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Mang
26-09-2007, 12:36 PM
As you can see I've asked the Chief for his own personal take on wearing uniform but the related discussion topic wouldn't let me do a poll so I've stuck it here. (Thread moved to Related Discussion - Chief Scout Questions)

So what about you 'orrible lot?! Personally I'm a deicated uniform wearer except I prefer my own woggle (sometimes two) to the dark brown standard issue ones.

In fact I like wearing my uniform in public and often wear a group tshirt at other times.

Keith
26-09-2007, 12:45 PM
I wear full uniform every week. I normally wear trainers, except for things like church parade and st georges day.

derekchambers
26-09-2007, 01:03 PM
i wear full uniform most of the time at meetings, summmer we tend to wear group t shirt and often if i am helping out on other activities i wear group t short ot sweatshirt

JeanieJ
26-09-2007, 01:09 PM
I wear jeans and trainers with my uniform shirt (2 neckers - Group and Explorer Unit) for meetings
Full uniform for church parade
Adult Polo and necker for activities or Centenary T-Shirt.

chalk_uk
26-09-2007, 01:21 PM
i wear full uniform each week to scouts

Shaun
26-09-2007, 01:22 PM
Depends on the activity or what I've planned for the night.

Minimum is Polo Shirt and necker if I expect to be running about or I'm helping beavers.

Otherwise it's Shirt, open collar, necker, trousers and shoes/boots at all other times I have my own woggle, turks head. If it encourages one person to learn to tie the knot for their own woggle then it's served it's purpose.

For church parades I do the collar up and wear my medal ribbons.

On Camp it's normally activity trousers, a Calvin and Hobbes t-shirt and my Scout Hat, need to have a rethink as one t-shirt got trashed on the last camp.

I let my cubs wear their own woggles as long as it's the right colour for their six.

Viking
26-09-2007, 01:31 PM
I am a warranted leader, and try to wear my uniform as little as possible - about 5/6 times a year. I think the Chief has got it spot on!

Mang
26-09-2007, 01:46 PM
I am a warranted leader, and try to wear my uniform as little as possible - about 5/6 times a year. I think the Chief has got it spot on!

That's interesting, what do the kids think?

jediwannabe
26-09-2007, 01:55 PM
Uniform is a must for my Troop. We let them get changed after flag break into something more comfortable.

I believe that our uniform is one of the major things (visually) that distinguishes us from "just another youth club".

Viking
26-09-2007, 01:56 PM
That's interesting, what do the kids think?

Like minded!

Biscit
26-09-2007, 02:29 PM
Uniform has to be comfortable and practical- I dislike uptight types who on camp put their uniform away in a hermetically sealed bag on a hanger the moment any flag ceremony is finished.

Creases and stains show you've done scouting in your uniform.

David26th
26-09-2007, 02:38 PM
I tend to wear what feels appropriate. At pack nights I'm usually full uniform (or group t-shirt as dependent on washing!) When I'm out on parade it's sport on, and when I'm out doing PR? I actually dress down a little. I feel the current uniform still presents a slightly stuff appearance so I tend to unbutton the top button, friendship knot, few fun charity badges - just create a more friendly appearance.

Shaun
26-09-2007, 03:18 PM
Uniform has to be comfortable and practical- I dislike uptight types who on camp put their uniform away in a hermetically sealed bag on a hanger the moment any flag ceremony is finished.

Creases and stains show you've done scouting in your uniform.
Or you're too lazy to get changed before you do something messy.

On camp I could wear my uniform, but I choose not to, if I have a hanger it's hung up.

The practical reason I insist cubs wear uniform to camp is to ensure that they all have at least one long sleeved top with them with some heat retaining properties. If I am planning a messy evening then the cubs don't wear uniform. Most YP have old tatty clothes they have worn out, most have only one uniform they wear once/twice a week.

I agree uniform should be comfortable and practical, but it is also designed to be smart and life on camp doesn't keep it that way.

I have the polo shirt for times when I know I'm going to be running around, that doesn't stop me running around in my shirt, the polo shirt is easier to iron, creases fall out if it is rolled up in my rucksack, so is my uniform of choice for a camp.

Am I uptight? I don't think so, am I proud of my uniform and want to keep it smart? Yes I am and I do:bigsmiley

ianw
26-09-2007, 03:45 PM
No wrong answer to this one....for me, it depends....

Right now I've got my Unit t-shirt on, as it's Wednesday, not that I'm actually going tonight, but I am going to a district ADC/GSLs meeting, which isn't uniform.

I went to a DESC county meeting last night which wasn't uniform.

I popped in to Network Monday, not in uniform.

When I invest someone, it's usually on an activity, so I'll put two scarves on, and pass one over to them. No uniform.

Theme Park Camp, Theme Park Camp logo'd polo shirt Friday night, Summit Network polo shirt Saturday, and my responsible adult t-shirt the rest of the time, or a Gilwell24 one if the other gets too sweatybetty.

The AGM, St. Georges service, Remembrance Sunday, bag packing, uniform. My cunning ruse is that I wear dark blue craghoppers that are damn close to the activity trousers. Buying a pair of special scout trousers seems pointless.

I would rather someone turned up to Remembrance Sunday, say, in a shirt, necker, and smart trousers (black school trousers etc), than not turn up.

I realise that lots of people don't agree with me, as they've told me so. ;)

Knotso
26-09-2007, 03:47 PM
Scout/Cub/Beaver meetings - "battledress" uniform - Long/short sleeved shirt (done up), necker, woggle, activity trousers, black trainers. All kids - same (optional change for games).

Formal occasions - "dress" uniform - shirt, necker, Gilwell woggle, smart trousers, name badge.

Very formal occasions - "full dress" - as above but tie & tie pin + ribbon

Informal occasions - "fatigues" - Group polo, Leader polo, other Scouting polo (to suit), uniform shorts (as appropriate), name badge (if required) but always with Woodbadge as badge of office and appropriate metal pin badge for the occasion. (Woodbadge looks cool in this attire and, in my experience those without one makes them want to achieve one even more..!).

All other occasions - Scouting T-shirt or other Scouty item - I don't have many other "civvy" clothes! I have a big collection of hats too to suit every occasion.

No Scout branded underwear available, otherwise I'd wear those too (probably).

Like Austin Lill, I wear proper uniform in public with pride. Scouting is so much more than a youth club - and the uniforms/outfits are a very important part of The Game (as demonstrated at WSJ). The key is to adapt the right look for the right occasion.

My wife is not too keen going round Sainsbury's with me when I'm wearing my camp blanket (see Avatar). I don't know if it's just the visual impact or the distinct perfume it has accumulated after 1000 campfires...

Knotso - fashion conscious

Biscit
26-09-2007, 03:48 PM
Or you're too lazy to get changed before you do something messy.

No. I just believe in B-P's dictat- "A Scout is not a snob"

Never call me lazy.

Viking
26-09-2007, 04:03 PM
Judge us by what we do, not what we wear.

Judge me by the progressive training scheme I provide, the experiences I facilitate, the memories I create, the advice I offer, the time I give to and for young people - not whether I look smart when I do it or not. If the main thing that seperated Scouts from an ordinary youth group was the uniform, I would give Scouts up now and join that ordinary youth group - fortunatley I don't think it is.

A cadet (army, sea or air) wears a uniform - and rightly so, they are military orientated groups. Why I must wear a shirt with badges on, I'm not so sure. We could wear binbags and this would distinguish us from just an ordinary youth group, but I wouldn't suggest it. I think the uniform and badges are 'swanks- and a Scout is not swanky'

A polo shirt with a necker is my 'uniform' of choice. It is what I feel comfortable in. Each to their own though, if you want to wear a uniform thats up to you, I don't think any more or less of you for it.

Biscit
26-09-2007, 04:24 PM
If you mean the official polo shirt, that is uniform.

Shaun
26-09-2007, 04:31 PM
Interesting thread this.

I think the uniform options we have now are so much better than when I was a YP, 20 or so years ago.

Then there was one uniform option for everyone, there were very few group t-shirts, so you wore your uniform or you wore your own clothes.

My cub jumper served three of us and the only reason my brother got a new scout shirt was that I joined Scouts so a new shirt was needed.

Nowadays we and the YP have the choice of uniforms, even down to the trousers you can wear smart and activity long or short.

If you know what is going to happen then you can change your clothes appropriately.

You know you are going outside onto the muddy field, you wouldn't wear bright white trainers, well I wouldn't, there will be times when you have your bright white trainers on that you have to go into the muddy field so they are now muddy, people won't think that poor chap had to go into the field, they think why did he wear white trainers.

We now have the option to wear a more casual uniform, polo shirts for activities that may get messy or be more physical, where the shirt could get dirt, stained or ripped.

The polo shirt cost's less than the shirt and doesn't require me to sew badges on so is better than a second/best shirt.


Never call me lazy.

I never called you lazy, I merely offered it as a different point of view to a creased and stained shirt saying that you had done scouting in your uniform, what else would you do in your uniform?;)

As I have said there are times where circumstance change and you aren't able to get out of your uniform or you have to get it messy, I've had to change a tyre on the way home from work life happens, doesn't mean to say that I would wear a suit to work on the car.

My last camp one of my t-shirts got trashed, which would have been better a £4 t-shirt or a £20 shirt plus badges?

Biscit no offence was meant or intended:bigsmiley

Akela Ben
26-09-2007, 04:35 PM
Has anyone else noticed Scouting uniforms always come up smaller than normal clothing. I'm one of those leaders who enjoys a pie, or as I say festively plump. I would normally wear a 3xl shirt, but I can't even get into the Scouting shirts sized 4xl and this is the largest shirt they do. So reluctantly having to cut out a few pies.:(

MikeJ
26-09-2007, 05:19 PM
I wear my uniform every meeting, although the shoes and trouses aren't necessarily correct activity wear.

At camp, generally wear t-shirt/shorts etc unless uniform is required for something like sunrise or scouts own.

At a previous group, we used to wear activity wear to meetings, and the leader had to keep telling me when to wear proper uniform - for investitures. Its so much easier just to wear one type all the time.

Skip Ian
26-09-2007, 05:32 PM
Believe in the uniform wear it every opportunity. Wear my Scout home made badge jacket every day. On camp wear uniform first thing then hang it up for rest of day unless clean activities.

Even wear one world one promise wrist band at work as to wear something Scouting

robp1970
26-09-2007, 05:42 PM
Shirt, Necker & Woggle, with Smart Jeans & trainers every week... Smart trousers & Shoes for church parades...

kira
26-09-2007, 05:44 PM
i wear my uniform shirt on troop nights, usually with jeans and trainers and on church service's and other public appereances i wear smart trousers with my shirt. in our troop shirts always have to be tucked in, untucked shirts just look shabby

Daniel
26-09-2007, 05:47 PM
Ok, i've moved this thread into the Related forum, any issues with voting please give us a shout.

MikeJ
26-09-2007, 06:01 PM
Ok, i've moved this thread into the Related forum, any issues with voting please give us a shout.

I can't vote :(

Daniel
26-09-2007, 06:08 PM
ok, bang goes that idea then ;) Richard will have to look at the forum permissions, to allow voting in this forum, ill move it back for the time being.

Testarossa
26-09-2007, 06:41 PM
I always wear uniform to meetings unless I've told the kids they don't have to. I feel that if I expect them in uniform, then I should do the same - set an example and all that.

Some of the Scout Leaders don't always wear uniform, others do and I have no problem with that - it is their section, not mine. My daughter has never mentioned the fact that they have to go in uniform when the Leader doesn't.

I might add that I do have both a shirt and a polo shirt, and during the warmer months, I wear my polo shirt to meetings.

Mang
26-09-2007, 08:16 PM
tie & tie pin

I wear proper uniform in public with pride.

My wife is not too keen going round Sainsbury's with me when I'm wearing my camp blanket (see Avatar). I don't know if it's just the visual impact or the distinct perfume it has accumulated after 1000 campfires...



Personally I'd never wear a Scout tie

Good to see someone else mention pride in the uniform

Maybe the blanket's 1000 campfire life of its own is why you also can't bend you're arms whilst wearing it (as per your avatar?!):D



When I'm out on parade it's spot on, and when I'm out doing PR? I actually dress down a little. I feel the current uniform still presents a slightly stuff appearance so I tend to unbutton the top button, friendship knot, few fun charity badges - just create a more friendly appearance.

I've heard folk discribe the unifrom as dull amongst other things so what would people do to pimp it?:pimp: Epaulettes? Redesigned/ larger badges? A service badge for the left arm? Do away with fiddly ribbon badges? A lemon squeezer hat?!

I'd also be interested to find out why anyone who voted for smart in public doesn't do smart in the HQ

(Sorry to single you out David but your post covers all the bits I wanted to post!)

shiftypete
26-09-2007, 08:17 PM
At a normal Unit meeting I wear Uniform shirt and necker with jeans and trainers.

I wear full Uniform to Church parades etc and to and from camps. I don't wear any Uniform in camp itself as it would get absolutely filthy and we do wear Uniform on activities out of camp so it need to be presentable to the public even after a week on camp. For walks etc on camp we have camp t-shirts to wear with neckers which is a compromise as it is more practical than Uniform shirts which are too hot and uncomfortable to walk in but it still makes us readily identifiable as Scouts and reasonably smart.

Penny E
26-09-2007, 08:31 PM
I always wear uniform to meetings unless I've told the kids they don't have to. I feel that if I expect them in uniform, then I should do the same - set an example and all that.

I might add that I do have both a shirt and a polo shirt, and during the warmer months, I wear my polo shirt to meetings.

Totally with you on that Testarossa - how can we expect them to turn up looking smart in uniform if we don't?

It does slightly go to pot at camp, when I wear jeans and Scout top/scarf at flag-break, and personal clothing much of the time, but that is just because of hygiene. Unless I had 2 sets (or more) of uniform, I wouldn't want to be around me at camp!

Can any of the Lady Scouters recommend an alternative to the ghastly official Scout trousers? One leg of my pair is two inches wider than the other, and they make me look like the original Fat-Bottomed Girl, which I am not! They are rubbish.

A PM will reach me girls - I don't think we'd survive 5 minutes on the Forum discussing "Ladies Fashion". ;)

Penny E

nele
26-09-2007, 08:31 PM
I usually wear full uniform for meetings, and formal occasions but sometimes wear jeans or if behind with washing short of tme etc.
I wear a group sweatshirt over the top in the winter, as our hall is freezing and I can't fit enough stuff under the shirt.

None of the kids in our group have uniform trousers. The group uniform lady doesn't stock them, so they have to be ordered specially, and given the weird sizing that's a pain.
So we ask them to wear dark coloured trousers for formal events.
After flagbreak they can take their shirt off if they want to for games.

At camp we wear uniform for travelling and flag break. I tend to get them to wear something else in between. Afterall if you're at camp for 10 days the uniform would be pretty ripe by the end! We also have a group tshirt for excursions

wolfie
26-09-2007, 08:49 PM
Looks like us ladies go for the same approach then - as I'm with Testarossa and Penny E on this one!

As "only" an Associate Member but someone who helps run any Section where we have a gap if needed (so Cubs at the moment) the deal I do with the youngsters is if they are supposed to be in uniform I will to - even though my family roll around the floor in hysterics every time (will they never get bored...)

Has lead to some interesting conversations in everywhere from Woolies to Morrisons that probably wouldn't have happened otherwise - leading to everything from a new SA for Scouts to the offer of a few acres for use by the Troop for greenfield camps.

So if it's uniform it will be shirt, necker and "scary face" woggle (which the Cubs love) combined with smart trousers etc. If it's not uniform but we need to find our lot anongst hundreds it will be group polo shirts (black with gold logo, practical, easy to wear and look after and not too expensive.)

For all our Sections it's usually uniform to / from camp but other stuff whilst there. Full uniform for formal events like Parades etc.

For camps like the one the Troop just did to Norway we tend to get expedition t-shirts made, again helps with ID from afar at big events. The Norway ones were great as we had the signatures of everyone going printed on the back. So those Scouts who've been on a few camps have quite a collection they can use each time.

To help with cost we encourage parents to doante items finished with to our uniform stall, so we can sell at low prices and use the money for our discretionary fund (one of the uses of which can be to pay for uniform if it means a child can then join)

wealdbrook
26-09-2007, 09:13 PM
We are a uniformed organisation, we should wear it when the public will see us (unless it would be stupid to do so due to wet/mud/safety/etc), for meetings where the members are there and for meetings where parents will be there and they need to be able to identify the leaders.

I went to the Explorer welcome evening for Scouts coming up to 14 last night, since I help with the YLs I put my scarf on (I meant to put shirt on as well but got home from York at 19:50 and had to be at the event at 20:00 with 10 minute drive! Scarf was a good compromise!

Raksha
26-09-2007, 09:34 PM
I wear my blue Sea Scout uniform with pride. I do struggle with the tricorn, but thats cos I hate hats! I wear it on Troop nights, and to events and camp. I also have Scout polo shirts and wear those for certain activities.
I wear black trousers with my uniform, and also have Scout activity trousers. I go along with the festivley plump angle and also have to buy trousers a size larger than I would normally. Penny E try regatta trousers, or plain black tesco value ones, cheap, cheerful and dont wear out!

Skip Ian
26-09-2007, 09:38 PM
Went to the Jamboree as a day visitor and driving home it was great to pass cars / mini buses full of uniform. I didn't travel in uniform but did start at 6 am and get back at midnight. Learnt that day from a fellow road using leader always wear your knecker if not the shirt when travelling to an event as if your lost you know who to follow and traveling alone you can always meet up with other Scouts if they see the knecker.

Daniel
26-09-2007, 10:38 PM
We always have full unifrom, unless were going out to the woods, when the group polo shirt with necker is suitable.

Doughboy
27-09-2007, 07:26 AM
As I'm not linked to a group I don't have a need to wear uniform each week - but whenever I visit one of my ESU's I'll check with the ESL what the best option would be depending on the planned activity.

Always wear at least the uniform polo shirt or a District Team polo when helping out at other events. I think uniform is an importnat factor in distinguishing us from just another youth club.

One observation I'd make relates directly to the youngsters - working on a Service Crew we see lots of Guides as well as Scouts, and nearly every Guider I know and have spoken to does not like the vast range of options that make up the GirlGuiding UK 'uniform'. Also, they think it's a real shame their girls can't show how much work they've dne by displaying the badges they been awarded on a uniform.

Not saying it's try of all Guiders - but it's certainly my experience.

higgy47
27-09-2007, 07:33 AM
i feel uniform is a very important part of scouting and everyone should wear it with pride.

for me it varies though

Troop Nights:
im an explorer leader so i expect them all in uniform. Mine is usually Shirt necker and jeans and trainers because its practical. If my kids dont have uniform for any reason i ask them to at least have a necker. better the kids are there than punish them for not having uniform

on camp:
Always have a necker on at least and some scout related tshirt. i got pissed off with people at jamboree who didnt have a necker on or anything

Dress uniform and travelling
has to be shirt and kilt and full uniform etc. i wear this to travel as you get approached and people ask you about these sort of things. yeah it may seem like i want the attention but you always hear people comment on how good your scouts are looking or how smart they are. and sometimes old people tell you good stories

Rachel
27-09-2007, 09:00 AM
So if it's uniform it will be shirt, necker and "scary face" woggle (which the Cubs love) combined with smart trousers etc. If it's not uniform but we need to find our lot anongst hundreds it will be group polo shirts (black with gold logo, practical, easy to wear and look after and not too expensive.)

For all our Sections it's usually uniform to / from camp but other stuff whilst there. Full uniform for formal events like Parades etc.

For camps like the one the Troop just did to Norway we tend to get expedition t-shirts made, again helps with ID from afar at big events. The Norway ones were great as we had the signatures of everyone going printed on the back. So those Scouts who've been on a few camps have quite a collection they can use each time.



I agree with you on this! I would also like to add to the fact that for camps, and several unit meetings the activity trousers are just impracticle as all of the scout uniform is highly flammable, and I aim not to set my scouts on fire!

We now have a new scout leader at my group and he has introduced some new things to the group, whilst its great to have new blood and fresh ideas, I think it runs the risk of loosing alot of the scouts (already heard of 5 that are planning to leave and we are only currently running with 15) as well as too of the leaders! One of his new ideas (this one isn't actually a bad one) is to re-introduce the knot in the knecker for the good deed. I was wondering if anybody else does this with there scouts?

JeanieJ
27-09-2007, 09:26 AM
One of his new ideas (this one isn't actually a bad one) is to re-introduce the knot in the knecker for the good dead.

Rachel, I really hope this is a typo!! If they were dead I don't think you'd need a knot to identify them!! :)

Skip Ian
27-09-2007, 09:36 AM
Rachel, I really hope this is a typo!! If they were dead I don't think you'd need a knot to identify them!! :)

although a knot that tight is something I think about with quite a few of the Scouts!:bigsmiley

Knotso
27-09-2007, 09:59 AM
you also can't bend you're arms whilst wearing it

Top marks for observation! Whilst my good lady has to push the trolley and I can't help much with the bag packing, it DOES mean that nobody can push in front of us.:D

_________________________
Knotso - Community spirited

tomahawk
27-09-2007, 01:20 PM
i wear my uniform most of the time in winter, but opt for group T-shirt in Summer. Group polo for activity days.

But at Beavers we dont have inspections and flag breaking and its all rather less formal. I think if you do inspections with your troop/pack, then you must set an example.

Im also with IanW on the idea that a smart pair of trousers (like grey school flannels) is just as good as a formal pair of Scout trousers. Scouting must be accessible for all, and many parents cannot afford to buy extra expensive trousers every 5 minutes for their lads who are outgrowing everything - or putting their knees through them. I know that others dont agree, either ;)

Skip Ian
27-09-2007, 01:24 PM
I agree and ask that the Scouts wear school trousers rather than demand more expense, especially as I was under the impression that the uniform was originally brought in to hide the "Class Gap" personal clothing can highlight.

Also we dont have a group T-Shirt or polo Shirt so anyone with good suppliers let me know as our GSL has asked me to source a supplier for the Group.

Biscit
27-09-2007, 02:07 PM
Has anyone else noticed Scouting uniforms always come up smaller than normal clothing. I'm one of those leaders who enjoys a pie, or as I say festively plump. I would normally wear a 3xl shirt, but I can't even get into the Scouting shirts sized 4xl and this is the largest shirt they do. So reluctantly having to cut out a few pies.:(

I was told by my local school uniform shop that the leader, explorer and scout shirts are on the same size scale!!!!

The current uniform was not designed to look smart- it was designed to look active.

The shirt was designed to be worn tucked or untucked. Certainly half and half is bad, but people who have a go at the kids for wearing the shirt in one of the ways it was designed to be worn need to get a sense of perspective.

No, I don't wear my uniform all the hours I am out of my sleeping bag on camp, or indeed when painting or using extreme oil. I think it is right to remove it when you are so active it would get torn. But a small amount of dirt from the ground is not trashing my uniform, nor is it not having pride. Coat hangers are a big no-no for me, if you think shoving your shirt in a bag when you are not using it is showing it disrespect, you miss the point badly. We are not the boys brigade, even though our founder supported them.

And yes I have:

2x short sleeve.
1x long sleve
1x polo
1x sweatshirt

Which is not what most kids have, i understand.

Viking
27-09-2007, 02:26 PM
But at Beavers we dont have inspections and flag breaking and its all rather less formal. I think if you do inspections with your troop/pack, then you must set an example.

I would agree with Tomahawk on this one, if you insist on conducting inspections, you should set an example. I just hope there aren't many out there who do insist on inspections, whether it be for Beavers, Cubs, Scouts, Explorers or even Scout Fellowship!

wealdbrook
27-09-2007, 03:13 PM
I just hope there aren't many out there who do insist on inspections, whether it be for Beavers, Cubs, Scouts, Explorers or even Scout Fellowship!

Why not, we are a uniformed organisation, we should be proud of it and the members should know how to wear it and what it means. In my view it is all about self respect, belonging and being proud to be a Scout.

Biscit
27-09-2007, 03:27 PM
Being proud of the uniform does not equate to holding inspections.

And I find it a little biogted that scruffy people, or people who behave or look a little different are lacking in anything let alone self respect.

Viking
27-09-2007, 03:32 PM
I hadn't realised I belonged to a 'uniformed which gets inspected' organisation. I don't think you instill self-respect by inspecting people, I don't think people have a feeling of belonging because they get inspected and I certainly don't think they feel proud because they have been inspected. What happens to those who 'fail' inspection?

shiftypete
27-09-2007, 03:34 PM
They make more effort to have a properly turned out Uniform the nest week

Biscit
27-09-2007, 03:35 PM
I hadn't realised I belonged to a 'uniformed which gets inspected' organisation. I don't think you instill self-respect by inspecting people, I don't think people have a feeling of belonging because they get inspected and I certainly don't think they feel proud because they have been inspected. What happens to those who 'fail' inspection?

Well put.

I show I am proud of my uniform and Scouting itself simply becuase I wear it.

My collar being turned up or buttons being unfastend do not alter one iota that pride or my self-respect.

As a sufferer of ASD I lack the ability to notice certain things, but I do think it gives me the advantage over normal people in that I am better able to spot irrelevances.

Viking
27-09-2007, 03:38 PM
They make more effort to have a properly turned out Uniform the nest week

and if they don't the next week?

shiftypete
27-09-2007, 03:46 PM
The way our Troop do inspection is not exactly a pass or fail anyway. We give each patrol a mark out of 10 for inspection which is added to our ongoing patrol points competition. We are basically looking for them to have a shirt, necker, trousers, record book and pen and to look reasonably smart (i.e. necker not ridiculously creased and trousers not all muddy etc.)

I don't think it is too much to check if Scouts have actually turned up with their uniform and other required items and don't look a total mess.

wolfie
27-09-2007, 04:43 PM
I agree and ask that the Scouts wear school trousers rather than demand more expense, especially as I was under the impression that the uniform was originally brought in to hide the "Class Gap" personal clothing can highlight.

Also we dont have a group T-Shirt or polo Shirt so anyone with good suppliers let me know as our GSL has asked me to source a supplier for the Group.


We have used advertees for all sorts -- from badges to t-shirts and polo shirts. Nothing is ever too much trouble (including those 38 signatures!), very helpful and will turn a drwaing into a work of art. Thoroughly recommend them as good value but a product that lasts well through numerous washes!


http://www.advertees.co.uk/

this link shows our Beavers in our group polo (black and gold) http://www.scubes.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=198&Itemid=224

whilst this one shows the Norway t-shirt http://www.scubes.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=187&Itemid=214

Shaun
27-09-2007, 08:48 PM
Gosh we're branching out into inspections........

I don't inspect my cubs, I don't have to.

I can see whether their uniform is servicable at the Grand Howl, I have taught them all how to iron their neckers and sweatshirts and to sew their badges on, but at 8 - 10 age range I suppose I would have to dock the parent's points :D.

I think a lot of people forget that the purpose of the inspection is to ensure that quipment is servicable, with the Army that includes the soldier themself because they are a piece of equipment. You will always get someone who want's to take it to the nth degree.

Besides we all know someone that can make whatever they wear look not as smart as everyone else.

Back to the coat hanger on camp discussion, I always carry one in my big metal rucksack with four wheels, but then that's because I can:bigsmiley

Raksha
27-09-2007, 09:28 PM
Besides we all know someone that can make whatever they wear look not as smart as everyone else.Oh, Shaun, you promised you wouldn't tell! :smash: I do try my hardest you know!! :D

wealdbrook
27-09-2007, 09:46 PM
Our inspections are not about the minutae of detail - just having the uniform on and roughly right is what we look for.

I am proud of the Scout uniform - Scouts still (just) means something to many people in the wider community and the belonging and pride means that it will continue to mean something.

There are (in my experience) a lot of small/medium business men who (given the choice) will employ an ex Scout over a non Scout. What is wrong with encouraging Scouts to wear their Uniform?

Viking
28-09-2007, 12:17 AM
There are (in my experience) a lot of small/medium business men who (given the choice) will employ an ex Scout over a non Scout. What is wrong with encouraging Scouts to wear their Uniform?

Great - are these businessmen (and I guess businesswomen as well, or is it just the males?) employing ex-scouts because they wore a uniform? I wore a uniform at 6th form - does this mean they will be more likely to employ me, than someone who went to a 6th form with no uniform requirement?


Our inspections are not about the minutae of detail - just having the uniform on and roughly right is what we look for.

If inspections are not about minute detail, and just about whether Scouts are wearing uniform roughly, is an inspection needed? Wouldn't a quick scan around the room surfice?


I am proud of the Scout uniform - Scouts still (just) means something to many people in the wider community and the belonging and pride means that it will continue to mean something.

I am proud of being a Scout, not of the Scout uniform. Pride in a uniform is a bit of a false idol.

Take a look at this photo -

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44142000/jpg/_44142173_soldiers1_ap_mandalay203i.jpg

Don't they look like Scouts, at first glance - I thought they were, especially with those neckers. They are in fact soldiers on the streets of Rangoon supressing the Burmese people. I am sure they are proud of their uniform.

One of the reasons that I am proud to be a Scout is because we stand for peace. I get very little pride from wearing a uniform because I am a Scout whether I am in the uniform or out of it.

Akela Nicky
28-09-2007, 09:21 AM
For me - and this is just a personal opinion - being a Scout/er is a state of mind - who I am and what I love to do and be - not how I look. I feel immense pride in being part of such a huge organisation that strives hard to help people and to impart their wisdom of experience on to others. We wear uniform to start our meetings then depending on the actvity - group t shirt etc and dress in full uniform for parades etc. You can still be casually dressed but smart and 'prepared' for your Scouting.
:D

Kaawaterloo
28-09-2007, 11:15 AM
Oh dear, I fear I am going to be unpopular, but still.

On a Pack night, as a Cub Scout Leader, I wear full uniform and make sure that I am immaculatly turned out. Group necker, rolled correctly, shirt ironed, badges all present, not hanging off, upto date. Uniform trousers, ironed, black shoes polished - nothing gets left out. Even my wood beads are present every week and my Kaa badge, and I expect every Leader to take the same amount of pride in their dress.

The reason I do this is because I set an example, a standard for Cubs to follow. I think as Leader it is part of "doing my duty" to be looked upto. I want the Cubs, and the Explorer young leaders to see that the uniform has never been more relevant to Scouting as a Leader. After all, as people have said, if I've not got my uniform on then why should the cubs bother ?

The Cubs know what I expect. Their Cub jumper should be clean and tidy with no badges hanging off, their necker should be rolled, clean and tidy and I expect them to have done it themselves, not their parents. They should have clean hands and a clean hankie in case they sneeze everywhere - simple hygiene that I don't think is asking too much. We usually give hankies as Christmas presents to their is no excuse ! The only thing I say to them is that it's alright to wear school trousers, as they are cheaper and more practical for growing kids, but they must be clean too, obviously !

When we get into our activities we let them take their jumpers off and they can wear a casual T shirt which can be whatever. I even have hangers for them to put their jumpers and neckers on (sounding like a military man here I think!), and if I've planned a night this is gonna be messy, we take uniform intro account. When we go out somewhere it's top half uniform, and the last week before Christmas and Summer it no uniform for everyone - Leaders included.

I help out at Scouts too as we are lacking Leader numbers there, and it's full uniform there too. We have a uniform box with old jumpers and shirts in it that have been donated over the years which we give away to members who simply cannot afford the uniform - Scouting should be for all at the end of the day.

I don't ask for perfection, just pride and effort.....

ianw
28-09-2007, 01:02 PM
Take a look at this photo -

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44142000/jpg/_44142173_soldiers1_ap_mandalay203i.jpg

Don't they look like Scouts, at first glance - I thought they were, especially with those neckers. They are in fact soldiers on the streets of Rangoon supressing the Burmese people. I am sure they are proud of their uniform.


Hmm, the guns and helmets kind of give it away. ;)


Oh dear, I fear I am going to be unpopular, but still.

I don't ask for perfection, just pride and effort.....

We're at polar opposites re uniform (not pride and effort!), but if it works for you, you won't hear me complaining.

Biscit
28-09-2007, 01:39 PM
There's nothing wrong in you personally being well turned out.

Biscit
28-09-2007, 01:42 PM
One of the reasons that I am proud to be a Scout is because we stand for peace. I get very little pride from wearing a uniform because I am a Scout whether I am in the uniform or out of it.

Hmmm... this is the uniform=militaristic line. It's just as false as the smartness=pride line.

jediwannabe
28-09-2007, 01:59 PM
This is what is so awesome about Scouting. We can all have such differing opinions about something as engrained in Scouting tradition as uniform, and yet it's all perfectly acceptable.

Some groups (like my own) insist in uniform being up to a certain standard, and others decide that uniform isn't really a important thing. And yet, both types of groups are prospering (at least here in South Africa), some kids like the uniform side of Scouts, some don't, and there are places for both of them....

jshirra
30-09-2007, 12:37 PM
on a...er....lighter note than the debate that seems to be as hot as the girls in scouting one!!!! Do you always get a necker which is uneven? Mine ALWAYS seem to end up like that and it means that when you roll it it ends up all wrong!!!

and also for you Scottish scouts, do you not find that the kilts are a really expensive investment (last time i looked they where about £600!!!!)

and do you all wear your clan colours or the national colours or do you have a group / district / county...no sorry area (or is is now region?) colours?

oh oh oh!!! my post count is now LEET :) sweeeeet

weefatbob
30-09-2007, 12:49 PM
I believe in uniform very much - I think we are a uniformed organisation and thus should be proud to wear our uniform. I'm afraid I don't think that a polo shirt (whether official or not) is uniform.

My Group, like many in Scotland, is fully kilted - so all leaders, boys etc all wear kilts - which is very smart. We take uniform seriously, so we are all very smart for the start and end of an evening and then get changed into sports clothes for the rest of the night.

I think uniform helps increase general standards - I am a great advocate of school uniform - if you dress for work, you will work. If you dress smartly for Scouting, the kids do take the ceremonies more seriously, and they really feel like they belong to a special movement - not just another polo-shirt-wearing-youth-club.

Said my piece! :o

Bob

Mang
30-09-2007, 04:50 PM
I'm afraid I don't think that a polo shirt (whether official or not) is uniform.
Bob

Glad you raised this, I didn't think it was either TBH!

MikeJ
30-09-2007, 05:04 PM
I'm afraid I don't think that a polo shirt (whether official or not) is uniform.


Glad you raised this, I didn't think it was either TBH!


I could count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times I have worn my polo shirt - I tend to wear proper uniform more :)

Skip Ian
30-09-2007, 09:22 PM
We don't have tshirt or polo shirt yet but are getting them. Ithought they were for non-official use like camp and fundays after ceremonies where you need to keep uniform clean and dry.

My polo / t shirt will not be replacing my uniform under any circumstances. I am very geeky when it comes to uniform.

We took part in mayors parade and civic service today we had two Beavers, one Cub and six Scouts. Not great support from the sections but the fact the uniforms neckers etc were in procession made it look impressive.

The dignataries appreciated it, the congregation all commented with high praise and I felt extremely proud.

We are a small communitty and there was one rainbow, one Brownie and one guide. They wore brownie jumper, guide polo shirt and red rainbow tabard thing?????.

The Scouts (all sections) uniforms out classed the guides etc and the Scouts were as proud of their uniforms as I am of mine. I even had boys boasting how long they polished their shoes.

This shows me we are not dated or un-fashionable.

Biscit
01-10-2007, 09:20 AM
I believe in uniform very much - I think we are a uniformed organisation and thus should be proud to wear our uniform. I'm afraid I don't think that a polo shirt (whether official or not) is uniform.

Well I used to think lots of things that weren't true. I wear my polo in circumstances where the uniform snobs would have their uniforms in suit carriers in their cars.

I really appreciate that people have different standards to what they expect in their units.

I repeat. Pride in your uniform means wearing it and being proud of what it stands for. Please, if you think uniform should be smart, just say so. Do not, I repeat, do not equate pride with smartness, this is an insult to those who believe differently to you.

Yes I believe in uniform as part of belonging.

Biscit
01-10-2007, 09:24 AM
It is interesting to note that the debate seems not to be about whether we do uniform, but how and why.

tomahawk
01-10-2007, 10:25 AM
BPs take:

"Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I'll show you a poorly uniformed leader.”

and

"The uniform makes for brotherhood, since when universally adopted it covers up all differences of class and country."

I do think however that there is a time and place for the full shebang uniform, and a time and place for more casual garb. We all have a group polo shirt for fun days when we are runing bungee running or climbing or other energetic activities that require a certain flexibility in fabric. Ditto in Mid Summer (remember that - its when the rain stops and the sun comes out and you feel hot :P ) if you are dashing here and there throwing water bombs at eachother, a T shirt may be just the job.

I think dogmatic adherance to "uniform must be worn at all times" is what makes us seem stuffy and out of touch - the uniform, while undoubtably smart, is seen as archaic, which is maybe why the dark side (guides and brownies) have gone for a more up to date look.

Biscit
01-10-2007, 12:00 PM
Thing is though, we have updated our uniform to be similar to the sort of stuff you would go walking or camping in. How is that archaic.

I think many people don't understand the design of the current uniform.

tomahawk
01-10-2007, 01:45 PM
I think those of us who are rather "rubenesque" (although Im loving the "festively plump" :D ) find the uniforms rather...unaccomodating. For a woman of size 10, its a fabuous look. For those of use with rather more flesh on the old bones, the uniform is not that comfy.

Smirnoff
01-10-2007, 02:49 PM
I think the uniform is an integral part of being a scout. It tells everyone who we are at a glance. It should be worn with pride and, in my mind, this means being smart too - if you are proud to wear the uniform, why wear an untucked, un-ironed or unbuttoned shirt? The standard shirt/jumper with badges is surely a more formal item and should be worn as such? We tend to insist on smart uniform at the start and end of meetings - whether we change into polo shirts or t-shirts for activities depends on what we are doing. (The trousers are less of an issue as the standard cargo style scout ones are great for most activities :) )

If our group is going out and about we always make sure that we have a 'group identity' whether that means full uniform, or just group polo shirts with group scarf. This is partly so we can identify our scouts easily in busy places, but equally important is a positive public presence. People recognise us as more than a youth club and we are proud of that fact. There are (obviously) many other factors beside uniform that affect this, but I feel that our (smart) uniform is key and is, in itself, something to be proud of.

akela281
01-10-2007, 03:59 PM
iwear my group poloshirt most of the time for pack nights and events.
But investitures parades comps etc i wear uniform.
But it isnt always appropriate to wear skirt, shoes etc when your running football competitions or running pack nights.

jshirra
01-10-2007, 04:08 PM
I thought they were for non-official use like camp and fundays after ceremonies where you need to keep uniform clean and dry.

We are a small communitty and there was one rainbow, one Brownie and one guide. They wore brownie jumper, guide polo shirt and red rainbow tabard thing?????.

The Scouts (all sections) uniforms out classed the guides etc and the Scouts were as proud of their uniforms as I am of mine. I even had boys boasting how long they polished their shoes.

1) yer i think group polos / tee's are unofficial but if you are doing an activity where it simply isn't appropriate to wear uniform then maybe it is better to have some identity than none! in my old group, we had tee's that the cubs would wear under there jumpers...after flag break / grand howl i remember Akela saying to get ready for activities and that meant 30 odd jumpers and neckers going up against the hall wall!!! great 5 minutes that was with everyone trying to get a unique position so that when we went to pick them up we knew which was ours!!

2) i totally agree on the guiding uniform...all those options that just make them look silly! if a whole unit(?) wore the same then it wouldn't be so bad!


Thing is though, we have updated our uniform to be similar to the sort of stuff you would go walking or camping in. How is that archaic.

I think many people don't understand the design of the current uniform.
the main idea i liked about the original uniform was that everything had a function...now the official uniform...only 2(?) items have a duel use..

Biscit
02-10-2007, 09:16 AM
I think the uniform is an integral part of being a scout. It tells everyone who we are at a glance. It should be worn with pride and, in my mind, this means being smart too - if you are proud to wear the uniform, why wear an untucked, un-ironed or unbuttoned shirt? .

Hi, people have politely been requested to express themselves in a way that is not rude or abusive to those who have different ideas to you. It has been explianed that expressing views in that way.

Please show some consideration. Express your own standards but don't say that people who don't believe in your standards lack pride. That is rude and abusive. It breaks Scout laws 3 & 6.

It's fine that you believe in high standards. Your views are fine. It's only way you have expressed them that is bordering on bullying.

Biscit
02-10-2007, 09:26 AM
We don't have tshirt or polo shirt yet but are getting them. I thought they were for non-official use like camp and fundays after ceremonies where you need to keep uniform clean and dry.

Looking at this statement I can't decide whether it's wrong or not. I certainly agree on those rare formal occasions they wouldn't be appropriate, but...

The official polos are actually as much uniform as the shirt & badges. Unless I'm meeting the mayor or something, all my top halves are interchangable and worn with equal pride.

It's a bit like when I returned from my ex-fiancées Queen's scout presentation in London wearing full uniform to visit a Christmas party.
"But we were told activity style trousers weren't allowed on formal occasions!"
Our friends had been told by their rural group in Derbyshire that they had to buy "smart" trousers and it was the activity style ones that were the optional extras.

The geeky side of me is that I cringe when I see the polo or blue sweatshirt with badges on it- that isn't supposed to happen as far as I understand.

Shaun
02-10-2007, 12:36 PM
The geeky side of me is that I cringe when I see the polo or blue sweatshirt with badges on it- that isn't supposed to happen as far as I understand.

You are quite right, but it's not geeky, if you wear uniform, wear it properly.

I have one cub who has badges sewn onto his polo shirt who I have never seen him in a sweatshirt and his brother wears a polo shirt in beavers, I suspect we are a mid-week babysitting service hence the cheapest option for uniform.:rolleyes:

As this YP never attends any activities other than our normal night, I don't get excited about it, this terms battle is trying to make sure everyones badges are in the correct place:smash:

As the YP join I tell the parents the correct uniform so I shall solve the problem in a years time anyway;)

Smirnoff
02-10-2007, 04:25 PM
Hi, people have politely been requested to express themselves in a way that is not rude or abusive to those who have different ideas to you. It has been explianed that expressing views in that way.

Please show some consideration. Express your own standards but don't say that people who don't believe in your standards lack pride. That is rude and abusive. It breaks Scout laws 3 & 6.

It's fine that you believe in high standards. Your views are fine. It's only way you have expressed them that is bordering on bullying.

In no part of my statement have I done anything other than express my views. At no point have I suggested that other people's views are wrong, I have not belittled anyone else's opinions. I have merely stated mine - I clearly say '...It should be worn with pride and, in my mind, this means being smart too..' Further down I also say '...many other factors beside uniform that affect this, but I feel that...' These are my views on uniform and I feel perfectly justified in writing them.

My post does not insist that everyone should have the same viewpoint and I certainly do not think anything I have said can in any way be considered to be 'bordering on bullying.'

You are more than welcome to disagree with my views on uniform. However, please do not assume that just because I have difffering views to yourself on this matter that I must automatically be attacking your opinions or indeed, insisting that they are wrong. To do so is a gross misinterpretation of my comments.

Anyway, I'm off to find a thread I can write a silly comment on.......:banana:

RichmondDESC
02-10-2007, 04:50 PM
Oooh - such a long and heated debate over the rights and wrongs of uniform.

Uniforms gives you a real sense of belonging to something. Whether that be school uniform, scout uniform, the strip of your favourite football team. It gives you a real sense of identity.

I don't work with the younger sections (they tend to cry when you tread on them) but I do know that a lot of the beavers and cubs who go to the group where my explorers are based absolutely love wearing their uniform - they are proud of it - one parent even commented that her beaver wanted to go to bed with his uniform on after he had been invested.

Uniforms are a great social leveller, whether they be school or scout uniform, if everyone wears the same then there is no one-upmanship that is so prevalent in today's society.

We are a uniformed organisation, so the wearing of uniform should be encouraged, whether that be done by military style inspections or a casual "where's your scarf?" I don't personally think it should be about smartness, it should be about personal pride; as mentioned above some people will look scruffy no matter how much time they spend on their appearance (me for example) - but we should all be able to wear our uniforms with pride, shouldn't we? If we are not proud of being part of the scout movement, then why on earth are we?

If we can inspire our members to be proud of wearing their uniforms then I don't think this conversation would be taking place anyway - from a young age our members are happy wearing the uniform, maybe it is us who are giving them the idea that maybe uniform is not such a good idea?

The thing I love about the scout uniform is that it is so readily recognisable. At the WSJ as a day visitor I saw scouts from all over the world, all in different uniforms, but all instantly recognisable as scouts!

As demonstrated in the previous posts, all groups have their own standards about uniform - with some extremes of opinion, yet none are more or less correct than others, they are just different.

Personally I am seen very rarely in full uniform, unless it is an official occasion I will normally wear one of the various scout t-shirts that I have got along with my district scarf. For unit meetings I will wear my unit rugby shirt. I do not see the need to be dressed in full garb all the time, however if other leaders want to do that then that is there choice - it makes them no more or less of a leader, just different.

This thread has got a bit heated - it really shouldn't - we are all on the same side after all!

weefatbob
02-10-2007, 05:10 PM
Hi, people have politely been requested to express themselves in a way that is not rude or abusive to those who have different ideas to you. It has been explianed that expressing views in that way.

Please show some consideration. Express your own standards but don't say that people who don't believe in your standards lack pride. That is rude and abusive. It breaks Scout laws 3 & 6.

It's fine that you believe in high standards. Your views are fine. It's only way you have expressed them that is bordering on bullying.

Woooww! Tempers are fraying about this one... almost as controversial as the letting girls into Scouting thread??!!

Uniform may be a personal choice, but I still maintain that at the end of the day we belong to an organisation which is uniformed by nature and we should put some effort into ensuring that this tradition remains for the future.

I would also point out that all of my Cubs (and Scouts and Explorers for that matter) take great pains to turn out in full uniform and wouldn't dream of wearing a polo shirt or similar to flag break.

Bob

Viking
02-10-2007, 05:37 PM
Hi, people have politely been requested to express themselves in a way that is not rude or abusive to those who have different ideas to you. It has been explianed that expressing views in that way.

Please show some consideration. Express your own standards but don't say that people who don't believe in your standards lack pride. That is rude and abusive. It breaks Scout laws 3 & 6.

It's fine that you believe in high standards. Your views are fine. It's only way you have expressed them that is bordering on bullying.

Biscit - I think you are taking things a little bit too personally, I haven't see anyone attacking you, merely debating which is what we should all be able to do.

I haven't seen anything that says the new uniform can or has been designed be worn unbuttoned, creased, stained and anticked. I think if you are going to wear it, wear it smartly. I personally would rather not wear it at all, although I do on the 'formal occasions' (and I would rather not have 'formal occasions' but thats another argument). I prefer to wear a necker and polo shirt - which is not official uniform. I think the uniform makes us look stuffy and militaristic. Just my pov, and I know that I am in the minority on that one (but hopefully not for ever:tong: )

Raksha
02-10-2007, 09:35 PM
I am one of those people who although I try hard I always end up looking scruffy. This is because 1) I am not the standard shape. 2) I get involved with the Scouts 3) I am usually the one lugging things around at the start of the night.
However, I am extremely proud of my uniform. My Scouts are proud of theirs.
We also wear casual clothes and I am trying to get a common Troop polo shirt across the Troop. If I wear casual clothes on a Troop night or activity they are always Scouty in nature.....

RedSquirrel
02-10-2007, 10:15 PM
[QUOTE=ninthskip;49384]I am one of those people who although I try hard I always end up looking scruffy. This is because 1) I am not the standard shape. 2) I get involved with the Scouts 3) I am usually the one lugging things around at the start of the night.
QUOTE]



so.... me and ninthskip are in he same boat here ( not in reality as that would be a bit messy!!)..

im one of those leaders that has all the uniform but hates wearing the formal bit ( im the wrong shape, the shirt is the wrong shape and together we look stupid) but i go to great lengths and costs to have the right colour polo shirt with the right badges to replace my shirt on meeting night and at camp. i wore my 'dress' uniform at the jamboree with pride as i was one of the least odd looking people!!

i always encourage my beavers ( and now cubs) to be proud of the unifrom and to use it, its better to see a worn out unifrom at he change over from cubs to scouts than no uniform at all.The dutch people i worked with at the jamboree were amazed at our uniform rules as they play, camp, hike or paint in thiers, the scruffier the better apparently!

Biscit
03-10-2007, 09:43 AM
Biscit - I think you are taking things a little bit too personally, I haven't see anyone attacking you, merely debating which is what we should all be able to do.


Viking.

I have been kind enough to take the effort to clearly explain how and why what was said constitutes an attack. I have clearly and precicely explained how and why the behaviour was wrong. I am not asking for an apology, I am just asking people to take on board the fact they have bevahed badly, the fact that what is said is offensive, even if before I explained it was not understood to be offensive.

jediwannabe
03-10-2007, 10:24 AM
Viking.

I have been kind enough to take the effort to clearly explain how and why what was said constitutes an attack. I have clearly and precicely explained how and why the behaviour was wrong. I am not asking for an apology, I am just asking people to take on board the fact they have bevahed badly, the fact that what is said is offensive, even if before I explained it was not understood to be offensive.

I'm a bit confused, what did you find offensive and why was it offensive?

weefatbob
03-10-2007, 10:45 AM
Viking.

I have been kind enough to take the effort to clearly explain how and why what was said constitutes an attack. I have clearly and precicely explained how and why the behaviour was wrong. I am not asking for an apology, I am just asking people to take on board the fact they have bevahed badly, the fact that what is said is offensive, even if before I explained it was not understood to be offensive.

Sorry to put my foot in it, but I didn't find anything he said offensive to you or to anybody else. Lighten up a bit!

Biscit
03-10-2007, 12:14 PM
Sorry to put my foot in it, but I didn't find anything he said offensive to you or to anybody else. Lighten up a bit!

When someone takes the trouble to explain why something you didn't know
was offensive is offensive it is polite to take that fact on board, learn from
it and move on.

I'm actually more upset by peoples failure to take on board the fact
people behaved badly, than the actual comment.

I have explained what the offensive item was and how it was offensive.
The fact you didn't know it was offensive isn't relevant, now you do,
you should.

Look I'm not asking for grovelling apologies, I'm just asking people
to have the good manners to learn from their mistakes.

jediwannabe
03-10-2007, 12:52 PM
When someone takes the trouble to explain why something you didn't know
was offensive is offensive it is polite to take that fact on board, learn from
it and move on.

I'm actually more upset by peoples failure to take on board the fact
people behaved badly, than the actual comment.

I have explained what the offensive item was and how it was offensive.
The fact you didn't know it was offensive isn't relevant, now you do,
you should.

Look I'm not asking for grovelling apologies, I'm just asking people
to have the good manners to learn from their mistakes.

But, you never explained why it's offensive. You said that what Smirnoff said breaks Scout Laws 3 and 6. Which is really confusing to me, because law 3 is "A Scout's duty is to be useful and to help others." and law 6 is "A Scout is a friend to animals", how do those tie into what Smirnoff said.

What Smirnoff said is 100% true. You say that smartness does not equal pride, which is correct, because you can wear your uniform smartly, but not be proud of it. However, if you are proud of your uniform, why would you not wear it smartly? Smartness <> Pride but Pride = Smartness!

JeanieJ
03-10-2007, 01:05 PM
My uniform smells of woodsmoke and I can't get the cuffs clean any more. Does this make me a bad person?
I was thinking of having a 'best' uniform for church parades.
Does this make me a bit weird?
I've bought a polo shirt - but it doesn't really feel like 'uniform' to me.
Does my bum look big in this?
My AESL and I did our shopping for camp in our polo's and neckers on Friday and didn't even realise we'd still got them on until after we left Tesco's.
Do you think we're a bit obsessed with Scouting?

But who cares. Scout and Proud. And that means clean and smart in my book - and having been a GGUK member for 9 years I can sew my badges on without the stitching being visible too! Do they still have navy knickers do we know?

jediwannabe
03-10-2007, 01:10 PM
My uniform smells of woodsmoke and I can't get the cuffs clean any more. That just makes you a true scout :bigsmiley

garyp1984
03-10-2007, 01:51 PM
It has to be unifor, its smart and presentable.

As a scottish group we were kilts with the top half of the uniform. On troop nights the kids arrive in uniform, have the opening ceremony, uniform inspection then change into activity gear. They then have uniform on for the end of the night, closing ceremony.

Also the kids were uniform for any camps and day trips away. They must have thier uniform on for arriving and leaving camp.

JeanieJ
03-10-2007, 01:56 PM
That just makes you a true scout :bigsmiley

Thank you! That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me today!! :bigsmiley

Richard
03-10-2007, 02:07 PM
When someone takes the trouble to explain why something you didn't know
was offensive is offensive it is polite to take that fact on board, learn from
it and move on.

I'm actually more upset by peoples failure to take on board the fact
people behaved badly, than the actual comment.

I have explained what the offensive item was and how it was offensive.
The fact you didn't know it was offensive isn't relevant, now you do,
you should.

Look I'm not asking for grovelling apologies, I'm just asking people
to have the good manners to learn from their mistakes.


Biscit

I have now read the specific element of the thread 4 times, and I fail to see what Smirnoff has said, that would offend you, other than give his view.

He's given a view, people either agree or disagree with it and if they want to post a view the can on this thread.

This is a discussion forum of views and advice.

Knotso
03-10-2007, 02:28 PM
I used to encourage (if not insist) that uniform is worn for all Scouting activities - and coats must be worn if wet.

Until, that is, it was pointed out to me that this Group policy was the main reason why our Cubs and Scouts always came last in the District swimming gala.

Coats are now optional.

_________________
Knotso - sensible

Chug
03-10-2007, 03:58 PM
I used to encourage (if not insist) that uniform is worn for all Scouting activities - and coats must be worn if wet.

Until, that is, it was pointed out to me that this Group policy was the main reason why our Cubs and Scouts always came last in the District swimming gala.

Coats are now optional.

_________________
Knotso - sensible

:rolleyes:

jediwannabe
03-10-2007, 07:07 PM
Thank you! That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me today!! :bigsmiley

:bigsmiley Pleasure. My uniform also smells like smoke most of the time, so your not the only one

Mang
03-10-2007, 08:09 PM
Tagged on the question about polo shirts to an info centre email I've just had a reply to.

The beige polo shirts for adults are optional items for activity dress, the shirts and blouses are the official uniform items. Whether you wear the polo shirts at Scouting events/meetings is a local decision.

Skip Ian
04-10-2007, 12:01 PM
Tagged on the question about polo shirts to an info centre email I've just had a reply to.

The beige polo shirts for adults are optional items for activity dress, the shirts and blouses are the official uniform items. Whether you wear the polo shirts at Scouting events/meetings is a local decision.

Ta very much.

Biscit
05-10-2007, 02:11 PM
Ah, thanks, confirms that for me, great.

Kinder 2HG
05-10-2007, 03:13 PM
I wear either the group t-shirt or beige uniform t-shirt with necker & blue trousers most weeks for meetings and shirt & skirt for church parade.

zzbuckley
06-10-2007, 05:59 PM
Tagged on the question about polo shirts to an info centre email I've just had a reply to.

The beige polo shirts for adults are optional items for activity dress, the shirts and blouses are the official uniform items. Whether you wear the polo shirts at Scouting events/meetings is a local decision.

All the sections of my group all wear polo shirts with badges as uniform.........

tomahawk
06-10-2007, 07:15 PM
i think pride in the uniform is secondary to pride in what we actually do. I personally would rather have a gifted, enthusiastic polo-shirt wearing leader whom the YPs respect and trust , than a stuffed shirt in a shirt.

shiftypete
06-10-2007, 10:03 PM
I m sure we all would but wearing a shirt doesn't make you a stuffed shirt

jshirra
06-10-2007, 10:22 PM
i personally feel that at the end of the day, we ARE a uniformed organisation BUT...you can bang on at YP and adults alike about uniform, all you will end up with is YP seeing it too much like school and adults being insulted (in extreme circumstances). how or what uniform you wear is not important to me, it is more important that it is on and you can be identified as a scout with it. there are situations where one way is better than another but we all know those...when you are not doing a formal event then an untucked shirt or a top button undone is not going to kill anyone or cause any problems....but may just make people see you as relaxed scouts enjoying yourselves (not that having perfect uniform stops you enjoying yourself!)

I think at the end of the day it is personal choice and ultimately the personal choice of the section leader. they will say what they expect of their sections YP and then the ASLs should follow. If they decide that uniform is not needed weekly, then adults may be the same. else, if uniform must be smartly worn for the whole meeting then that applies.

Mountainboy
07-10-2007, 11:01 PM
Wearing full uniform for the couple of hours a week it takes should not be a big ask for us really. We ARE a uniformed organisation and we would lose much if we strayed too far from that dictum.

On camp I wear uniform for the journey and any formal ceremony, other than that it IS hung up - I wear a spare necker for the entire time though, tied in a friendship knot. I use it for all the things it was originally intended for so its a bit of a rag!

Having said I wear the uniform I actually wear Craghoppers trousers & shirt, they are almost indistinguishable from the official items and far superior.

As for the kids I would never turn someone away for not having uniform, but what they have should be worn with respect. I did my scouting on a Manchester council estate so I understand the pressures on the YP but they can hide it as much as they want before and after the meeting. Never been too excited about getting them to wear uniform trousers - rubbish quality & seriously geeky.

I don't think this is a decision for groups or sections though, if you don't want to be in a uniformed organisation start a youth club!

oldcub42
08-10-2007, 12:37 PM
I wear my Uniform at nearly every meeting. We are a uniformed movement and the uniform distinguishes us from the vast amount of youth clubs out there. the uniform also gives us very good visability in public. The Chief scout should be setting an example by wearing uniform more as it people like peter that advertise the movement in the major media of the day. If we want to get rid of the uniform then all we would become is another youth club.

Biscit
08-10-2007, 01:38 PM
I wear uniform at every meeting too. At least as far as I'm concerned I do.

weefatbob
11-10-2007, 07:23 AM
It is interesting though that when the new uniform came out, polo shirts were not supposed to replace uniform shirts - they were an optional extra. The shirt was still supposed to be worn on all occasions.

(see PDF on Scouting uniform launch) (http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/hq/uniform/p2.pdf)

I know this as I was on one of the Committee of the Council sub-committees at the time.

Furthermore, I can say with 100% certainty that polo shirts were not supposed to have badges on them - in fact this should be actively discouraged at every opportunity.

Having said that, I don't see any excuse for not wearing a smart shirt - even the short sleeved shirt, which is thinner material too, is smart but still quite casual.

After all, the worst thing, in my opinion, would be if we went down the Guide route with regard to uniform - twenty different options and no cohesion! Its hard to tell a Guide from a pass by these days!!

Bob

Mang
12-10-2007, 03:42 AM
It is interesting though that when the new uniform came out, polo shirts were not supposed to replace uniform shirts - they were an optional extra. The shirt was still supposed to be worn on all occasions.

Furthermore, I can say with 100% certainty that polo shirts were not supposed to have badges on them - in fact this should be actively discouraged at every opportunity.

Having said that, I don't see any excuse for not wearing a smart shirt - even the short sleeved shirt, which is thinner material too, is smart but still quite casual.

After all, the worst thing, in my opinion, would be if we went down the Guide route with regard to uniform - twenty different options and no cohesion! Its hard to tell a Guide from a pass by these days!!

Bob

This just about sums up my thoughts on the subject As someone who went into the new uniform I look back at the old adult uniform (no polo shirts then were there?) and think 'Thank the stars I don't have to wear those trousers'. The colour combination looks like a Chestnut mushroom!

Akela Ben
12-10-2007, 07:55 AM
This just about sums up my thoughts on the subject As someone who went into the new uniform I look back at the old adult uniform (no polo shirts then were there?) and think 'Thank the stars I don't have to wear those trousers'. The colour combination looks like a Chestnut mushroom!

I remember those trousers, lol, blimey they were awful. It was like wearing a pair of your grandad's stiff old trousers from the attic. But I think the uniform for women back then was even worse.

Biscit
12-10-2007, 09:59 AM
I came in when there was the posibility of Uniform Chinos instead of the old slacks. They weren't bad- there was certainly nothing wrong with the actual colour- beige is nice and neutral.

jshirra
13-10-2007, 06:14 PM
The colour combination looks like a Chestnut mushroom!thats a very waitrose comment there Austin ;)


I remember those trousers, lol, blimey they were awful. It was like wearing a pair of your grandad's stiff old trousers from the attic.erm....how would you know what that was like ?!?!?!?! :confused::tong:

Scattymare
13-10-2007, 11:00 PM
I have a cruddy life at the moment...........this friday, for example, i allowed myself an hour before beavers to get ready, travel, feed kids etc etc etc........... so many ppl demanded my attention I had to go in the clothes i'd been in all day. I stank (I do a manual job!) but i turned up, focussed on the job in hand and did what i had to before going home at 9ish after scouts too.

unfortunately, and contrarily to popular belief, I run myself ragged during the das, and get wound up by kids (my own) in the evening. The priority to me is attending be it in or not in uniform. Yes I am proud of my uniform, but I am unable to locate it quick enough at times.
Scatty

zzbuckley
15-10-2007, 06:01 PM
It is interesting though that when the new uniform came out, polo shirts were not supposed to replace uniform shirts - they were an optional extra. The shirt was still supposed to be worn on all occasions.

(see PDF on Scouting uniform launch) (http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/hq/uniform/p2.pdf)

I know this as I was on one of the Committee of the Council sub-committees at the time.

Furthermore, I can say with 100% certainty that polo shirts were not supposed to have badges on them - in fact this should be actively discouraged at every opportunity.

Bob

Well we asked HQ at the launch time and we assured we could wear badges on the polos. Just to show we are real rebels we wear the baseball cap as well !

Click here to see Cheshire finest !

http://www.hcsg.org.uk/st_george_s_day_parade_2007.html

MikeJ
15-10-2007, 06:03 PM
Well we asked HQ at the launch time and we assured we could wear badges on the polos. Just to show we are real rebels we wear the baseball cap as well !

Click here to see Cheshire finest !

http://www.hcsg.org.uk/st_george_s_day_parade_2007.html

So do absolutely all of you wear baseball caps then?

zzbuckley
15-10-2007, 06:19 PM
The Beavers, Cubs and Scouts and their leaders do. Explorers are a District Unit and we don't.

MikeJ
15-10-2007, 06:52 PM
The Beavers, Cubs and Scouts and their leaders do. Explorers are a District Unit and we don't.


Do members get a choice to not wear one?

zzbuckley
15-10-2007, 08:56 PM
No, Mike. Its uniform and they wear one.....

Webbie
31-10-2007, 11:14 AM
Do members get a choice to not wear one?

dont want to wear the uniform you now where the door is
bu-bye
bu-bye
dont let the door hit u

Biscit
31-10-2007, 11:39 AM
dont want to wear the uniform you now where the door is
bu-bye
bu-bye
dont let the door hit u

Do you think you've been obnoxious enough there?

I could say that opinions being expressed in that manner are less welcome in scouting (in my book) than people who are a bit slack with uniform.

I think it's a valid opinion, while not one I necessarily agree with that we joined a uniform organisation so shouldn't have a problem with wearing a uniform to some standard.

But expressing it as childish taunting like that is not on.

jediwannabe
31-10-2007, 11:50 AM
dont want to wear the uniform you now where the door is
bu-bye
bu-bye
dont let the door hit u

Thats a bit harsh.

I agree with Biscuit, you don't have to act childish in order to express your opinion.

I believe that we should wear a uniform, but I don't throw people out of my troop because they don't, thats the quickest way to close down a troop.

Webbie
01-11-2007, 12:33 AM
agree its childish, but as use have said its a uniformed organisation and all members should wear the uniform, and war it proud and proper.

jedi, there are way of making people wear uniform, for example we have a troop where all members where full activity uniform as it gives them a better chance of going trips etc as we need out unit to look good to the public eye

[rant]

unless of course your peter duncan, and you dont have a woggle and think mhmm al get some-one else to tie a friendship knot in my kneckie and what the heck leave the buttons open.

[rant over]

(ps things usually sound better in my head than on forums)

jediwannabe
01-11-2007, 06:25 AM
....jedi, there are way of making people wear uniform, for example we have a troop where all members where full activity uniform as it gives them a better chance of going trips etc as we need out unit to look good to the public eye....

I know there are ways of making people wear uniform. The vast majority of my troop always wear uniforms, but unlike what you said, we don't throw them out if they don't.

Debra Berry
01-11-2007, 09:51 AM
We where full uniform, but allow them to take of shirts after flag break and have just T-shirt and activaty trousers on, mind u saying that we also have done hawaiian night and halloween where we did not have unifrms on but all got dressed up for this. Yes even the male leaders, and my god they go for it on even had coconuts over his t-shirt very funny. And ladies I've been shopping in mine stright from 1 troup night and got very good service from 3 guys falling over themselves.

jelly
02-11-2007, 01:47 PM
As venture Scouts we used to only wear uniform for important occasions.

We didn't turn up every week in uniform - but church parades and formal events (including the final meal on expeditions) was always a uniform occasion.

MikeJ
05-11-2007, 01:15 PM
No, Mike. Its uniform and they wear one.....


dont want to wear the uniform you now where the door is
bu-bye
bu-bye
dont let the door hit u

Did you read the other post before this one? I was commenting on the fact that a baseball cap is part of accepted uniform for some groups, rather than the concept of wearing uniform (I don't have a problem wearing uniform) - maybe its just me being old fashioned.

shiftypete
05-11-2007, 05:08 PM
Baseball caps are an optional extra not a compulsory part of the uniform. Although I suppose a Group can decide to require its members to wear one.

If we took the attitude that all items of Uniform had to be worn then we'd be wearing activity shorts, activity trousers, smart trousers, polo shirts, uniform tops, neckers and caps which seem a bit excessive to me :tong:

freeminer
14-11-2007, 08:43 PM
I was about to start a new thread but ill tag onto this one. Isnt it time to bring back the hat? Just a thought as I was getting soaked at rememberance parade....

Mang
14-11-2007, 09:21 PM
I was about to start a new thread but ill tag onto this one. Isnt it time to bring back the hat? Just a thought as I was getting soaked at rememberance parade....

Personally I wouldn't mind if it was optional (considered one for Crimbo actually) but I remember a Dutch Scouter who was interviewed by the Beeb at the Jamboree saying that a SA media bod tried to make her remove her lemon squeezer hat before going on TV...I guess that says loads about the hats'** chances.


**Definately NO berets!

wolfie
14-11-2007, 10:11 PM
I was about to start a new thread but ill tag onto this one. Isnt it time to bring back the hat? Just a thought as I was getting soaked at rememberance parade....


The trouble then is it's one more thing for them to loose or wear incorrectly just to bug us:)

snowdrop
14-11-2007, 10:32 PM
.....

**Definately NO berets!

Everyone to their own but we quite like our berets. As long as the right size and worn correctly it's quite possible for them to look smart. Just take a look at the recent remembrance day parade.

shiftypete
14-11-2007, 11:04 PM
The problem with a hat as an optional extra is that then you lose the point of a uniform which is to make us look well umm uniform. if one or two Scouts are wearing hats and no one else is it would just look odd.

Mang
15-11-2007, 04:56 AM
Everyone to their own but we quite like our berets. As long as the right size and worn correctly it's quite possible for them to look smart. Just take a look at the recent remembrance day parade.

Quite right, it's just my feelings towards it. I associate the beret with you guys and the cadets that marched in our Remeberance Sunday parade looked very good too (and marched properly curse them!:D )


The problem with a hat as an optional extra is that then you lose the point of a uniform which is to make us look well umm uniform. if one or two Scouts are wearing hats and no one else is it would just look odd.

As we've mentioned the Remeberance Day this may be a good point to what you've said, not sure about at the HQ but I guess it wouldn't be worn during activities anyway.

I'm one of the starry Centenary scarves' only fans but I'll be glad to see the back of them because some did and some didn't on Sunday.

fmolesey
15-11-2007, 10:32 AM
Surely thats what Scoutings about. Wearing your uniform with pride and getting badges?