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tom_
28-11-2008, 10:24 PM
Just been on scouts.org.uk and the new Scouting Magazine is up! What does everyone think about it? Personally I think it looks fantastic but then I'm bias ;)

Tom

Pedge
29-11-2008, 12:34 AM
I'll tell you when my paper copy arrives, i hate reading stuff like that online

Chris Neal 2008
29-11-2008, 02:38 AM
Just been on scouts.org.uk and the new Scouting Magazine is up! What does everyone think about it? Personally I think it looks fantastic but then I'm bias ;)

Tom

Bias Tom, How come?
lol

Dramatist
29-11-2008, 08:57 AM
I glanced at it online (if you can 'glance' at something that takes that long to download) and it looks fine but like Pedge, I find trying to read something like that on a screen almost impossible so I'll reserve comment on the content until the postman brings me my copy and I can spend a happy bedtime reading it! :thup:

fmolesey
29-11-2008, 10:09 AM
Sea Scouts in the magazine! :D Page 14. Why are they wearing woggles????

Chug
29-11-2008, 10:56 AM
Sea Scouts in the magazine! :D Page 14. Why are they wearing woggles????

Only one of the Sea Scout troops in our district knots their necker. We've got Puddle's the Duck.


http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff118/Gary290370/Gilwell5.jpg

fmolesey
29-11-2008, 11:47 AM
We knot our necker.

AdrianP
29-11-2008, 12:07 PM
Mine's arrived this morning in the post. At a glance (and it was only a glance) the content doesn't look much different to a normal magazine so it'll go on the pile and I'll read it in turn with everything else I've got to read.

One question though - on the page showing the 9 young people who edited the magazine, how come the 12 year old is listed as coming from a cub pack?

big chris
29-11-2008, 12:57 PM
no "last laugh"

not impressed... it's the only thing guaranteed worth reading each issue

zzbuckley
29-11-2008, 01:15 PM
You miserable lot ! :-)))))))))

Its great to see youth members producing our august organ (to coin a phrase !) Yes I noticed the Cub typo but I thought it was great. Well done team.

big chris
29-11-2008, 01:25 PM
it looks v suitable for 12-16 yr olds...

lots of colours, lots of changes in fonts... all at whacky angles...

the problem (and it's not just this issue) we're busy grown ups who want to flick through, scan the articles that don't interest and read the articles that do... it is rarely read by da kidz

this is just a bit messier than usual... i will have to concentrate and make a concerted effort to read this... just in case they've announced something important... (v possible with the new POR being published) and to work out what i need to read and what i should point out to other leaders in the group...

so, yes... i'm a misery... i know that the only way it will affect my scouting is if i see something cool in it to do with my kids... it should be easy to find the cool stuff... not hidden away behind a graphic designer's efforts at cool, hip and trendy... so, if you want the simple answer...

i didn't really read the stuff by the youth members because it was too much effort... i'll look again later but i read the Times instead... much easier to get through over a coffee and everything always in the same place and neatly laid out...

alanghorn
29-11-2008, 01:33 PM
Woah, hold on!
Does every YP get a copy of this? Or do you have to request it, or what?!

LeafyLion
29-11-2008, 01:45 PM
Woah, hold on!
Does every YP get a copy of this? Or do you have to request it, or what?!

As far as I know its only sent to leaders, district and county and so on. None of our YP's have ever had it. In fact when they read my copy once, they thought it was dull and boring.

When you've read the brilliant Scouting mags from the 90's and all the info that was in there, today's version in my opinion only is very poor. I flick through it but rarely read anything. Very little of it is relevant to me, there you go I've finished being grumpy now.

alanghorn
29-11-2008, 02:05 PM
The odd copy that I have managed to pick up from the depth of the County archives has been dull and boring, but as a YSP, it's sort of in my job description to keep up with the national news and views. I've emailed the Info Centre asking them to put me on the list, and - hopefully - they'll agree!

big chris
29-11-2008, 02:20 PM
Woah, hold on!
Does every YP get a copy of this? Or do you have to request it, or what?!
that's the daftness... it is a whizz bang super modern jazzy magazine with wild fonts and clashing colours... but the readership is almost entirely leaders...

it rather misses the point...

Mang
29-11-2008, 02:22 PM
that's the daftness... it is a whizz bang super modern jazzy magazine with wild fonts and clashing colours... but the readership is almost entirely leaders...

it rather misses the point...

Actually, this is a good point!

Raksha
29-11-2008, 05:32 PM
I have now sat and read this through.
It was nice to put faces to names. I am sure you found the experience interesting and very hard work.
I found the layout distracting. When writing you should think of who you are writing for and the audience you want to get your message across to, I suspect that the initial pages will put some Adults off.
I think that in all honesty I found it told me nothing that I was not already aware of when it came to the pressures on teenagers (in particular) in current times. This knowledge coming from having a 16yro and a 18 yro. For those without teenagers it may have some use.
I found the colours used hard to read.
I missed the last laugh cartoons, it is normally what I turn to first, then I go to the letters! and if I am being really honest I found the suggestion that I share my bag of chips with the early birds more than a little patronising. I don't normally get to eat on a Troop night - I just don't have time, if I am really lucky I may get a cup of tea half way through the night. I suspect if we did a poll on here I would not be the only one who didn't eat on their section night.
Many of the suggestions for activities with my Section would be hard to do with 50+ Scouts, for example taking 14 PL's and APL's to a local coffee shop to listen to what they wanted to say would not be practical in terms of seating let alone the Troop budget. I do run Troop forums and also ask for activity ideas - many suggested have been done, some have not. Badges - asking the Troop which ones they want to do? Not always practical, we do expect Scouts to do some badge work themselves. The last thing I asked my PL's about they completed suprised me by wanting to retain a Tradition of the Troop that we (the Leaders) thought they would want to change after some younger members had expressed a wish to change.
I foudn the balance between the articles that you as YS had written and those written by adults quite jarring.

I agree that the Scouting magazine is not read by YP (mine were not interested when I took some down for them).

It was nice to see Sea Scouts in there (we wear woggles too), why no Air Scouts?
There should be a bi-monthly issue purely by the YS for the YP.
I think I would round this ramble up by saying well done, but can I have my magazine back please?

fmolesey
29-11-2008, 05:41 PM
If I had the chance to recieve these for free I would read them. As for the Graphic Design, I like it. TSA need to get more YP reading these magazines.

big chris
29-11-2008, 05:56 PM
. TSA need to get more YP reading these magazines.

why?

to tell me that other troops are doing thousands of pounds worth of activities and why can't they? (answer? they can... but it's staggered over 8 yrs of scouts and explorers)

to tell me about trips around the world that other groups seem to do every month? (they get one international every 4 years and i suspect the parents prefer that!)

to tell me about new rules and regulations that have been introduced (they won't read that!)

to point out all the incredible badgework that is available to them and i should be doing? (get stuffed! they get shedloads of cool stuff and should all leave with CSG if they just turn up to most of it)

sorry... giving to scouting magazine to kids is unfair... i sift the info that i want to give my scouts based on practicalities of time, money and ability... if the scouts wanted to publish a simple downloadable pdf that i could photocopy and give out once/month to my kids then i might think about that (simple text, no huge blocks of colour... wise words from ray mears, richard hammond, etc. some backwoods recipes, some kayaking tips... that sort of thing... that would be perfect... but scouting magazine... that is not for kids and this seems to have missed that entirely!)

so... here's an idea...

take those newfound editors and let them produce 2 sides of A4... church newsletter style... make it simple and scouty... don't promise kids kandersteg. iceland and japan... offer them some winter camping tips, firelighting ideas... have some leadership tips for PLS...

publish it online and include it in scouting plus... i'll photocopy it and hand it out the following week... i reckon that we all would... that would be brilliant.

richardnhunt
29-11-2008, 06:00 PM
good idea - that would be great. Completely agree that Scouting magazine is a bit lost at times

Viking
29-11-2008, 06:19 PM
I liked the issue. It was a bit different, it was a one off, it questioned some of the more 'traditional' aspects, and suggested atractive alternatives for the 21st centuary. You may have learnt nothing new from it - maybe you are already an enlightened leader.

I agree though - Scouting Magazine isn't, has never been and should never be for Young People. Its raison d'être is as a resource for adults.

I don't though agree that Scouting Magazine should ignore the troops that go to Kandersteg, Japan etc to focus on the ordinary. It should have a mixture of the inspirational, to the useful tips thats can be put in place at the weekly meeting.

big chris
29-11-2008, 06:28 PM
I don't though agree that Scouting Magazine should ignore the troops that go to Kandersteg, Japan etc to focus on the ordinary. It should have a mixture of the inspirational, to the useful tips thats can be put in place at the weekly meeting.

nope... don't ignore them, they can be an inspiration to leaders... but if you start giving it to kids...( kids who for next three months will be going to a dusty scout hall each week... with poss one winter camp at local site and maybe a trip to a pool or quasar... (with excellent leaders laying on cool stuff for almost no cost each week)) those kids will start wonderng where their ski trips are, their visits from the great and the good, the visits to football grounds, the incredible winter camps etc etc...

scouting mag portrays an often utopian version of scouting... fine for us as adults but i'm not sure i want my scouts to start wondering why they are doing pasta pioneering and not planning their ski trip!?

Pedge
29-11-2008, 07:11 PM
Not trying to sound overly negative, but personally I can't tell much difference between this and a 'normal' issue of Scouting. LOTS of adverts for things which most leaders imho would only ever need to order once, a few articles which try to impart new information which i've already picked up from escouts and other sources, a well deserved pat on the back for some people who have gained an award (providing they were able to get to London Zoo for the presentation), a few more adverts and then finally the wonderful JAD quiz.
I don't know about anyone else (though from some of the comments in this thread) the magazine is largely irrelavant in the way I 'do' scouts and i think the people who make it should reconsider what exactly it's supposed to be for.
As for the supplement, I don't think I've ever used any ideas from it, they always seem as if they just wouldn't work with my lot, maybe it's different for other sections.

astwood7
29-11-2008, 07:23 PM
Have to agree with those who are in essence saying - well done the youth editors, but not really a magazine for leaders. To me this is a PR magazine but why send to leaders who know that we are all doing a good job and providing good scouting experiences for the YP. Bring back the magazine as it was in the late 90's with loads of real ideas and tips and pioneering projects.

Not only that but this issue for me they have included the Network supplement instead of the Scout one. Whilst I am flattered that they think I am under 26 (I wish) it is not very helpful :smash:

Raksha
29-11-2008, 07:41 PM
Not only that but this issue for me they have included the Network supplement instead of the Scout one. Whilst I am flattered that they think I am under 26 (I wish) it is not very helpful :smash:

You are only 21 Fiona! and you aren't missing much in the Scout supplement. The only bit that is new to me is the Scout handbook they are bringing out - looks OK - hope its cheap!

Chris Lambert
29-11-2008, 07:53 PM
The only bit that is new to me is the Scout handbook they are bringing out - looks OK - hope its cheap!

It looked interesting, but the article gave very little info about the content. And if the example page is anything to go by it may not be very useful - not all troops use patrol tents - in fact from what I've seen the majority of troops don't use patrol tents. There's little point publishing instructions for pitching "a tent" when all tents are different.

big chris
29-11-2008, 08:09 PM
It looked interesting, but the article gave very little info about the content. And if the example page is anything to go by it may not be very useful - not all troops use patrol tents - in fact from what I've seen the majority of troops don't use patrol tents. There's little point publishing instructions for pitching "a tent" when all tents are different.

my thoughts exactly!

we have: 12 man army tents, 3 and 8 man vango tunnels, 6-8 man columbia domes, 2 man vaudes, tarps, hammocks and all sorts... we don't have any patrol tents...

would it have beenb too much to put a price in the article? I feel like i'm reading pravda sometimes... they'll only tell us what they want us to know.... the price is pretty crucial to the whole thing...

and by the way... i'm generally a fan of scouting... i just wish it was easier to read and had chunkier articles... onlly 25% of it will ever be of interest to one person but it's a shame the bits i want to read are not a bit bigger and in depth... i'll not read an article on gang shows, be it one page or 4 pages so it might as well be 4 pages for those who are interested... (actually... i'm more likely to read the 4 page one as i might learn something... a page of bullet points is no good for anybody!)... but this is a part of today's cuture... be it tv news or magazines... there is a fear of going in depth as it would put us off... ewan bushfella has written about the length of articles shortening before (in general, not in scouting) it's sad... i like learning new things.

salley
29-11-2008, 08:15 PM
I liked it. (did miss last laugh though!). I agree that it did read a bit like a PR mag but maybe that is no bad thing - we don't often boast about what we do and achieve and we should do. It did fall into the trap that the adult edited editions do of not having indepth practical articles but them maybe as the comments on tents show that isn't really possible.

Well done to all involved

astwood7
29-11-2008, 09:25 PM
You are only 21 Fiona! Thanks Hilary - it must be scouting keeping me young (if it wasn't for the grey hairs!)

Raksha
29-11-2008, 10:14 PM
I heard a song lyric that said, grey is the new blonde! I'll take that anyday!
I also agree with the tents comment. We have a wide variety.

tomahawk
29-11-2008, 10:48 PM
one of my beavers is on page 28 :cool:

Richard
30-11-2008, 12:19 AM
I think that there are a number of problems with Scouting Magazine and they are not to do with this issue specifically, just the concept in general.

You post out 100000?? full colour magazines to adults in Scouting, it isnt going to be focused, and isnt going to suit the many and varied needs of the readership. So people tend to flick through and read the bits we are interested in.

That said all the young people have made a fantastic job at doing this and its important in a Young Persons movement the us old foggies, get where they are coming from. I was particularily encouraged to see that issues, that have been hotly debated here, were tackled from a YP perspective.

Well done, BTW I'm available for an interview about Escouts in your next issue ;)

tom_
30-11-2008, 07:45 AM
Thanks for the feedback so far guys it's been quite an interesting read in this topic! It's funny how everyone brings up the Last Laugh as we knew that was probably the one thing that might be slightly controversial back when we planned the issue in August.

I'm glad most of you enjoyed it, we had a great time making it but as Chris, Becky and Alec (I Don't know about the others) post on here I'm sure they will post at some point. It was quite an interesting process to be involved in and hopefully the articles we decided to write were quite an interesting read...

Thank You!

Tom

Leaderofthepack
30-11-2008, 09:59 AM
Bring back 'The Last Laugh'.

"
It's funny how everyone brings up the Last Laugh as we knew that was probably the one thing that might be slightly controversial back when we planned the issue in August."

No - it isn't funny how everyone brings it up - it shows what a popular feature it is, and shows how you haven't though about your reader - the leaders. An apology would be better than a flippant comment!

Dramatist
30-11-2008, 11:14 AM
Well, I read it in bed last night. I quite deliberately have not read what others have said so far in this thread as I know that some of the YP involed in the mag read :escouts: and I want to be fair to them and not have my opinion swayed by others......

Firstly, a huge 'well done' to all involved for all the hard work and dedication which has quite obviously gone into this project. I am truly impressed!

Now, to brass tacks:

As ever I started in the obvious place - the back page - to look at the last laugh, which I use as the first (and often the only) laugh. Instead of starting with a smile, I was set off with a daft suggestion to share my chips! What chips? I don't have time usually even to grab a mars bar before Scouts, let alone travel ten miles to the nearest take-away food shop!

Somewhat miffed, I went back to the beginning of the magazine. It soon became clear that it was designed as a sort of 'Teenage Angst Mag,' very well executed and put together if that is the target audience - sadly, it is not. Since Scouting Magazine is not publically available and since it is not widely read by YP then I am forced to conclude that it misses its target which, no fault of the young editors, is Adults in Scouting.

Since, at the moment, the audience is mainly Adult leaders, the layout should be easy for them to feel comfortable with. This, sadly is not the case.I don't want to get to page ten and have to turn the wretched thing on its side to look at self-glorifying photos and 'Aren't We Clever, Mum?' captions.

The whole thing is very short on hard useful information for leaders. Most of it is YPs views and we hear those week in week out from our Scouts - and they are exactly the same as those given here!

I enjoyed the few 'solid' pieces I could lie back and read, such as the piece on Llangollan Scout Group but many of the pieces seemed as if they were designed either for Goldfish to read (they only have a 4 second memory, you know) or for total illiterates who only ever look at pictures and never read the words!

When I was a young earnest writer, age 20, I proudly showed the script of my very first gritty, Northern, hard-hitting play to a well known writer. He took it away, read it and sent me a telegram. "Totally humourless. send it again when you have 'gagged it up'!" I was crushed but, in retrospect, it was one of the best bits of advice that I was ever given. Your magazine could do with a bit of that, too!

To sum up then, an impressive project which was doubtless very beneficial to those involved but which missed the mark by forgetting its true raison d'etre.

I hope that that is constructive criticism and that it helps should the experiment be repeated! Now I am off to read what everone else has written!

(..and if there is a next time, don't forget the 'funnies'!)

James.Stuttard
30-11-2008, 01:34 PM
I found the Mag a little patronising and seemed to be filled with an almost teenage angst tone of:

"Why not listen to your young people" - As if we don't at the moment??

There are lots of things we can ask our YP, and they can influence and have their views, but fundermentally they are young people for a reason - they cannot and must not be allowed to make all their own decisisions. Choas would follow and it'd all go wrong. Children are not capable of making some decisions, somethings have to be done by adults.

Daniel
30-11-2008, 04:19 PM
I thought the magazine was very well designed - however probably not the best design if your aiming at anyone aged 18 to 118...

I didn't like the fact that page 10 - 11 were laid out horizontally. And leaving the 'last laugh' out of the publication all together wasn't the best idea... many people look at that first! (me included) in fact i actually flicked through the whole magazine a few times trying to find it in case it had been moved somewhere else.

And for next time, i look forward to reading Richard's interview ;)

West Hull DESC
30-11-2008, 04:51 PM
I think the mag was great for the YP's but not so good for us oldies!!! I found a number of the articles hard to read as the font it's gone when it printed and with the dark background.

Scouting Mag is not Scouting Mag without last laugh. I also think it needs to go back to monthly and some stuff is being carried over for months after it happends. A letter writen now isn't going to appear till at least Feb's edition.

Well done to you all anyway.

wolfie
30-11-2008, 05:22 PM
As many others have said all credit to those involved for giving it a good go, as I'm sure you'll all have given up much time and effort in doing so. Do take all our comments in the manner in wich they are intended - which is nothing personal and is as much about the magazine in general as it is this particular edition.

Like many things though it's about the target audience and this edition "style" etc did strike me too as being aimed at teenagers etc rather than the adults (in fact I showed my 15 year old and he thought it was a teen magazine...)

I'm afraid the comment about sharing chips (although I can understand where it comes from) did rather rankle, as like many our leaders seldom get chance to grab anything before a meeting anyway.

So, now the YP have been allowed a "turn" who else on :escouts: votes "leaders from the coal face" should be allowed a future edition too?????????? Strikes me from suggestions made we'd soon be able to get a team together:D

Dramatist
30-11-2008, 05:42 PM
As promised, I have now read the thread and I discover (surprise, surprise) that I am not alone in my views.

. Do take all our comments in the manner in wich they are intended - which is nothing personal and is as much about the magazine in general as it is this particular edition.
I wish to reiterate Wolfie's point. I have nothing but admiration for the YP in taking on and seeing through the project. I am sure, too that it will have been a terrific experience for them and just the sort of unique thing that the Scout Association should be doing and should be proud to be leading the way in so doing.

.(in fact I showed my 15 year old and he thought it was a teen magazine...)
....This is the big 'beef' which comes through in people's posts. Perhaps there is something to be gained here. Perhaps YP in Scouting should have their own magazine - it would be something else unique to us! If the funding and sponsorship were to be found for such a publication then these young people have made an excellent case for being the ones to start it going!

.So, now the YP have been allowed a "turn" who else on :escouts: votes "leaders from the coal face" should be allowed a future edition too?????????? Strikes me from suggestions made we'd soon be able to get a team together:D
After my essay to the YP over this one in my earlier post, I would have to put my money where my mouth is - I'd be up for it - great idea!;)

big chris
30-11-2008, 05:57 PM
Thanks for the feedback so far guys it's been quite an interesting read in this topic! It's funny how everyone brings up the Last Laugh as we knew that was probably the one thing that might be slightly controversial back when we planned the issue in August.

I'm

why did you get rid of it? it is the bit that keeps leaders sane... i don't know the process behind writing it but we all sit there thinking Ian West is spying on us... it's all happenned to us... i might be being petty but

here's waht took its place:

lrn 2 cmunic8: get on a social networking site... ok... so i need a myspace page, a bebo page, a facebook page, msn and i need to deal with the parents who follow the rules and don't allow their children to use those sites and wonder why they're missing out on info (myspace:14, facebook and bebo 13)

share your dinner: what chuffing dinner...? i don't eat until 10pm on a scout night....

Back to the future: lean to be 16 again... (this ties in with the next one
Get our views: are you kidding me? we only do this to pkeep the kids happy... we are always assessing how much something was enjoyed or whether something would be popular...

Use POL: ok... good idea... many of us do...

Get spiritual : encourage discussion... etc... What do you think weare doing as we are pilting a narrowboat, walking up a mountain, talking about remembrance day etc...

sorry... last laugh really must come back... not patronising pap like its replacement...

i'll flicj through for some good points:

letters, intersteing... esp. re grants and loans
everyday adventure: programme ideas
v brief interview with a medal winner... were you scared of boring us with anything longer than 200 words? I'd read more about him v happily. good start though
Should I stay or should I go this identified problems but did not present many solutions... again, good start
Welsh at heart a real article... with paragraphs and a bit of depth... nice one
Trainer feature rather well done
QSA stuff good idea... esp as you can get it up to 25 now. good advert for the award.
Bringing the outdoors in a good little pep talk for us... well written and not patronising... well done Dannie
Gadgets always good
Resources always useful
Active kids, cool, i was wondering about that. nice one
Christmas quiz increasingly google proof... it's excellent

so.. some good stuff there... could do better... and i rather like my "church newsletter-style monthly handout" idea... that would be useful

Richard
30-11-2008, 06:06 PM
Ah Chris, so you've read and anaylised this one more than any of the last ones, so to me thats a result. :D

I think there have always beens problems with the format, some of it is to do with the fact that its a printed magazine, and if you read any online media, including :escouts: not a lot is new.

Dramatist
30-11-2008, 06:12 PM
Christmas quiz increasingly google proof... it's excellent
I can give you the answers to the first three - for a small consideration! ;) The rest will have to wait til at least Boxing Day - far too much to do before then!
I agree, it is excellent as ever. So sad that it is the last of the 'originals'!

big chris
30-11-2008, 06:16 PM
Ah Chris, so you've read and anaylised this one more than any of the last ones, so to me thats a result. :D

I think there have always beens problems with the format, some of it is to do with the fact that its a printed magazine, and if you read any online media, including :escouts: not a lot is new.

i have always held that if I look at 25% then that's good... but i would like the other 75% to be easily scannable... so i can take in the info...

i always flick through every page and much of it bores me... but it gets harder and harder to pick up the info...

big chris
30-11-2008, 06:28 PM
I can give you the answers to the first three - for a small consideration! ;) The rest will have to wait til at least Boxing Day - far too much to do before then!
I agree, it is excellent as ever. So sad that it is the last of the 'originals'!

1 - yes
2 - no
3- yes
4- yes
5- yes
6- (i assume that can be found out)
7- b... ummmm... need to think about that
8- this is clever... i've no idea
9- easy peasy
10 i think i know... need to check a book... darn... no... ummm... i have another theory... no... darn... grrrrr it's not the animals in Animal Farm... nor is it the animals in the bible...
11... eh?
14... i'll need to read up a bit
15... hopefully my diary will tell me this
16... gulp... i'll need to sit dowm with pen and paper...
17... this must be a trick one...
18... is life too short? possibly
19... oh god... i feel an equation coming on
20... again... gonna have to sit and think... grrrr

tom_
30-11-2008, 07:05 PM
Bring back 'The Last Laugh'.

"

No - it isn't funny how everyone brings it up - it shows what a popular feature it is, and shows how you haven't though about your reader - the leaders. An apology would be better than a flippant comment!

I don't think there needs to be an apology at all(and i don't think my comment was flippant!) and we did think about it and ultimately we decided not to include it as we didn't feel it necessary to. We knew it was a controversial move but we wanted to do it and put something that reflected the issue as a whole there instead.

We wanted the issue to be one that brought up the issues that we felt strongly about and make you think about those issues and i think it's brilliant that it's struck a chord with so many people - when was the last Scouting magazine that generated this many comments and such a lively debate.

In regards to the design we wanted to break the mold of the usual Scouting magazine layout and do something different, make it look more youthful, make it look like a magazine we would read but at the end of the day have content that was relevant to the adults in scouting and we wanted to use the issue to as a voice about what we as young people in scouting would like to see.

I'm thrilled that there has been so much feedback and made a lot of people think about it and discuss it - at least you read it!

Tom

alanghorn
30-11-2008, 07:27 PM
We wanted the issue to be one that brought up the issues that we felt strongly about and make you think about those issues and i think it's brilliant that it's struck a chord with so many people - when was the last Scouting magazine that generated this many comments and such a lively debate.

...

I'm thrilled that there has been so much feedback and made a lot of people think about it and discuss it - at least you read it!



As a YSP myself, first and foremost I want to congratulate those that made it down to Gilwell earlier in the year to plan the magazine. I haven't read it all yet, mainly because I have to resort to reading it in PDF format from the website, but I have asked Gilwell to send a copy up here.

Looking at the following excerpts from _tom's latest post, isn't it quite clear that the magazine has served it's purpose? The purpose is not only to inform and educate leaders, but also to instill and stir on debate about how we do things. If one issue of a relatively small magazine - by readership, not by physical dimensions - has stirred up debate from all four corners of Escouts, then surely it has served it's purpose well and truly?

Congratulations to my fellow YSPs, and I can't wait to get my hands on a copy.

tom_
30-11-2008, 07:43 PM
I found the Mag a little patronising and seemed to be filled with an almost teenage angst tone of:

"Why not listen to your young people" - As if we don't at the moment??

There are lots of things we can ask our YP, and they can influence and have their views, but fundermentally they are young people for a reason - they cannot and must not be allowed to make all their own decisisions. Choas would follow and it'd all go wrong. Children are not capable of making some decisions, somethings have to be done by adults.

I completely disagree with you, young people, no matter what age, are more than capable of making decisions that affect them. I am also a coach for a young rugby team and they know what they like and what they don't and actively give me and the rest of my coaching team feedback about it after the session which then allows us to adjust our sessions to something they not only enjoy but is helping them develop as a player. This is the same principal as listening to your colony, pack, troop or unit - any feedback positive or negative helps you in the future. One thing that shocked me in one of the articles was that the Cubs that were asked said they found it hard to give feedback to leaders.... is this really listening to young people?

You are right Young People ARE Young People for a reason - we are under 18 (or 25 depending what sections you class as young people) but when it comes to what we like we are the ones that know best and this knowledge should be used to inform decisions.

If Young People are not allowed to make any decisions then you are blocking our personal development (an aim of TSA) as we cannot learn from any mistakes that we make or know what is a good decision or a bad one, that's hardly preparing us for the big wide world where we will have to make decisions, sometimes very tough ones!

You say that you found the magazine fairly patronising - it was not intentionally written to sound like that and I'm not convinced it does but you are entitled to your opinion as much as i am and i respect that and in response to your post i find the content of that quite patronising as a young person.

Thanks for your post and i respect your viewpoint but i just don't agree with it.

astwood7
30-11-2008, 07:48 PM
I completely disagree with you, young people, no matter what age, are more than capable of making decisions that affect them. Sounds like us oldies should bow out and leave you to it ....

tom_
30-11-2008, 07:52 PM
Sounds like us oldies should bow out and leave you to it ....

Obviously we need you to run the evenings etc. and plan. My point was that YP are capable of making decisions and within reason should be allowed to do this in regard to programmes... maybe allocate an evening to be planned by PL's and if they **** it up then they can learn from that and realise that it is not so easy being a leader. In my experience leaders that have done this have earnt a hell of a lot more respect afterwards as the YP then really appreciate what they do.

My response was making a point to the post that said YP should not be allowed to make decisions which i think is the wrong attitude.

wolfie
30-11-2008, 07:56 PM
but when it comes to what we like we are the ones that know best and this knowledge should be used to inform decisions.
.

Most of us will wholeheratedly agree that young people are all entitled to a view, an opinion etc and should be encouraged to be part of the decision making processes at appropriate levels. This applies at home and in the wider world.

But personally as a parent and a scouting adult you and I will have to disagree on "we are the ones that know best". I do agree that young people think they know what they like, but harsh reality is perception is often different from reality (and yes, I know I sound like my own Mother but she was right!!!!!!!!)

I do agree views should be listened to, debate and discussion encouraged but at ALL ages there is often one or two people who ultimately decide (both in personal life, hobbies and at work) - hopefully taking various viewpoints, risks, finances, inclusion etc into account. Often this may well be the young people themselves making the decison, and rightly so, but it can never be always.

big chris
30-11-2008, 08:05 PM
maybe allocate an evening to be planned by PL's and if they **** it up then they can learn from that and realise that it is not so easy being a leader.

ever run a night when your PLs failed? It's rubbish... the patrols have a bad night and the PLs go home miserable, embarassed and downheartened... the leaders feel even worse

what we do as leaders is set targets for our kids that they can reach... we challenge PLs to learn and grow... to lead small things, occasionally to lead big things but we set them up to succeed... not to fail

the best leaders are the ones who send the kids home thinking they are fantastic, able to do anything... it's difficult...it takes much more work to let the kids have ownership of something... but it's possible and most of us do it most of the time...

what would be genuinely useful would be not the diktat "you must listen to kids" but some case studies from leaders about how they involve kids...

if we do normal brainstorming, most of us don't get past karting, paintball, bungee, bowling and quasar... I have a few techniques for involving kids, giving them real decisions but I'd love to see how other troops run a patrol camp, organise an expedition, plan a night for 40 wild kids... (all the troop ideas seem to be for 18 perfectly behaved angels)... etc etc...

real ideas from real leaders... that winter article was excellent... it gave us a couple of ideas... i'd like loads of articles like that and going into great depth...

on another active thread, we have 19th purley who has been doing this for a term (i think)... telling him to "listen to kids" is like tellinh him to "do orienteering". he can't orienteer and he would also like some real life examples of how to involve kids in planning... (i assume)

do you really believe that most of us are running dull programmes without child input?

Raksha
30-11-2008, 08:06 PM
I don't know how to do what I want to do, so please bear with me.

I'm thrilled that there has been so much feedback and made a lot of people think about it and discuss it - at least you read it! Tom
I think its a shame that you are the only one on here at the moment defending your teams decisions, but that is a separate issue.
I think you will find that most of us read this magazine anyway. The fact that we don't comment on it too much means one of two things. Either we like what we get, or it isn't actually too relevant that particular month for what ever reason. Occasionally there are threads on here about particular issues of the magazine.

"In regards to the design we wanted to break the mold of the usual Scouting magazine layout and do something different, make it look more youthful, make it look like a magazine we would read but at the end of the day have content that was relevant to the adults in scouting "
Why make it look more youthful when its readership is Adults? All you have done is demonstrate that you need a publication relevant to you in Scouting, I don't think you would get any arguments on here about that. The fonts and colours used were difficult to read for some-one with visual difficulties (I have some difficulty and I found it hard to read the coloured sections).
I am afraid that some of the content was not relevant to adults in Scouting. Why did we need to see pictures of what you did at Gilwell? It filled pages, it didn't tell me anything I didn't know about what is available at Gilwell.

"We wanted the issue to be one that brought up the issues that we felt strongly about and make you think about those issues and i think it's brilliant that it's struck a chord with so many people - when was the last Scouting magazine that generated this many comments and such a lively debate."

This is an issue that brings up issues that YOU feel strongly about. Are they issues that other YP feel strongly about? What in this issue addresses the problems that Beavers have about crime, bullying, nightmares,fighting or teenagers to take the first 5 items on the list on p22.
Same for the Cub list.
I am glad you think it is brilliant that it has struck a chord - the sad fact is that although we applaud your efforts, the chord you have struck is the wrong one!

"I don't think there needs to be an apology at all(and i don't think my comment was flippant!) and we did think about it and ultimately we decided not to include it as we didn't feel it necessary to. We knew it was a controversial move but we wanted to do it and put something that reflected the issue as a whole there instead."
Yes it did reflect the issue as a whole, Lets aim it at Explorers and Young Leaders, blow the regular readership, This is what we want, this is what you should be doing, and we know best attitude, as sort of summed up by your own last word section - get yourself on a social network system - I don't have time for this and I don't want to be on a social network system.
Share your dinner - yeah right. :mad: I have nothing to eat - want me to share that? The meeting is normally ready to run anyway or the YP help set it up as part of their night.
Back to the future - I dont know what it is like to be 16 in 2009 - neither do you it is 2008 :D Seriously, I run Scouts - they are 10 -14, I don't need to know about 16 year olds yet. I do need to know about 10 -14's, just when I thought I had boys sussed I now have to learn about girls - no problems, I try to talk to them.
Do something different. - I do use POL, I do different things. When I took over I changed somethings and kept others. Change isn't always liked as you are discovering.;)
Get spiritual - My YP continually suprise me on this, and I like to think that I offer them the opportunities they need on a regular basis. Do you think we don't do this? Maybe you need to be talking to your own leaders rather than preaching to others.

What really concerns me is that the YP who have edited this issue appear to be tarring all Leaders with the same brush. There are undoubtedly some leaders out there who will welcome this issue as it has given them some ideas, there will be others who think who the heck do they think they are?
The vast majority of Leaders are doing the best they can with the resources (human and otherwise) they have at their fingertips.
As I said in my first post, well done for doing it, but not what I wanted.

tom_
30-11-2008, 08:12 PM
Most of us will wholeheratedly agree that young people are all entitled to a view, an opinion etc and should be encouraged to be part of the decision making processes at appropriate levels. This applies at home and in the wider world.

But personally as a parent and a scouting adult you and I will have to disagree on "we are the ones that know best". I do agree that young people think they know what they like, but harsh reality is perception is often different from reality (and yes, I know I sound like my own Mother but she was right!!!!!!!!)

I do agree views should be listened to, debate and discussion encouraged but at ALL ages there is often one or two people who ultimately decide (both in personal life, hobbies and at work) - hopefully taking various viewpoints, risks, finances, inclusion etc into account. Often this may well be the young people themselves making the decison, and rightly so, but it can never be always.

I agree with you... perception of things do influence YP's decisions... i think i was responding to that one post and completely missed that in the moment. I don't think i said it should always be YP making decisions as i know thats not viable and i think what you said is spot on and i couldn't have been said much better... Thank You!

Fearless Guider
30-11-2008, 08:19 PM
As a relative new comer to scouting (well formally (that's a whole other story) - just recived my scouting CRB through the post and can only assume that my appointment card will follow soon)... I am amused to see that I already know and recognise two out of the four people on the cover of said magazine - infact, i've seen them in previous scouting magazines on the scouts website too.

But, it strikes me as a little odd that the same faces re-appear. As it happens i know them from the 21st WSJ and have a great deal of time for both of them (as becky will know!:D) My comment is not aimed at the young people, but in a wider sense - why is it the same people get approached? They are extremely lucky (and i'm sure appricate it) to get these opportunities and I do look forward to reciving my copy of scouting magazine when my appointment goes through - it must be a veritable trove of information to have brought about such debate.

Raksha
30-11-2008, 08:36 PM
I have no idea, I guess it is because they were selected somewhere along the line to be Young Spokespeople. I have to say that although I have had a couple of Scouts who would have been ideal for this role, they were never invited to attend any training despite me asking for them.

Alec
30-11-2008, 09:05 PM
Hi everyone, it’s great to read through the feedback; some thought provoking stuff! I’ve put together some response to your discussion points below, and if anyone would like any questions answered specifically, I’ll try and do my best!

Content of main features:
Having spoken to many Leaders about the sexual health guidance that was launched earlier in the autumn, it became clear in my mind that some still felt uncomfortable in discussing such issues. I think it was therefore quite ambitious to tap into some of the topics in the main features, and hopefully this will help to offer everyone a view to the situations facing young people today. If many leaders feel that they already know this, then that’s fantastic!!!

Layout:
I think everyone has summed up the views already. I think it’s important that this is kept in mind for all future issues. If it’s wrong, we need to know!

Young People’s magazine:
Having spent today at Gilwell at a communications advisory meeting, the internal communications to Young People is an issue currently being explored.

‘Glorification’:
This was my primary worry over the last week. I definitely did not want to see a publication that was screaming: ‘I love myself’! I’ve always wanted to remove any sort of generation-gap in the things I do in Scouting, and I’m sorry if any Leaders felt there was a patronising undertone.

The Big Issue:
With the review on Scouting fundamentals in its early stages, it would be really interesting to here some views on this. (Probably best saved for another thread, so that this one doesn’t get clogged up). But it would be great to find out, where is the ‘development’ in ‘spiritual development’!

Hoodies, binge drinkers and future leaders:
Again, I appreciate there has been some discussion already about this is separate topics, but now we have the feedback both from the Scouts involved and the MP’s, would love to hear some comments on this!

Fanatical adventures abroad:
Don’t think we hit many of these. I sort of slid one into the Everyday Adventures section, in the Network contribution, however the focus was on the fundraising. Hopefully the main features are relevant to local Scouting?

Scout Handbook:
I believe it is priced at £5. I saw the final design at the beginning of the month, and it looked really good! (afraid I didn’t have the time to read it though).

Campsite database extra/supplement:
No involvement from us, but was pleased to see this enclosed! I know it happens every year, but again, it’s the sort of thing that was suggested on here a few months back!

The Last Laugh:
Firstly, it’s hard to tell if any of the comments on here are sarcastic, but I think most are genuine. My understanding is that nobody bought the book once it had been commissioned. The main question is cost, and seeing as Scout Shops are now resorting to giving the book away for free, there seems to be little profit to continue the feature? The only other way I can think of funding it, would be to put more adverts in the magazine, but I doubt that would be very popular! As a Young Leader, in past issues of the magazine, I found the main features to offer some inspiration, but the Last Laugh never really had any effect on how I do my local Scouting. I think that this logic matches that in previous threads, and as very few people showed support for the book, the decision to exclude it from the magazine was made.

I’ll try and keep an eye on this topic, and reply again soon, but please keep the feedback coming!

Many thanks!
Alec

James.Stuttard
30-11-2008, 09:19 PM
I completely disagree with you, young people, no matter what age, are more than capable of making decisions that affect them.

No they can't... I'll give an example; I Teach in a Primary school and we have children come along for a taster day, one day a child was asked after his visit if he would like to come to our very successfull, well run school. he decided (and his daft mother listened to him) that he'd go to another school he visited, because they had served chips. No, really, that was the reason. He didn't think about the teaching that day or the class or anything a parent might think about. Children can't see the "big picture"

I'll give another example: when I was 15 I drank an aweful lot of beer and passed out - I was young and incapable of making a decision that affected my well being - I just kept drinking!!



This is the same principal as listening to your colony, pack, troop or unit - any feedback positive or negative helps you in the future. One thing that shocked me in one of the articles was that the Cubs that were asked said they found it hard to give feedback to leaders.... is this really listening to young people?


"Feedback" from young people is instintive and immediate, they feedback on activities with how they act: behaviour is often their most accurate way of telling us what they think of a new game or activity.

I'm quite enjoying being though of as an "Old Fart" Mind, I've got to wonder, what was the Llangollen feature all about? I didn't get any programme, structure or any suggestions that'd help my own scouting, it seemed to be a rather prolonged advert.

Raksha
30-11-2008, 09:25 PM
Scout Handbook:
I believe it is priced at £5. I saw the final design at the beginning of the month, and it looked really good! (afraid I didn’t have the time to read it though).


The Last Laugh:
Firstly, it’s hard to tell if any of the comments on here are sarcastic, but I think most are genuine. My understanding is that nobody bought the book once it had been commissioned. The main question is cost, and seeing as Scout Shops are now resorting to giving the book away for free, there seems to be little profit to continue the feature? The only other way I can think of funding it, would be to put more adverts in the magazine, but I doubt that would be very popular! As a Young Leader, in past issues of the magazine, I found the main features to offer some inspiration, but the Last Laugh never really had any effect on how I do my local Scouting. I think that this logic matches that in previous threads, and as very few people showed support for the book, the decision to exclude it from the magazine was made.

I’ll try and keep an eye on this topic, and reply again soon, but please keep the feedback coming!

Many thanks!
Alec
£5 for the handbook, mm, not sure how many will buy this.

Last Laugh.
I bought the book. I don't look at it as having an effect on how I do my Scouting. I look on it as - I can just so see that happening! It is a giggle. Something to lighten the mood. Just because people didn't spend £5 on a little book doesn't mean that it isn't a much loved feature of the magazine. I am also suprised that you get a copy as a Young Leader. My YL's dont' get a copy. More likely it is because you are a YS that you get a copy!

Dramatist
30-11-2008, 09:52 PM
...... it must be a veritable trove of information to have brought about such debate.
Sadly, that's one thing it isn't!
The reason it has brought about such debate is because it is a 'one-off' experiment which, I am sure I can speak for many of us, we really wanted to see succeed. I must say that I have many of the same reservations as Hilary has about it. Perhaps the experiment itself was ill-conceived - a bit like asking form 4 to edit 'The Oldie'!

What these hard working and ernest young people have produced is a great Teen Mag for Explorers, YL etc etc. As such it might well prove an invaluable template for a future project - it is just that that project is not 'Scouting Magazine'.

A thought for the editors:
If I write a notice for six year olds to read, I try to use my very clearest writing so that they have a chance of reading it. It is what they are used to seeing at school and my everyday scrawl would be out of their comfort zone, would be illegible to them and would alienate the very people I wanted to read my notice. By taking your adult audience out of its reading comfort zone into a world of text on exotic backgrounds and bizarrre fonts you are doing what my scrawl would do for six year olds. It may well look trendy to young eyes but to aging myopic varifocal wearers it just says 'Don't bother, it's not worth the headache (literally) that it will cause!'

If your audience feels comfortable from the start, you gain their trust and can lead them where you will, challenging their ideas and beliefs almost without their realising that it is happening. If, however, they are uncomfortable from the start, they will dig their toes in, refuse to move with you and either 'switch off' or rebel and turn on you.

Had you kept us in our comfort zone with the layout, you would have got away with the content no problem and probably changed a few views rather than raising a few hackles, along the way!

Hope this helps!

(PS Have a look at my Website - it uses much of what you do in the magazine. Adults find it hard going in places and say, "too many blocks of colour and too much text on colour", but those places are not aimed at Adults, they are aimed at my Scouts etc who love it! The 'Adult info pages' although mainly hidden behind a password, are very much more 'staid and traditional').

tom_
30-11-2008, 10:03 PM
Sadly, that's one thing it isn't!
Had you kept us in our comfort zone with the layout, you would have got away with the content no problem and probably changed a few views rather than raising a few hackles, along the way!


Thanks very much for your comments again, same with everyone's - they are all really interesting to read.

I think this point is quite good, when we met to plan it in august we didn't want to keep the magazine in the leaders 'comfort zone', we wanted to be a bit edgy and ultimately different (which from the comments we must have done as it is a reccuring theme in the comments so far). I don't think that this change has done too much damage as it is a one-off...

Out of curiousity quite a few people have said it wasn't quite what they expected (or words to that effect) so i was wondering what everyone was expecting from the issue (maybe it could help in the future)?

Thanks

shiftypete
30-11-2008, 10:13 PM
I just finished reading the magazine from cover to cover.

Yes it was different from the normal Scouting Magazine but obviously it would be with having Scouts editing it as they do not have the experience of being a Leader to give advice from our perspective. So the idea to let them try and express to us Leaders what the Scouts (in all Sections) think about some relatively common issues seemed pretty good for a one off issue.

The layout was a little in your face but I didn't have any real issue actually reading it (and I am on the verge of needing reading glasses). The articles were generally a bit too short but with so many things to try to cover in only one magazine I can understand why short articles were decided on. I do think the tone was a little patronizing at times but probably only to the converted of us who already do a lot of the things suggested (although I draw the line at giving my food away ;) )

Would I like the magazine like this all the time? No definitely not. However this was a one off oppertunity for Scouts to edit TSA's magazine for Leaders and I think they made a pretty good job of it overall.

Dramatist
30-11-2008, 10:29 PM
I didn't have any real issue actually reading it (and I am on the verge of needing reading glasses).
I tripped over that verge and dropped off the following cliff ten years ago - and I did struggle a bit reading it!

However this was a one off oppertunity for Scouts to edit TSA's magazine for Leaders and I think they made a pretty good job of it overall.
Hear Hear! I can only admire them for having the bottle to take it on and I hope that this thread remains, for them constructive and not destructive!

tom_
30-11-2008, 10:33 PM
I just finished reading the magazine from cover to cover.

Yes it was different from the normal Scouting Magazine but obviously it would be with having Scouts editing it as they do not have the experience of being a Leader to give advice from our perspective. So the idea to let them try and express to us Leaders what the Scouts (in all Sections) think about some relatively common issues seemed pretty good for a one off issue.

The layout was a little in your face but I didn't have any real issue actually reading it (and I am on the verge of needing reading glasses). The articles were generally a bit too short but with so many things to try to cover in only one magazine I can understand why short articles were decided on. I do think the tone was a little patronizing at times but probably only to the converted of us who already do a lot of the things suggested (although I draw the line at giving my food away ;) )

Would I like the magazine like this all the time? No definitely not. However this was a one off oppertunity for Scouts to edit TSA's magazine for Leaders and I think they made a pretty good job of it overall.

This is what we were emphasising - we were given the magazine for one issue so we wanted to make it as different as we could whilst still keeping a few things the same. It's impossible to cover every single issue due to page limitations and we had about another 3 or 4 A2 sheets full of ideas of stories we wanted to cover and the ones that appear in the magazine are those that we felt had the strongest impact.

As Alec and I have said it wasn't written to be patronising and whilst you and others may well be enlightened doesn't mean its an irrelevant issue as i'm sure there will be some leaders somewhere that will look at it and think 'actually i will ask my cubs what they think' and if that happens we've done brilliantly - if it helps 1 person thats fantastic, maybe even share a chip;). As everyone is different and at different stages it is impossible, as Richard said, to write a magazine completely relevant for 100,000 people - if you are already doing all these things it's brilliant and your Scouts have a fab leader!

I hope there was something for everyone in there (even if its the smallest thing)

Chris Lambert
30-11-2008, 10:37 PM
maybe even share a chip;)

That presumably light hearted comment implies to me a lack of understanding of why the leaders are turning up with chips. In pretty much every case it's because their rushing from their day job to get ready for the section meeting and won't have time to eat otherwise.

I'm not going to share them - I bought them so I get food!

shiftypete
30-11-2008, 10:39 PM
I tripped over that verge and dropped off the following cliff ten years ago - and I did struggle a bit reading it!

Yes but I assume you actually have reading glasses then, I on the other hand need a trip to the opticians as the newspaper is becoming a struggle to read ;)


That presumably light hearted comment implies to me a lack of understanding of why the leaders are turning up with chips. In pretty much every case it's because their rushing from their day job to get ready for the section meeting and won't have time to eat otherwise.

I'm not going to share them - I bought them so I get food!
Yep, rarely a week goes by that I don't end up eating half my tea before I go to Explorers and the other half after I get back as I am rushing around madly trying to print off letters and gather up the things needed for the meeting.

tom_
30-11-2008, 10:41 PM
That presumably light hearted comment implies to me a lack of understanding of why the leaders are turning up with chips. In pretty much every case it's because their rushing from their day job to get ready for the section meeting and won't have time to eat otherwise.

I'm not going to share them - I bought them so I get food!


I actually wrote that part of the magazine and i wrote it as i take chips to scout meeting as i go straight from college to the scout hut to be a YL for beavers at 5, then stay through for cubs and scouts until 10ish, so im there for upwards of 5 hours, therefore i pop out to the chippy in between cubs and scouts in order to eat. so i think i know exactly why leaders turn up with chips!

That lighthearted comment i made was due to the fact quite a few people brought it up so i thought hey ill make a comment about it!

wolfie
30-11-2008, 10:45 PM
I actually wrote that part of the magazine and i wrote it as i take chips to scout meeting as i go straight from college to the scout hut to be a YL for beavers at 5, then stay through for cubs and scouts until 10ish sometimes so im there for upwards of 5 hours therefore i pop out to the chippy in between cubs and scouts in order to eat. so i think i know exactly why leaders turn up with chips!

That lighthearted comment i made was due to the fact quite a few people brought it up so i thought hey ill make a comment about it!


Maybe a lesson learned about context there... when you explain I understand better (even if I don't agree) but when I just read what was in the magazine that's not how it came across, at least to me.

Chris Neal 2008
30-11-2008, 10:47 PM
I have no idea, I guess it is because they were selected somewhere along the line to be Young Spokespeople. I have to say that although I have had a couple of Scouts who would have been ideal for this role, they were never invited to attend any training despite me asking for them.

As a YSP and NYR, i saw the Advert on Scouts.org and Scouting Plus weekly email... It just happens that the people who attually contacted HQ, where YSPS!

tom_
30-11-2008, 10:50 PM
Maybe a lesson learned about context there... when you explain I understand better (even if I don't agree) but when I just read what was in the magazine that's not how it came across, at least to me.

I know what your saying but it's hard to get the context in with that small amount of words so it went in without it and people can obviously relate to it albeit with different views...

but i hope i cleared up the chip debate!

Chris Neal 2008
30-11-2008, 10:51 PM
I'll give another example: when I was 15 I drank an aweful lot of beer and passed out - I was young and incapable of making a decision that affected my well being - I just kept drinking!!


But surely you can't classed all YP with the same brush... The Small Miniority is how all Adults in the community seem to see young people, The SMALL MINORITY.... NOT ALL!

Dramatist
30-11-2008, 10:56 PM
Yes but I assume you actually have reading glasses then, I on the other hand need a trip to the opticians as the newspaper is becoming a struggle to read ;)
Varifocals actually, which are great but which have one major drawback which is that anything printed at an angle has to be turned vertical for comfortable reading - the 'post it' note 'taped' over straight text on page 3 was particularly difficult and the varied angles of photos and text on the 'Personal Effects' item on p30/31 made me feel dizzy (partly due to vertigo which is a side effect of what put me in a wheelchair). The white on blue on page 59 (Bringing the outdoors in) had me reduced to wondering if I had any paracetamol in the house! - Ok, so I am falling to bits and should be certified! :D

Chris Neal 2008
30-11-2008, 10:57 PM
Last Laugh.
I bought the book. I don't look at it as having an effect on how I do my Scouting. I look on it as - I can just so see that happening! It is a giggle. Something to lighten the mood. Just because people didn't spend £5 on a little book doesn't mean that it isn't a much loved feature of the magazine. I am also suprised that you get a copy as a Young Leader. My YL's dont' get a copy. More likely it is because you are a YS that you get a copy![/QUOTE]

If you conatact Gilwell or via the new Beta system you should be able to register them...

I think this point is quite good, when we met to plan it in august we didn't want to keep the magazine in the leaders 'comfort zone', we wanted to be a bit edgy and ultimately different (which from the comments we must have done as it is a reccuring theme in the comments so far). I don't think that this change has done too much damage as it is a one-off...


The layout / Type change was not due to us... However from what i know i think it will be staying from future issues...
This was down to the GIlwell Team and THink - Publishers

dontkillbill
30-11-2008, 11:06 PM
I havent got my mag yet:( Hope it hurrys up, otherwise I may have to resort to doing revision:O

tom_
30-11-2008, 11:06 PM
Last Laugh.
I bought the book. I don't look at it as having an effect on how I do my Scouting. I look on it as - I can just so see that happening! It is a giggle. Something to lighten the mood. Just because people didn't spend £5 on a little book doesn't mean that it isn't a much loved feature of the magazine. I am also suprised that you get a copy as a Young Leader. My YL's dont' get a copy. More likely it is because you are a YS that you get a copy!

If you conatact Gilwell or via the new Beta system you should be able to register them...

I think this point is quite good, when we met to plan it in august we didn't want to keep the magazine in the leaders 'comfort zone', we wanted to be a bit edgy and ultimately different (which from the comments we must have done as it is a reccuring theme in the comments so far). I don't think that this change has done too much damage as it is a one-off...


The layout / Type change was not due to us... However from what i know i think it will be staying from future issues...
This was down to the GIlwell Team and THink - Publishers

Not completely true Chris! uni life must be getting to you - when we went to the designers they had mocked up the pages and asked us for our thoughts and if we wanted to change anything and we unanimously voted to keep it as we all loved it! and i'm sure it will be converted back for the next issue!

Dramatist
30-11-2008, 11:08 PM
The layout / Type change was not due to us... However from what i know i think it will be staying from future issues...
This was down to the GIlwell Team and THink - Publishers
Please!!!! No!!!!!! Mercy!!!!!!
We are a captive readership and cannot vote with our wallets and not buy the mag. Please spare a thought for the older, blinder readers!!!!!!

Chris Neal 2008
30-11-2008, 11:09 PM
Sorry my Appologys... All this uni life geting to me! lol
The Type is going to be used across the Whole SA Publications.. Page layouts as far i know are going back to normal..

Sorry for any concern!

tom_
30-11-2008, 11:16 PM
Sorry my Appologys... All this uni life geting to me! lol
The Type is going to be used across the Whole SA Publications.. Page layouts as far i know are going back to normal..

Sorry for any concern!

there is a couple of pages explaining the changes to the visual identity near the back of the magazine... that will explain what is staying but the magazine will revert to what it was last issue...

Kastor
30-11-2008, 11:18 PM
When we met to plan it in august we didn't want to keep the magazine in the leaders 'comfort zone'Why? Have we upset you? Don't you want us any more?

tom_
30-11-2008, 11:23 PM
Why? Have we upset you? Don't you want us any more?

You caught us out;)

No, really, all joking aside, we approached it as Young People and we didn't want to stick to the conventional issue layout as it was never going to be a conventional issue therefore we wanted to make it stand out as much as possible, which it obviously did

Dramatist
30-11-2008, 11:27 PM
If you want to move people out of their comfort zone, you must first join them in there, take them by the hand and, very gently , lead them out of it -then you can influence them to your way of thinking.

tom_
30-11-2008, 11:30 PM
If you want to move people out of their comfort zone, you must first join them in there, take them by the hand and , very gently , lead them out of it!

but we can't do that in 1 issue - there has to be a certain amount of consistency throughout and as a one off why not throw them straight into the deep end!! it was an easy way to say we're young people and from the comments that must have came across. I understand your point completely though!

RedCoat
30-11-2008, 11:33 PM
Wow, almost wish I was still on the mailing list!

Although I've not yet been able to see the mag, it sounds like a sincere effort was made by the YP; but making their writing "fit for audience" was possibly forgotten. Ironic, seeing as (from comments made) one of the key messages from the YP seems to have been that our programme needs to be "fit for audience" and that we need to be reflective in our provision.

Once scouts.org.uk is up again I'll have to have a look for myself.

Pedge
30-11-2008, 11:54 PM
we wanted to make it stand out as much as possible, which it obviously did

I disagree I'm afraid. If I hadn't heard about the special issue on escouts, and hadn't read the first 3 pages, theres not a lot in there which isn't that different to a normal mag. The content is *slightly* more 'youthy' but the feeling seems to be more trying to persuade leaders to speak to yp on their level, which makes me feel very sorry for you if your leaders don't do that already. I pride myself on being a 'young at heart' leader and following the interests of my Scouts.

I'm not *that* upset at the last laugh scenario. It was an experiment, perhaps not the greatest idea, but you never know until you try. Hopefully the regular staff will put it back in.

tom_
30-11-2008, 11:58 PM
I disagree I'm afraid. If I hadn't heard about the special issue on escouts, and hadn't read the first 3 pages, theres not a lot in there which isn't that different to a normal mag. The content is *slightly* more 'youthy' but the feeling seems to be more trying to persuade leaders to speak to yp on their level, which makes me feel very sorry for you if your leaders don't do that already. I pride myself on being a 'young at heart' leader and following the interests of my Scouts.

I'm not *that* upset at the last laugh scenario. It was an experiment, perhaps not the greatest idea, but you never know until you try. Hopefully the regular staff will put it back in.

when i say stand out i meant in design... which it did do as so many people have commented on the design of the magazine.

Pedge
01-12-2008, 12:07 AM
Well speaking personally, I don't see much difference. To be honest, they have made subtle changes to the magazine so often it really doesn't stand out to me.

I'm also curious as to how much writing you guys did. Clearly some articles (specifically the one on the new image) were written by adults from headquaters, but there are clearly some talented writers amongst the team on this issue who could have a future in copy writing.

tom_
01-12-2008, 12:20 AM
Well speaking personally, I don't see much difference. To be honest, they have made subtle changes to the magazine so often it really doesn't stand out to me.

I'm also curious as to how much writing you guys did. Clearly some articles (specifically the one on the new image) were written by adults from headquaters, but there are clearly some talented writers amongst the team on this issue who could have a future in copy writing.

we wrote practically all of them the ones we didnt were:
bring out the trainer in you
hoodies binge drinkers and future leaders
a roaring success
the shape of things to come
and the scoutshops etc. stuff at the back (active kids offers etc.)

So we wrote pretty much the bulk of the magazine and they asked us to read the majority of what they had written but theres some things like scoutshops that have to be done by certain people.

Cheers for the comments

Pedge
01-12-2008, 12:55 AM
I put that bit in as i realized that i sound horribly negative. You guys genuinely made a great magazine, on standard to the regular issues and i congratulate you all. my main gripes are with the magazine itself. It seems like a lot of the content is about usually showing us how good life *could* be were we to be part of the perfect group.

Take, for example, the April/May 07 (and playing devils advocate a bit).

Skipping past the letters etc. at the front you have:
Photo of some divers from 1963 with an extended caption (interesting, maybe, but not useful)
Bunch of people climbing Everest (guilt trip perhaps "why arent YOU doing this?")
MORE about the Jamboree (Dont care, too far away, too expensive)
Take your group to Kandersteg (Too far away, too expensive)
Canoeing (too brief to be useful)
Gambia trek (Same feelings as Everest, also with added thoughts of "dont these people have jobs? I'd never get the time off for soemthing like that)
Training Advisor (so THATS how it's supposed to work eh? shame it doesnt here...)
Improve your confidence (wow so patronising)
Something about London (dont care)
30 things to do this summer (VERY south-centric. a BIG problem with anything that comes from gilwell)
Cycling (tried this with my scouts not long before the issue. from a troop of 13, 3 had bikes. made it difficult to follow that idea up)
More about cycling
And more (de ja vu now)
What happens when you become a Leader (Hang on, havent I already done this?)
Glorified advert for GPS system (not interested)
Something about Network (which came the month i turned 26, after having NO network in Cleveland for the entire time i was elligable)
Something about Fellowship (Don't get on with many of the fellowshippers round here, not interested)
Eating disorders (A SOMEWHAT USEFUL ARTICLE!!!)
Blue Peter (didnt even know it was still running)
Isle of Man (meh, might be with a read)
Jamboree (Yawn)
Live 07 (not interested, too far away, too expensive)
Sunrise (dont let my scouts see this, they might not be interested in what we have planned)
Something about egypt (not quite sure what the point of this article is...)
And then the adverts

So you see i think a lot of the comments here are endemic to the magazine itself, and not specific to your issue. All of the comments which have been made about layout/colours etc. could be made about the issue i've looked at, and infact the articles in yours are a bit more relavent as they are a bit more real world (the 'man in the street interviews' as opposed to Everest and Gambia)

tom_
01-12-2008, 07:42 AM
I put that bit in as i realized that i sound horribly negative. You guys genuinely made a great magazine, on standard to the regular issues and i congratulate you all. my main gripes are with the magazine itself. It seems like a lot of the content is about usually showing us how good life *could* be were we to be part of the perfect group.

Take, for example, the April/May 07 (and playing devils advocate a bit).

Skipping past the letters etc. at the front you have:
Photo of some divers from 1963 with an extended caption (interesting, maybe, but not useful)
Bunch of people climbing Everest (guilt trip perhaps "why arent YOU doing this?")
MORE about the Jamboree (Dont care, too far away, too expensive)
Take your group to Kandersteg (Too far away, too expensive)
Canoeing (too brief to be useful)
Gambia trek (Same feelings as Everest, also with added thoughts of "dont these people have jobs? I'd never get the time off for soemthing like that)
Training Advisor (so THATS how it's supposed to work eh? shame it doesnt here...)
Improve your confidence (wow so patronising)
Something about London (dont care)
30 things to do this summer (VERY south-centric. a BIG problem with anything that comes from gilwell)
Cycling (tried this with my scouts not long before the issue. from a troop of 13, 3 had bikes. made it difficult to follow that idea up)
More about cycling
And more (de ja vu now)
What happens when you become a Leader (Hang on, havent I already done this?)
Glorified advert for GPS system (not interested)
Something about Network (which came the month i turned 26, after having NO network in Cleveland for the entire time i was elligable)
Something about Fellowship (Don't get on with many of the fellowshippers round here, not interested)
Eating disorders (A SOMEWHAT USEFUL ARTICLE!!!)
Blue Peter (didnt even know it was still running)
Isle of Man (meh, might be with a read)
Jamboree (Yawn)
Live 07 (not interested, too far away, too expensive)
Sunrise (dont let my scouts see this, they might not be interested in what we have planned)
Something about egypt (not quite sure what the point of this article is...)
And then the adverts

So you see i think a lot of the comments here are endemic to the magazine itself, and not specific to your issue. All of the comments which have been made about layout/colours etc. could be made about the issue i've looked at, and in fact the articles in yours are a bit more relevant as they are a bit more real world (the 'man in the street interviews' as opposed to Everest and Gambia)

Thank You very much... I don't think you were negative at all and i know exactly where you are coming from with your examples about the magazine in general. When we met we knew that it normally focussed on big expeditions and we made a conscious decision to stray away from that.

Unfortunately we didn't have any say over the adverts as they have to be in there as it is very expensive to put together the magazine so in order to keep costs down and be able to post it out to every adult member there has to be advets.

DonTregartha
01-12-2008, 08:57 AM
I still haven't seen my copy yet.

I don't read mags on line.

Dramatist
01-12-2008, 09:07 AM
I still haven't seen my copy yet.
I don't read mags on line.
It's a mighty fine (if contraversial) effort, Don. The YP have quite clearly put heart and soul into it - even if we don't all appreciate the layout and some of the content (or lack of it), we can only admire what they have achieved.;)

Alec
01-12-2008, 04:52 PM
A few more bits and pieces…

Young Leaders:
I’m afraid I don’t yet receive the magazine as a Young Leader (although this will soon be the case, as Young Leaders begin to have similar benefits to adult Leaders; to offer them more support, and hopefully encourage them to stay on). Our copies (as editors) have been sent from Gilwell today, but I usually read my dad’s issue.

Comfort zones (regarding topics):
Obviously there are hundreds of controversial topics affecting young people. A couple of others that I think are important range from immigration (where close friends at school get deported), mental health issues (as around one in four suffer from these), and perhaps a closer focus on disability awareness. However, the topics chosen were broader, and likely to affect the majority, if not all, of the young people in Scouting.

Short articles:
This is not intended as an excuse, but I can offer the reasoning behind it. Take for example, ‘A Relevant Movement’, it is made up of sections on Marching, Badges, Uniform, St George’s Day, and others. Each of these topics could have been a 4-5 page article, but due to the restraints of an 84 page magazine, it was decided to culminate all into one. ‘Welcome to Our World’ is another example of this, where you could write books on each issue discussed. Hopefully we achieved an overview?

My Scouting vision:
(without sounding awfully cheesy)
Reading back through this topic, there’s a lot of ‘you’ and ‘us’ from both sides! As focused on in the magazine itself, children speaking to adults and adults speaking to children can often pose problems (I see teachers at school who have no idea how to communicate with certain year groups, for example). Any of these problems can be overcome, and I would like to think that there is no real generation-gap! In bridging the ‘gap’, we’re all part of the same team? In this issue, we communicated to Leaders some of our thoughts, but what is equally important in my eyes, is that Leaders communicate their expertise and experience to young people, as the Leaders of the future. Communication in Scouting needs to be a two-way thing! As a whole movement, I think we’re nearly there!

Don’t think I’ve missed any of the major questions that are still unanswered, but I’ll keep checking back!

DonTregartha
01-12-2008, 11:09 PM
Only one of my team has their copy yet.

Still not got mine :confused:

tomahawk
02-12-2008, 11:22 AM
I've had a good look through the magazine, and I would comment that:

I liked most of the new layout. One or two things go against my journalistic background and training as bad style, but overall, I liked 90% of the layout - it was fun and vibrant and reflected the authors, if not the audience.

Id love to see each section take over the mag once in a while, because it was very explorer/scout centric, with the other two sections not really getting the same proportion of information. But I did notice lots of cute Beavers illustrating the articles....:D Hey, a Beaver Mag could include free glitter :bigsmiley

That said, it has inspired me to start researching an article myself.

I think the overall message that came across is that the older scouts dont think we understand them. Maybe they are right, and as such, I think the whole teenaged angst thing actually works on one level...i hear the voices screaming in the wilderness. However, on the other level, it shows that the communication gap goes both ways...do you not think that we leaders were
confronted with drugs and peer pressure and all the rest? We still remember ...we were teenagers once too, and many of us have our own teens to tell us every day that we just dont get it.

But I think this is part of the charm - it reopens the debate, it allows us all to communicate better with our young people, to gain some insight into the fact theat their anxiety is very very similar to what we felt at their age. A timely reminder - their wants and fears and needs and concerns are not so different to ours.

I find it quite reassuring. I think we are harvesting a damn fine crop of young people, who are self aware and smart and funny and quirky. Exactly what I want to see :D

ianw
02-12-2008, 11:42 AM
I've had a good look through the magazine, and I would comment that:

I noticed a snippet from a Beaver Scout from my very own district! Well done them!

Ian

weefatbob
02-12-2008, 10:27 PM
I must say, I think it is a major triumph of design over substance. I am not a teenager (ha!), but I liked the design - it was fresh and showed the fun side of Scouting, which is what we are all about. But it did make some articles difficult to read, e.g. p39 or p10/11 has so much "stuff" on the page I couldn't concentrate on the actual argument!

However, credit has to go to the 9 young people who obviously put an incredible amount of effort into producing a magazine. And they volunteered their time... so if we are critical of it being the same as all the other Scouting Magazines lately, why are we paying the Scouting team wages??!!!!!

Bob

Evil Akela
02-12-2008, 11:17 PM
I have just discovered that the whole magazine is not online.
I was going to email the link to JAD's quiz to friends who don't have Scouting magazine, but have discovered that it is not in the online version. Now will have to scan it and email it that way. I am sure that in the past JAD has been in the online version.

Bushfella
03-12-2008, 08:16 AM
Reading back through this topic, there’s a lot of ‘you’ and ‘us’ from both sides!

Ho yes. Really got on my wick. There was a general theme of the old "We are young and you are old. We like marge and you like butter type of message.

I speak to my Scouts and Explorers as I would to almost any other person. I don't try to be their age, but I hopefully try to empathise with them and I can laugh with them and joke with them and we share experiences.

When I talk about Scouting with them I talk about us, about we, not you or I.

I ask, what do WE want to do next. Not what do YOU want to do next. When I'm giving a general row it is about OUR behaviour, not THEIR behaviour.

Quite frankly, if my Scouts had written so publicly in this manner I would have given serious consideration to resigning. Of course, I am well aware that the printed word does not always come across as intended, especially in today's soundbite world. Nonetheless, we should be bridging the divide, not defining it.

Perhaps its just me.

DonTregartha
03-12-2008, 08:59 AM
This is getting very annoying. :mad:

Everyone seems to have their copy except us chickens in Wing.

Perhaps the postie is holding them back as revenge for the Scout's Christmas Post. :smash:

In desperation I was going to follow the link but that this seems to have been taken out of the thread.

Someone PM it if it's out for copyright reasons.

(Or is this a conspiracy to shut me up!!) :rolleyes:

big chris
03-12-2008, 02:59 PM
oh... and here's something that struck me about your article about using social sites... i still see LOL as 'lots of love' as well as 'Laugh out Loud', indeed... the SA FS on t'internet etc remids leaders to be careful using LOL as it can mean both!

Alec
03-12-2008, 07:23 PM
Thanks again for your thoughts!

It’s been nice to hear a complete spectrum of comments over the past few days. I’ve been given lots to feel proud of, and lots to think about! Also interesting comparing opinions from Explorers (who have read their parents) and say that they are really proud of what we managed to put across, and opinions from Leaders, who have told me that despite hardly ever reading Scouting magazine, they read this issue from cover to cover!

Section Balance (in content):
tomahawk, flipping back through the articles, I agree that there is a strong tendency towards the older sections. Considering that the younger sections do have the highest membership, I understand that the magazine does need to be more balanced in its focus of articles. In this issue, we were able to put across our perspective on the world, and we did try to explore what the younger sections felt over certain areas too. I will pass on your feedback. Thank you!

In addition, as you said, the ‘wants and needs and fears and concerns are not so different’. Again, it looks as if there really is no generation gap, and we definitely all have common ground. How can adults in general (not just Leaders) talk with young people to lessen the problems they face?

Regional Spread:
A few have mentioned that they have spotted Beavers from their Districts! One of the pointers offered a few months back was to make sure there was a spread of stories from across the country. Did we achieve this? Obviously we were restrained to some extent, as our travel is limited, and a few of us are from the London area. However, some of the editors are from further a field.

Us/Our/We/You:
Bushfella, I agree with your points, and the attitude that we all take as part of a Scouting family, should most defiantly be of respect. None of the articles were intended to cause any offence, and definitely not to any of our leaders. I apologise if this appeared to be the case. When interviewing some Scouts for example, I was focused on looking to the future. Whilst it is always important to review and evaluate the things we do, I think the features of the magazine were mainly looking in a forward direction. Therefore they were not criticising the way in which things have been done, but exploring how they could be done differently. Hopefully this came across as looking forward in a positive light?

Social networking:
big chris, this is one that can cause some controversy yes. I have found the fact sheet to be very clear, although I understand that Leaders will have concerns. For the Explorer section, we were looking at the most effective ways of communication, that suit the Explorers. The ideas put forward in the magazine put this into more detail; but essentially facebook/texting/msn can be very useful for organising things within a Unit. This is not just from personal experience, but from many Units across my County who use varying methods of communication to suit their needs (and from further a field too).

Having helped to run the communicators badge for Scouts at our District’s winter camp last weekend, I was running a base on internet safety for the Scouts. If used according to the Scout Association’s guidelines, it is obviously a very useful tool! (Escouts will obviously have to comply with internet safety aspects, but I’m sure we’d all agree it’s a fantastic resource to have!!!).

Besides, SDSEWBA! :)

Thanks!

BigBadBaloo
03-12-2008, 07:36 PM
.........Besides, SDSEWBA! :)

Thanks!


I can't believe I had to google that! :):)

Dave
03-12-2008, 08:12 PM
Having helped to run the communicators badge for Scouts at our District’s winter camp last weekend, I was running a base on internet safety for the Scouts. If used according to the Scout Association’s guidelines, it is obviously a very useful tool! (Escouts will obviously have to comply with internet safety aspects, but I’m sure we’d all agree it’s a fantastic resource to have!!!).

Besides, SDSEWBA! :)

Thanks!

Escouts is not officially connected in any way to the SA apart from the fact the most forum members are in some way connected to Scouting. Saying that we do endeavour to keep roughly within the guide lines as much as a public forum can do.

Alec
03-12-2008, 08:17 PM
Dave, sorry, I guess I was commenting on something I don't really know about! Yeah, a lot of the internet awareness is etiquette, to minimise mis-understandings.

richardnhunt
03-12-2008, 09:52 PM
This is getting very annoying. :mad:

Everyone seems to have their copy except us chickens in Wing.

Perhaps the postie is holding them back as revenge for the Scout's Christmas Post. :smash:

In desperation I was going to follow the link but that this seems to have been taken out of the thread.

Someone PM it if it's out for copyright reasons.

(Or is this a conspiracy to shut me up!!) :rolleyes:

Me too. My wife has hers but I am obviously not allowed one!

chill man
04-12-2008, 12:28 AM
I am a cub scout leader and really enjoyed the youth issue, I think it did exactly what it said on the tin!! I was expecting a magazine that highlighted the thoughts feeling and wishes of the young people we support, and it did!! Brilliant.

I think there are area's that could be improved, but lets be honest, there are parts like that in every magazine.

Some of the comments on here are a little silly and it clearly demonstrates that people have missed the point!!

I was facinated to hear what young people worry about, what they feel etc.. I have certainly learned that should be 'just seeing how they are' regularly!! It has highlighted to me the need to involve young people more in what I do and I really have found this issue inspirational and I would like to see a couple of pages of each issue deicated to young people helping us to understand more about their world. (and yes I know what its like to be 16, but I don't know what its like to be 16 in december 2008!!)

And to all those people moaning about the 'chip' affair, just get over it!!! It was clearly not meant to upset anybody, so just stop!!!!!!!! I have time to eat before my section meeting, maybe thats because I plan it properly!!!

I also think it's really brave of the young people that wrote it to come on here to defend theirselves (not that they should have to!!)

Dramatist
04-12-2008, 12:48 AM
I can't believe I had to google that! :):)
It's all right, Peter, I had to google it too and having googled it, I haven't the first idea what it means! Yes, I recognise all the words but I haven't a clue what the statement as a whole is on about. Acronyms are silly jokes. If you want people to know what you mean, you avoid them at all costs, so with all sane people avoiding them why should everything be acronyms some day soon? All Jargon (and acronyms) should be avoided in sensible communication at all times!;)

tom_
04-12-2008, 07:50 AM
It's all right, Peter, I had to google it too and having googled it, I haven't the first idea what it means! Yes, I recognise all the words but I haven't a clue what the statement as a whole is on about. Acronyms are silly jokes. If you want people to know what you mean, you avoid them at all costs, so with all sane people avoiding them why should everything be acronyms some day soon? All Jargon (and acronyms) should be avoided in sensible communication at all times!;)

it was actually in the magazine!;)

Bushfella
04-12-2008, 08:36 AM
Us/Our/We/You:
Bushfella, I agree with your points, and the attitude that we all take as part of a Scouting family, should most defiantly be of respect. None of the articles were intended to cause any offence, and definitely not to any of our leaders. I apologise if this appeared to be the case. When interviewing some Scouts for example, I was focused on looking to the future. Whilst it is always important to review and evaluate the things we do, I think the features of the magazine were mainly looking in a forward direction. Therefore they were not criticising the way in which things have been done, but exploring how they could be done differently. Hopefully this came across as looking forward in a positive light?

Alec,

I'm sure that no offence was ever intended, and as an adult I took no offence. However, had my Scouts written in the way that these Scouts did, I would have felt that I was failing them, that I had completely lost touch and I would have resigned.

There was nothing new in this youth issue. All it really did was reinforce the age old stereotypes of them and us, misunderstood angst ridden youth wanting to change the world, and us, tired old folks who don't understand young people. Maybe they should sit and watch "Rebel Without A Cause".

I'm a few years older than when I was a teenager, but when I see kids worrying about their appearance, their friends, their relationships, peer pressure etc.. I cannot help but remember my own youth and the angst and the pains I went through. We've been there, done that got the scars to prove it. There ain't nothing new.

Some of us manage to forget our teen problems, some of us remember them, some of us, trust me, have them impact on our life forever.

My only real criticism of the issue when boiled down to its essence is the sense that young people were given unquestioned voice to their stereotyping; to the idea that we don't understand them. We cannot experience their problems. We can and should be able to - or we have learned nothing from life.

We had this issue at "Scouts" at one time, some rebel came up with the line, "What would you know about it? You can't understand how we feel."

So, we sat down and I said, "Come on, you give me an experience and I'll tell you something about it."

There wasn't a single experience or issue that they came up with that I hadn't also experienced - in fact, on the issue of global problems, I "beat" them, because whilst they talked, I had demonstrated.

One of my ES asked me why I was "so lax" on alcohol. I allow them to drink at specified times on camp, and if they bring alcohol to a party I don't object so long as they don't bring a whole off licence with them.

My response is that I remember what happened when my own teen peer group were told no alcohol and I would rather know what was happening than have them passing out in the bushes drinking from concealed spirit bottles. Only once had an incident with one Scout, that will never be repeated.

My approach is not the same as everyone elses, and I'll warrant that there are people, heck I know some, who were never teenagers themselves. Maybe those people need reminding. I think that's sad.

To quote Dickens, "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way....."

I'm probably labouring my point now, my apologies.

Shaun
04-12-2008, 12:58 PM
I read the magazine, whilst James was climbing.

Like many others I turned to the back page, saw Last Laugh was missing and then went to the front and worked my way through it.

I assumed that the New Year Resolutions were intended to be funny as they replaced the cartoons, but as a Scout should think of others before themself, would've thought they would be a Scout's New year Resolution, eg:

I will try not to arrive too early, but if I do I won't badger Skip for a chip, but will help set up and roll the flag.

I will communicate clearly when speaking or texting and not use accronyms and text speak.

I will try to understand how the leaders feel and how difficult it is to be an adult in 2009, trying to ensure we enjoy our scouting and wading through all the red tape.

Suggest a programme idea that is new, offer to organises and run the activity or organise a debate/discussion about something that is important to you or another member of your patrol (such as your belief's)

:bigsmiley

Other than that I thought it was OK, as a Cub Leader there wasn't much in it for me, but that is what the supplement is for.

I do like Chris's idea of a two side sheet for the YP, it could be part of the supplement, and even better if written by YP for YP, perhaps rotate it round the Counties so we get a different slant each one and not to time consuming for one particular group/person.

big chris
04-12-2008, 01:42 PM
I do like Chris's idea of a two side sheet for the YP, it could be part of the supplement, and even better if written by YP for YP, perhaps rotate it round the Counties so we get a different slant each one and not to time consuming for one particular group/person.

ooo... this is getting interesting...

I think it's time to put this to HQ...

I can really see it working... it can be for all sections... firelighting is as relevant to cubs as it is to network... sweet making is a relevant to scouts as it is to beavers...

It needs to be simple but it must have content... don't say

"why not go climbing...?" have a piece on some useful grips and techniques... (lots of kids don't realise that you can climb on rocks)

don't say "why not start a fire in an unusual way?" but have a piece on making a survival tin in a peppermints tin with different tools to add each month. (Pocket money survival, could be the title)

Tell kids where to look to find the proficiency badges... poss highlighting a different one each month.

We are forever boasting that famous people were scouts.... well, it's about time, they wrote something for the kids to read... David Beckham was a cub and he camped at gilwell... ok... we might not think much of his dress sensem but he has worked hard to get where he is and he can say some inspirational things about teamwork, dedication etc...

It could cover 2 of the programme areas that many of us struggle with... spirituality and international... foreign recipes with interesting tales? (tied in with cooks badge) or maybe a piece on a different religious festival... not schooling... just some helpful facts... it could have prayers (we don't object to native american spiritual stuff so we shouldn't be scared of offering children some example prayers either...) it would be a healthy mix...

My only insistence is that it must be practical and relevant to all scouts... the troops who meet once/ week in a small church hall and do one weekend camp/year must not feel left out by tales of foreign trips and incredible camps...

ooo... brain is churning

craigb
04-12-2008, 02:00 PM
I'm new to :escouts: and it was, in part, due to this edition of the magazine that I registered so that I could join in the discussion.

I'm not generally a fan of the Scout magazine - I often find very little in it (partly I think because it tries to be all things to all people). However, I was extremely impressed by this edition and would offer my congratulations to all those involved.

I understand what people have said about layout, style etc. given that this is primarily a magazine for adults in Scouting, but would have to say that this didn't bother me at all.

There were some excellent views expressed in the magazine about young people's own views of the movement, traditions and current affairs and I think this is to be commended. I'm sure there are many leaders who already communicate very well with their sections and who listen to them. Sadly I know that their are also many who don't - or who have developed a kind of selective hearing!

As a one-off I thought this was an excellent opportunity to hear young-people's points of view. I was particularly intrigued with some of the views about how young-people are perceived and the how instead or relegating faith and beliefs to the same tired old prayers at the end of the evening it can be integrated throughout the programme.

Well done again to all those who participated.

DonTregartha
04-12-2008, 02:24 PM
Having eventually downloaded the mag as I still haven't seen my copy, I won't comment too much on the text as most point s have been made.

What struck me was the design, sure it's funky and 'yoof', but it's a bit ersatz.

This is my subject here so hear me out.

If the 'kids' really wanted to break the mould they could have been experimental with the layout, with the type, the colour.

What we got was the sort of thing that a 50+ year old designer bloke like me does when they're 'down with the kids'

All that masking tape and wonky boxes, street pics, distressed type.

I've got a job on my desk at this moment in time that's for a student magazine, and that's the sort of thing they'll get. :rolleyes:

I wonder if the kids really laid it out or was it the 'old folks' with their heavy hand.

It's all a bit 'created by adults for young people'.

Chris Lambert
04-12-2008, 02:36 PM
I have time to eat before my section meeting, maybe thats because I plan it properly!!!

Err, of course. Everyone who rushes to get from work to their section meeting and doesn't have time to eat hasn't planned properly.

I could plan better to be able to get home to eat - but we'd have to change the start time to 8:30 and I suspect most parents would think 10:30 too late to finish with school the next day.

tomahawk
04-12-2008, 04:15 PM
I wonder if we turned it on its head, would the youngsters have read it and understood?

So an issue that tells them...

SOmetimes leaders have had an awful day. They've rushed down to the hut without feeding their own kids, they've had a row with a supplier at work, the overdraft is growing by the minute, Lord knows how they are going to afford Christmas, the dog is sick, the cat threw up on the kitchen floor as they were leaving, their partner has flu, their kids are going through SATS and GCSEs.......

And You Lot ARe The Only Thing Keeping Us Going SOme Days.

Dave
04-12-2008, 08:43 PM
I wonder if we turned it on its head, would the youngsters have read it and understood?

So an issue that tells them...

SOmetimes leaders have had an awful day. They've rushed down to the hut without feeding their own kids, they've had a row with a supplier at work, the overdraft is growing by the minute, Lord knows how they are going to afford Christmas, the dog is sick, the cat threw up on the kitchen floor as they were leaving, their partner has flu, their kids are going through SATS and GCSEs.......

And You Lot ARe The Only Thing Keeping Us Going SOme Days.

That is one good idea :thup:

_becky_
04-12-2008, 09:47 PM
Hi Everyone,

To be 100% honest, I haven't read every single post here, so if I unintentionally offend someone then I do apologise!!
For those of you who don't know (the name does give it away someone) I'm Becky, one of the editing team...

First off...the chips comment was intended as a light hearted suggestion, not a serious complaint!
Secondly, I agree that we should have kept the last laugh, but it was an experiment, we were never going to do everything right!
I appreciate that many adults could easily find the layout, text, colours etc irritating...I think the idea was that we wanted it to stand out as being different, admittedly may not have been the most practical idea, but you cannot deny it was obviously our edition!

If you found the articles to be patronising, or telling you things you already know then personally I imagine you are one of 2 groups of people:
1) Very experienced leaders, who communicate well with young people and often take time to investigate what they think and how they feel, in which case congratulations and I apologise for wasting your time.
2) The kind of person we aimed this magazine at, who thinks they're doing everything right, knows what young people want but actually is really out of touch. I'm a Young Leader, and both my parents are Leaders, and believe me when I say that I do know how much work you all put in, and how our articles could be interpreted as whiney, however we honestly were trying to get across the message that young people FEEL (whether this is the reality or not) that they aren't listened to and respected. Possibly if you feel you are doing many of our suggestions (or a similar equivalent) already, then you need to make sure that your Young People can see this.

Finally I would just like to say that we did work hard on this magazine, and we're all really proud of it! We were never going to please everyone (and probably even less on this forum, as the vast majority of :escouts:members are more experienced leaders) but I hope we did at least make some people think, which was all we ever intended!

Becky :)

Chris Neal 2008
04-12-2008, 11:45 PM
I wonder if the kids really laid it out or was it the 'old folks' with their heavy hand.

It's all a bit 'created by adults for young people'.
We Had complete control over everything... When the front into page was put to us... it was the normal layout... We thought of the Wonky masking page effect...


Hi Everyone,

To be 100% honest, I haven't read every single post here, so if I unintentionally offend someone then I do apologise!!
For those of you who don't know (the name does give it away someone) I'm Becky, one of the editing team...

First off...the chips comment was intended as a light hearted suggestion, not a serious complaint!
Secondly, I agree that we should have kept the last laugh, but it was an experiment, we were never going to do everything right!
I appreciate that many adults could easily find the layout, text, colours etc irritating...I think the idea was that we wanted it to stand out as being different, admittedly may not have been the most practical idea, but you cannot deny it was obviously our edition!

If you found the articles to be patronising, or telling you things you already know then personally I imagine you are one of 2 groups of people:
1) Very experienced leaders, who communicate well with young people and often take time to investigate what they think and how they feel, in which case congratulations and I apologise for wasting your time.
2) The kind of person we aimed this magazine at, who thinks they're doing everything right, knows what young people want but actually is really out of touch. I'm a Young Leader, and both my parents are Leaders, and believe me when I say that I do know how much work you all put in, and how our articles could be interpreted as whiney, however we honestly were trying to get across the message that young people FEEL (whether this is the reality or not) that they aren't listened to and respected. Possibly if you feel you are doing many of our suggestions (or a similar equivalent) already, then you need to make sure that your Young People can see this.

Finally I would just like to say that we did work hard on this magazine, and we're all really proud of it! We were never going to please everyone (and probably even less on this forum, as the vast majority of :escouts:members are more experienced leaders) but I hope we did at least make some people think, which was all we ever intended!

Becky :)

Just agreeing with Becky on this one... As another member of the Editiing team... Im Chris By the way!
We started the magazine in August... along side weekly things.. school work.. uni work.. ect ect. As a team we worked hard... and i would just like to think that if you saw nothing from the magazine then fine, cool, no problems...
But even if you discovered one thing, thought diffrently about something else... then Wicked, great...
We had a readership number of 100,000 people...
we tried to make it a magazine with "Youth Issues and thoughts"... and thats what we thought!

Another point is that the Young people in scouting are the future... and ok you may not think the magazine is great... but some things that people have had issues with in the magazine e.g chips, are quite petty really?!?!
Surely the main issue is that the Young People and Adults Leaders work together to resolve any issues with the program/Group/unit to make it work and enjoyment for both Adults and Young people as if either side lack enjoyment... then they will not continue...

Raksha
05-12-2008, 09:22 AM
Another point is that the Young people in scouting are the future...

but some things that people have had issues with in the magazine e.g chips, are quite petty really?!?!

for both Adults and Young people as if either side lack enjoyment... then they will not continue...

Chris, I have picked out the bits that I want to comment on, I think that you are quite right when you say that the Young People in Scouting are the future, a quick look at the poll I put up about how you got involved shows that. I don't think you will find any argument from anybody here about that.

some things that people had issues with are quite petty. Thats fine, but sometimes it is the petty little things that really cause the big problems, they are the straw that breaks the camels back. For those of us who have had a rubbish day/week and who have rushed to our meeting without eating or even getting a meal ready for the rest of the family, to have it suggested that perhaps we share our chips is just one of those final straws for some of us.
For example, I organised my work schedule around Scouts, I don't normally work on a Friday, so spend the day catching up on a myriad of things, trying to arrange stuff for the evening, or a few weeks ahead, on the day if I have to go into work for some reason my schedule is completely out of kilter. Then throw in a family crisis (happened a month ago) and I nearly didn't make Scouts at all, but I got there - if someone had suggested to me (if I had had the time to pick up food) that I share it that night, I would have walked right out the door again.
You are right when you say that if Adults and YP are not enjoying it then they will leave, it is petty comments that can cause the Adults to leave because that was the final straw!

Alec
05-12-2008, 07:46 PM
Don’t worry folks, I’m in the same boat; haven’t received my copy yet! (…and my Dad’s is now so thumbed, that I need a new copy!)

I’m sorry, but TSA is all about acronyms! Where would we be without our GSL’s, MDM’s, ABSL’s, ASP’s, ACC’s, BSL’s, ADC’s… Acronyms are our speciality!:thup:

Bushfella, thanks for your response, it’s a shame to hear that you feel there was nothing new in this issue. A few people on here have said that the problems faced by young people today are the same or similar to the problems they were faced with at our age. Surely if the right steps are taken today, we can prevent the next generations of young people going through the same pains? I hope that this issue of Scouting has helped to provoke some thought on how we can achieve this?

Shaun, the New Years Resolutions were not intended to be funny, but rather some summary points from the topics addressed in the magazine. You will be able to spot some ‘action points’ throughout the pages of the magazine; I think these are particularly important as the issue is meant to be a proactive project. Personally, I never took a literal approach to the chip issue, but I have found parallels in what I do as a Young Leader.

big chris, I definitely agree that it would be great to have more ‘celebs’ talking positively about Scouting. I think that when public figures such as David Beckham have been approached in the past, they have not always wanted to get involved. With so many prominent figures having had Scouting experiences, hopefully there will be some more ambassadors soon!

I was interested to read that you think spirituality is a programme area that a lot of Leaders struggle with. Did the ‘Big Issue’ page of the magazine help to give any ideas?

(Similarly for international, I loved the Beaver piece in ‘Everyday Adventures’, that has given me some ideas!)

tomahawk and Dave, as I mentioned earlier in the topic, communication within the movement definitely has to be a two way thing! I was wondering how long it would be until we were given some new years resolutions, if Leaders are up to the challenge of ours, then why not go two-ways?

Thanks all!

DonTregartha
14-12-2008, 05:03 PM
Am I the only Scouter in the UK that didn't get their copy of this edition?

richardnhunt
14-12-2008, 06:01 PM
Me too. Will phone gilwell in the morning.

Rich

Ashbourne_Akela
14-12-2008, 06:12 PM
I didn't get mine, so I emailed HQ and it arrived wo days later in a brown envelope.

I have to say I could only really tell the difference in the layout with all the post-it-note thingies everywhere. It didn't bother me overly, just a bit annoying. Had I not read the comments from the guys on here I would have been abit annoyed by some of the presumptions that were made, especially, and probably the most controversial comment, about the chips thing! I understand the spirit in which the comment was made but even knowing about it didn't stop me being annoyed by reading it! The amount of time and effort involved in providing three nights a week means that at least two nights I eat on the run, usually in-between Scouting and work and away from my OH, so I'm sorry, I'm not about to share my tea with kids wo have probably already eaten a meal that their mothers have cooked for them.
The articles weren't in-depth enough and there was practically nothing for anyone under the age of 11 so very little to interest me I'm afraid.
Good try though.

nele
14-12-2008, 08:27 PM
Did anyone else get the network supplement by mistake? I normally get the scout one and hubby gets the cub one, this time we both got Network. I presume this was a mistake or maybe they realise we now have 2 network age children?

astwood7
14-12-2008, 09:53 PM
Did anyone else get the network supplement by mistake? I normally get the scout one and hubby gets the cub one, this time we both got Network. I presume this was a mistake or maybe they realise we now have 2 network age children?

I got the network supplement - thought they had mixed up me and my daughter but she had the network supplement as well. I looked at the Scout supplement online and decided I hadn't missed much

Mad dog
15-12-2008, 04:24 PM
I got the network supplement - thought they had mixed up me and my daughter but she had the network supplement as well. I looked at the Scout supplement online and decided I hadn't missed much

I didn't get mine yet either!! It's on it's way now apprently...

When I e-mailed the info centre they said there had been a few problems as they have just changed printers, so perhaps that's how the supplement mix-up has come about. Sounds like just some teething problems.

big chris
15-12-2008, 04:33 PM
rather than moaning on here that you got the network supplement...

have you told TSA? their mailing house should give them some money back...

it could be any number of reasons...

-TSA got their databases wrong and put lots of people down as network,
-The printers got the print run wrong and printed too many of that supplement and not enough of the others
-The mailing house messed up and mixed up the databases

if it's either of the last 2, TSA can get something back from their suppliers... if it's the first one... oops... a database manager will be hauled over the coals... especially if they sold circualtion specific advertising! (they'll have to refund their advertisers if they find out about it... d'oh)

PeterSheppard
15-12-2008, 05:50 PM
oops... a database manager

LOL :rolling_s

You are joking, right? TSA... database manager? ROFL

LeafyLion
15-12-2008, 05:58 PM
rather than moaning on here that you got the network supplement...

have you told TSA? their mailing house should give them some money back...

it could be any number of reasons...

-TSA got their databases wrong and put lots of people down as network,
-The printers got the print run wrong and printed too many of that supplement and not enough of the others
-The mailing house messed up and mixed up the databases

if it's either of the last 2, TSA can get something back from their suppliers... if it's the first one... oops... a database manager will be hauled over the coals... especially if they sold circualtion specific advertising! (they'll have to refund their advertisers if they find out about it... d'oh)


Your assuming TSA is run like a business, if only it was, it might be in a better position today than it is.

MikeJ
15-12-2008, 10:43 PM
It could be worth checking on mybackpack that your supplement is correct on there, just in case.

Pedge
15-12-2008, 10:51 PM
A possitive comment on the layout and look-and-feel:

My friend's 14 month old daughter LOVED the colours and all the photographs :)

apparently they taste nice too as I am now the owner of a thouroughly chewed magazine

big chris
15-12-2008, 11:07 PM
LOL :rolling_s

You are joking, right? TSA... database manager? ROFL

surely there must be one...??

big chris
15-12-2008, 11:08 PM
Your assuming TSA is run like a business, if only it was, it might be in a better position today than it is.

1) it's a legitimate assumption and the many corporate tie-ins, glossy publications etc plus insurance coverage etc etc suggests it is

2) if it isn't... Twine etc do not deserve their salary and can get knotted...

Chris Neal 2008
15-12-2008, 11:58 PM
1) it's a legitimate assumption and the many corporate tie-ins, glossy publications etc plus insurance coverage etc etc suggests it is

The Magazine Article are Managed by Gilwell Offices, and the advertising is done by the company who produce the magazine...

The posting and packing is handled by another company... Any issues.. Wether be not receviing the magazine or Wrong Suppliment... Contact Gilwell info centre and check your supiliment on the "My Backpack"

nele
16-12-2008, 11:54 AM
I let the info centre know that we'd had the wrong supplements, and I got this reply
'There was an issue with the distribution of the Scouting Magazine this time, due to us using a new firm of printers. Hopefully this won't happen again.'

As Id also mentioned that we'd given my son the network supplement to read, they also nicely offered to send us that too in future, if we provide his membership number.

fmolesey
16-12-2008, 12:10 PM
I am a young leader but I don't get the magazine. I read somewhere that YLs could now get the magazine. Is this true?

Also are YLs supposed to have a membership number??

Sorry don't no anything about this :P.

Cheers,

big chris
16-12-2008, 12:17 PM
I let the info centre know that we'd had the wrong supplements, and I got this reply
'There was an issue with the distribution of the Scouting Magazine this time, due to us using a new firm of printers. Hopefully this won't happen again.'

As Id also mentioned that we'd given my son the network supplement to read, they also nicely offered to send us that too in future, if we provide his membership number.

bingo! so the new printers are now in the doodoo with their new client and will have to do a deal to keep them sweet..

excellent

Keith at 2M
16-12-2008, 03:32 PM
If you found the articles to be patronising, or telling you things you already know then personally I imagine you are one of 2 groups of people:
1) Very experienced leaders, who communicate well with young people and often take time to investigate what they think and how they feel, in which case congratulations and I apologise for wasting your time.

2) The kind of person we aimed this magazine at, who thinks they're doing everything right, knows what young people want but actually is really out of touch. I'm a Young Leader, and both my parents are Leaders, and believe me when I say that I do know how much work you all put in, and how our articles could be interpreted as whiney, however we honestly were trying to get across the message that young people FEEL (whether this is the reality or not) that they aren't listened to and respected. Possibly if you feel you are doing many of our suggestions (or a similar equivalent) already, then you need to make sure that your Young People can see this.


If nothing else this thread has got everyone debating like no other. Whatever our view of young people the fact remains that their perception is that there are large numbers of us 'oldies' that are viewed as being out of touch. We're never going to get this completely right but thinking about the whole issue this is actually good grounding for adult leadership.

I regularly attend meetings where I'm convinced that people aren't listening to a word I'm saying. I still come into contact with many leaders that I consider are old and out of touch. I've got 29 years of leadership behind me but on occasions I'm still treated like the 'new boy' whose opinion doesn't count because he didn't grow up with BP. The lack of respect for other leaders' views is almost embarassing at some District Meetings. So YP, don't take our attitude personally, it doesn't get any better when you are older!

The only comment that has really angered me in this thread is suggesting that I should be better organised in order to have a meal before Cubs. Sometimes its not easy to ask clients to rearrange their schedules to fit in with my Cub Pack. I try but there is a real World outside of scouting that actually has to come first if we are to feed our families and keep a roof over our heads.

To return to the thread however, it is great to see that we have so many enthusiastic YP in the movement and I offer tham all my congratulations - please don't take the comments to heart. Its also really good that they have been prepared to stand up and be counted here....... and yes, you may be the future of scouting, but so are the rest of us, we're just a few years closer to becomming the past.

wealdbrook
16-12-2008, 07:01 PM
I am a young leader but I don't get the magazine. I read somewhere that YLs could now get the magazine. Is this true?

Also are YLs supposed to have a membership number??

Sorry don't no anything about this :P.

Cheers,

Hi there - I believe it is a plan but it is not there yet! Until the new "My Backpack" I was adding my District YLs on so that they had a membership number and could access POL - however they don't seem to get Scouting Plus or Scouting Magazine (boo hoo!).

With the latest version I have stopped doing that because I can't edit their records until my District appointment comes through - the security has been tightened.

I suggest that all YLs start to pester Gilwell to be able to get Scouting - especially since YP were allowed to edit the magazine.

:banana:

matt1st
31-12-2008, 10:24 AM
that's the daftness... it is a whizz bang super modern jazzy magazine with wild fonts and clashing colours... but the readership is almost entirely leaders...

it rather misses the point...


i even gave my wifes copy (i didnt recieve mine) to my patrol leaders and they thought is was still boring and hard going.

1stbritannia
22-01-2009, 11:47 PM
how does this arrive?

shiftypete
24-01-2009, 09:05 PM
In the post

Chris Neal 2008
24-01-2009, 10:51 PM
Also can be view on scouts.org

PeterSheppard
03-02-2009, 10:41 PM
Erm, isn't the Feb/Mar issue now a little late...?

Alec
04-02-2009, 06:36 AM
I hate to blame everything on the snow, but I was guessing that that was why our copy hadn't arrived. I've seen it in print already though, so I'm sure they're on their way!

EDIT: You're just eager to see it because you want to flip to the back and see if the Last Laugh has returned! :tong:

astwood7
04-02-2009, 11:00 AM
mine arrived in the post today - first post this week

EwanM
05-02-2009, 04:50 PM
Got mine last week, so still in January.

Daniel
05-02-2009, 09:33 PM
There is a thread about the new Scouting Magazine (The Big Adventure Feb/March 2009) here http://www.escouts.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=9526