped and hurt himself a little, but couldnt move. Had he ran away, been abducted these are just some of the issues, I MIGHT have had to deal with, and legally answer for.


In a perfect world, we would and should be allowed to count towards the ratio, but the fact is we live in a supposedly unsafe world where according to the bureocrats (sorry i cant spell) there are peados lurking around every corner and where paperwork is hampering the work of scouting and so stupidly we dont count

I think we need to remember that some 14 - 17 year olds can easily shoulder a large amount of responsibility, marriage (in Scotland anyway), driving, but lottery tickets, and be a valuable part of the leadership team. But the SA has to ensure it doesnt overburden people as well. Some people will never be the right person to be a leader, whatever their age!

Martyn
25-03-2004, 04:21 PM
Isn't it mainly due to Insurance
that below the age of 18 you can't be legally responisble

eg if something goes wrong you can't be sued as being the reason

But I bet Parent adult helpers are not told that they could be held responsible if something goes wrong

Martyn

Richard
25-03-2004, 04:24 PM
From POR:

BEAVERS
•indoor activities - 1 adult to 6 Beaver
Scouts;
• outdoor activities – 1 adult to 4 Beaver
Scouts;
• sleepovers – must at all times have a
minimum of 3 adults with a ratio of 1
adult to 4 Beaver Scouts plus the leader
in charge.

CUBS
• indoor activities – 2 adults one of whom
must hold a Warrant;
• outdoor activities (e.g. visits, outings,
pack holidays and any other activities
where the management of the Cub
Scout Pack may require close
supervision) - 1 adult to 6 Cub Scouts
plus the leader in charge.

SCOUTS
Leaders - there should be at least two
adults for the Troop, at least one of
whom must hold a Warrant

So the ratios apply in Beavers and Cubs only.

Craig
25-03-2004, 06:02 PM
I Young Leader with Scouts, so therefore that doesnt affect me.

And in England, you can be sent to a juvenial prison at the age of 10, so im sure you can be sued and held responsible.

Fair enough there's the you have to be 18 thing, but if the SA are saying this, why on earth did they invent young leaders?

On a normal section night, let's take tonight, i will probably turn up, collect any money for camps or subs and write reciepts (and sign them!), then get them fell in and the evening started (just as the leader turns up, because they have to travel a distance to get there) and get a game going. Then when we've done the game, this evening we'll be going out, so ill be responsible for looking after them when we go out. (i think we're either taking them up the downs, or down the woods) And then when they do the flag down, i'll help with any queries that parents have.

Thats what the leader lets, and asks, me to do. And so with what you're saying, i dont see that why we can't be held responsible at our ages... again, if not, why did they invent 'us'?

Martyn
25-03-2004, 07:06 PM
I don't think they invented you what they have done is formlized you

In the past when you helped at a section as a young person it really depended on the section Leader what you did

Some Leaders encouged the Young people getting them involved, giving reponsiblity, assiting with training etc
but others got the young people to hand out the orange sqaush and that was about it

I think the Young Leaders Scheme is a good idea as you have a fomlized training scheme and challenges to improve your leadership skils so at the end of your Young Leadership you have all the skills required to be an Adult Leader (Something the Association is crying out for)

The one thing I have to point out about


On a normal section night, let's take tonight, i will probably turn up, collect any money for camps or subs and write reciepts (and sign them!), then get them fell in and the evening started (just as the leader turns up, because they have to travel a distance to get there) and get a game going. Then when we've done the game, this evening we'll be going out, so ill be responsible for looking after them when we go out. (i think we're either taking them up the downs, or down the woods) And then when they do the flag down, i'll help with any queries that parents have.


If you pocketed all the money for the camp you would be to blame but the Leader would be responsible

Martyn

Daniel
25-03-2004, 07:51 PM
thanks richard,

so we now need yet another leader as the leader in charge does not count for the ratio when taking cubs outdoors.

thanks

daniel

Craig
25-03-2004, 09:55 PM
Yes, but i wouldnt do that Martyn, if i did, the DC, and the GSL would have me out before you could even say the word money.

Its all to do with trust.

Martyn
25-03-2004, 09:59 PM
I did not think you would, I am trying to point out the difference between responsiblity and blame

Martyn

Craig
25-03-2004, 10:01 PM
Yes, point taken.

But overall, it comes down to the DC, the DESC (if you've got one, because our district doesn't!), the GSL and the Section Leader you're working with (in my case, the GSL himself), and how they trust you, and give you responsibilties.

Mattdesc
13-04-2004, 08:50 PM
I know this discussion went on about a month ago, but after reading all the comments passed I felt I had to reply. I'm the DESC and also YLUL for our District, I set up Young Leaders over a year ago and have between 12 & 16 members on the programme all the time.

I have looked into many of the points you have rasied and can confirm the answers with some a great degree of certainty. (many leaders have asked these before)

First the ratio issue - YL's no not carry a "ratio number" they are there to take part in the leadership team but do not count as an adult. But yes in Scouts the ratio is minimum 2 'Adults'.

The idea of Young Leaders is to get the 14 -18 on the programme to give them oportunity to try out leadership first hand and to use the experience to gain service awards like D or E etc, but also to prepare them for becoming a Leader at 18 should they wish

Young Leader module training is NOT Leader training, it's a water down version and there is a big difference, i've been delivering them for the last 12 months!

If you don't have a YLUL them your responsibilty falls directly to the DC not GSL, although while you are out with the Beavers, Cubs, Scouts their Leader is responsible for you.

An important point to remember, and many leaders dont think of this, Young Leaders are part of the Youth Membership of the Scout Assiociation and therefore if you do go out anywhere your parents permission is needed just like it is for the Beavers and Cubs.

marcus
14-04-2004, 02:53 AM
Don't push it, I'm apparently in a youth section and I'm 20 :D - I'm not getting my parent's permission.

On a more serious note, good to see Roche has a good running Explorer Section, shame we can't say the same about Rotherham Phoenix next door :(

I tried to set up an ESU in Phoenix, and talked to the DESC but to be perfectly honest the take up is abismal, and not helped by misleading and in some cases dilibrerately obstuctive comments coming monthly from District meeting (which I can't attend).

Mattdesc
14-04-2004, 09:43 AM
I did say young Leaders, thats 14 - 18 year olds not 20 year olds, need their parents permission. If you are 20 you are not a Young Leader you are a adult Section Leader or Helper and should be training as so. But anyway....

I've heard about the issues with Explorers in Pheonix but I'm not going to pass comment on that, all I will say is I've gained some of your Socuts who are traveling all the way over from the other side of Rotherham so there must be some issues somewhere. Yes you are right unless your DC and DESC are working together for Explorers then it has no chance of working - but believe me the DESC position is harder work than it looks and I'm sure there are a lot of them out there just wondering what they have taken on, maybe that has somthing to with it.

marcus
14-04-2004, 10:59 AM
I wouldn't complain about our DESC, but rather our DC

David
15-04-2004, 12:25 PM
i thnk that 2 or 3 Y L leaders sjould count as and actula leader as then if somehting does happen thyey can work together but one on its own would not be able to do anything.

Martyn
17-04-2004, 08:13 PM
It comes back to responisbility.

In today's 'Blame' culture - Which of the 3 explorer scouts that were in charge (Acting as a Scout Leader) would you sue ?

As someoneelse said - The Young Leaders Scheme is designed to give young people the taste of being a 'Leader' and the responisibilities/actions invloved
So at 18 they can become a Leader knowing what is expected.

Yes they still would have to do the Leader Training but with new training scheme things that you already know count

Martyn

Daniel
01-05-2004, 03:49 PM
Hi,

Please visit this post.
Young Leader training
http://www.escouts.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=701

shiftypete
02-07-2004, 02:54 PM
The idea of Young Leaders is that they can help Section Leaders to run the programme and events but as they are not Adults have to be not put in a position of too great a responsibility so are NOT counted as adults for Adult to kid ratios. This does not stop it from being helpfull to have Young Leaders on activites.

Craig
02-07-2004, 06:30 PM
Adult to Kid ratios only apply in Beaver and Cubs section

Martyn
02-07-2004, 11:33 PM
1) Why don't you count
I think I have said this before
but it's the difference between Responsibility and Blame

If something goes wrong while you are 'running' a Scout/Cub/etc meeting you might be to blame but being under 18 you can't be responisible.

2) Why Young Leaders - To give you the oppotunity to experience all the fun of being a leader.

Being a Leader is one of the best things in the world - watching a young person learn something new (1 + 1=2) , try something new etc etc

I think the Young Leaders Scheme is a wonderfull idea - It gives young people Training/guidence and Knowledge on whats involved but also provides a 'safety net'

It will also hopefully provide a crop 'skilled' Leaders that will be able to fit right in at 18 and I think the young Leader Training will be taken into account when you do Leader Training.

Old fuddy duddy point - Experience comes with age

Example - A few years ago my VSU went to Spain on the trip we had with us a Venture Scout who was 1st Aider for a whole floor of an office block she had been on this course and that course which was great (she checked our 1st aid box went and brought all the right things etc)

One event we did was horse riding we were supposed to get beginners horses but a couple of Ventures didn't his horse was completly uncontrolable rearing up kicking out etc

when we got back to the site the Venture Scout went into what I'll describe as shock 'total ridged and shivering'

It was ok though as we had our 1st aider - except
she spent 10 minutes getting in the way shouting hot sweet tea in the end one of the other Leaders had to drag her away so we could deal with the causulty

Memorable thought - Me kettle full of water in one hand tea bags, milk and suger in the other trying to get to the stove with a Venture Scout standing in the way shouting Hot sweet tea.

I hate to think what would have happened if an Adult Leader had not been there.

Martyn

Martin_S
20-08-2006, 10:15 AM
Hi,

I'm a YL and have benn unoffically for about 4 years. I'm 16 and have in the last year been approached by my GSL to join YL's, which I have an really enjoyeed it. I am heavily involved with my cub pack, doing a lot of the planning and admin work, however my feelings on counting as an adult are as follows:

Despite the fact I am only 16 i get a huge amount of respect and recognition from my cubs, leaders and parents. We are lucky that we have about 4 regular warrented leaders who can help out when we go away or out on an activity, however if we didn't it would be a different story!

I am very confident in dealing with the cubs, am first aid trained and can take the lead, however I would feel terrible (just as any adult would) if the sole responsibility of a child was on my shoulders! I think the scout association has made a good decision to shelter us from this massive responsibility! Just imagine how you would feel if you were under 18 and one of your cubs/beavers or scouts had an accident while in your care?