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Thread: CRB advice

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    Senior Member Tazmania's Avatar
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    Angry CRB advice

    Hi out there!

    I am in the throes of organising summer camp for our group on a Roman theme and have the local Reenactment group keen to visit for the last afternoon/evening.

    We are planning having a battle followed by a Roman style BBQ/feast/ campfire, which we are inviting the gladiators to stay for, as they are local guys and well known in the town

    My question is, as they will be in close proximity to the kids, do I need to CRB all the gladiators, or can I assume, as they do public displays, National trust and English heritage stuff, that they are worthy citizens.

    I actually don't believe in the CRB system, as it only picks up on folk who have been previously investigated/convicted, not those who are very cunning at hiding their obscene behaviours

    Any advice gratefully received

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    Cub Leader Baloo Doug's Avatar
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    You may find that they are already CRB cleared, especially as they put on Public Displays for the likes of National trust and English heritage. If so you should be OK, It should be just like taking them to a musuem or simlar pace where all the staff are or should be CRB checked

    Like you I don't really agree with the CRB system for the same reasons

    Hope this is of some help.
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    SL, AGSL, TA, NAA curtisuk's Avatar
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    do a risk assesment of the event / time they are with you and what would you have to do if they did not have CRB

    questions to ask
    are they going to be left aloan with the YP
    do you have enoght CRB'd leaders and helpers to keep an eye on the YP
    ask the Reenactment group have they been CRB'd
    ask for there risk assesment as if they do public displays they should have one.
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    Diversity Ambassador Lynn-Cubs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo Doug View Post
    You may find that they are already CRB cleared, especially as they put on Public Displays for the likes of National trust and English heritage. If so you should be OK, It should be just like taking them to a musuem or simlar pace where all the staff are or should be CRB checked

    Like you I don't really agree with the CRB system for the same reasons

    Hope this is of some help.
    I'm a re-enactor as some of you know. I don't know these groups, but from my own experience:

    Don't assume anything, those involved in re-enacting come from every walk of life, and once in historical dress they tend to blend in to one.

    Re-enactors like to drink, and although this is often round a family camp fire where children are involved responsibly, this is not always the case.

    Re-enactors often have photographers within their groups, and photography can be a big part of the 'dressing up and looking tough' side of the hobby. Be aware of unknown photographers.


    How closely can you monitor the children under your care around strangers, I would very much doubt that these people do have CRB's. It is not the norm for re-enactment groups that I know of.

    Remember that re-enactors are volunteers. You may ask for a specific number to present a battle etc. but often the organisers don't know who will actually turn up until they walk into your camp. Whatever you agree, be specific and get it in writing, I cannot stress this enough.

    Have a fantastic time and I'm sure it will all go well.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Is there the potential for close contact?

    If the answer is yes then they need a CRB check. You MAY accept the other organisation's CRB compliance on a one off basis. But you can never be sure.

    As for disgreeing with the CRB system, what do you suggest as an alternative, good old peer monitoring, perhaps? We all know how well that has worked over the years.

    CRB is the best option that we have, so until something better comes along, let's work with it but be aware that it only picks up the ones who have already been caught.
    Ewan Scott

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    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    I suspect if you ask them to do CRBS most of them wont want to the faff and just wont turn up to the event.

    Just make sure they dont have unsupervised access to the YP (ie dont let them camp overnight on the same field).

    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

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    Diversity Ambassador Lynn-Cubs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    (ie dont let them camp overnight on the same field).
    It's not always that easy, I have been at events where 'no camping' has been ignored. There may also be a situation where someone has too much to drink and can't drive home.

    Also what about someone who wraps themselves up in their very practical, authentic clothing (which is of course what the clothes were designed to be very good at) and simply goes to sleep where they sit round the fire.

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    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn-Cubs View Post
    It's not always that easy, I have been at events where 'no camping' has been ignored. There may also be a situation where someone has too much to drink and can't drive home.

    Also what about someone who wraps themselves up in their very practical, authentic clothing (which is of course what the clothes were designed to be very good at) and simply goes to sleep where they sit round the fire.
    1. Impose a no alcohol on site rule. That solves a significant part of the problem and the re-enactment people don't need to know whether on a normal night on camp the leaders have a few beers or not...

    2. Inform them that because of the child protection rules they need to be off site by a given time.

    I'm assuming that you're camping on a scout campsite, and as such have the authority to make sure that people who you dont want to stay over can't stay over.

    I can't help feeling that people are taking the whole CRB issue a bit too far these days. People assume they are a foolproof way of protecting children (which they arent) and that the risk to children is much higher than it really is.

    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

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    Grey but not that old Alfbranch's Avatar
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    I find it amazing what people believe makes them or thier YP safe.

    What kind of safegaurd is being on a different field or being on a Scout campsite as I see at as offering very little indeed or do the camping fields you use have security fences and locked gates.

    My local Scout Camp (county run) has a footpath through it and accepts anyone (CRB or not) as part of the terms of the lottery grant recieved. I have been there when a group of police officers and thier families were on site and they were awful to share the site with.

    I agree with Ewan on the CRB issue BTW.
    Alf

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    GSL/ESL(YL)/TA Mark W's Avatar
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    Deterrence

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    ..but be aware that it only picks up the ones who have already been caught.
    ...and, in addition, deters those with something to hide....that's not a bad thing.
    If it was easy, it wouldn't be so much fun...
    GSL 1st Aylburton & Lydney, TA, ESL(YL), District Campsite Warden & webmanager .....only 1 hour a week, they said (not pointing out that was what was left)

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I suspect if you ask them to do CRBS most of them wont want to the faff and just wont turn up to the event.
    We have had absolutely no problem with CRBs. Never had anyone refuse, and had several actually ask for them.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    Senior Member dasy2k1's Avatar
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    if they are staying on the campsite i would require that they are on a separate field
    also i would ask if they are CRBed and ask them to bring their copy of the disclosure form with them if possible (all the re-enactors i have worked with have multiple CRBs and are quite happy to show them)
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    Senior Member Tazmania's Avatar
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    Good call(s). Thanks guys. I have been in touch with the group and they are recruiting, so will be putting CRBs into their application packs.

    I think the idea of having an off site by a certain time rule and NO BOOZE (which I don't approve of anyway on Cub camp BTW), should be more than acceptable. Will ask re the risk assessment though.

    You guys keep me sane!!

    ----------------
    The Following Was Added to the post within 60 minutes of posting the above
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    Also re the CRB thing, I had to be a whistleblower once, on a leader who was abusing her own kids. She had been through appointment commitees for both Scouts and Salvation Army and she was part way thru leader training before we knew.

    So I am a bit sceptical, sorry....
    Last edited by Tazmania; 06-04-2010 at 05:30 PM. Reason: Merged Double Post

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazmania View Post

    I actually don't believe in the CRB system, as it only picks up on folk who have been previously investigated/convicted, not those who are very cunning at hiding their obscene behaviours
    if leaders believe that CRBs are all that is required to keep kids safe, they are dangerous and should ve re-educated urgently.

    if, on the other hand, we see it as the first part of a never ending process of safeguarding to keep kids safe and to keep us safe too then the system, is working just fine.

    It's not perfect. OTOH, It must surely deter those with records from applying? it's a simplistic but useful gatekeeper.

    ----------------
    The Following Was Added to the post within 60 minutes of posting the above
    ---------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazmania View Post
    Also re the CRB thing, I had to be a whistleblower once, on a leader who was abusing her own kids. She had been through appointment commitees for both Scouts and Salvation Army and she was part way thru leader training before we knew.

    So I am a bit sceptical, sorry....
    sceptical about what?

    abuse happens. we try to be alert to it. We try to run everything by the book and thereby hope that anybody who operates outside the book is more obvious than otherwise.

    To explain this point further: I know that I will never do anything evil to a child so why do I go out of my way to keep doors open? why do i take another leader with me to check on the tents? why do i bring little johnny's mate with him to do first aid on him when it'd bne far easier to do it one on one?

    We all know why. Because CRB is not the end of our procedures, it's the start. i want an adult who joins my group to have to act far outside the norm if he or she wants to do evil to my children and i want it to be strikingly obvious.

    CRB is just the start. It's not been sold as more than that. ever.
    Last edited by big chris; 06-04-2010 at 05:41 PM. Reason: Merged Double Post

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    Senior Member Tazmania's Avatar
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    Well...

    Personally I have been involved in Scouting for over 20 years, as a venture, young leader ACSL, BSL and now ACSL again due to work commitments. I meet people from all walks of life through my job and am very open minded about people's lifestyle choice and how they choose to spend their leisure time.

    I just get very angry knowing that we are put in a position of ENORMOUS trust ie the care of other peoples most precious possessions (or so they should be) and there are folks out there who deliberately join the movement to gain access to youngsters so they can abuse them.

    Of COURSE I follow all the child protection rules and, like yourself Big Chris, go above and beyond the norm to keep the kids in my care safe. But unless you have been in that situation yourself, with Social Services, the Police, Gilwell's own CPT and God knows who else, it is quite hard to comment on.

    My biggest shock came when I called my county CP advisor, as the district one was on holiday at the time and filled her in on the details of the case and my concerns. As soon as I told her the woman was, in fact, a uniformed leader and we suspected her of abusing her own kids, she seemed to imply I was imagining it!! This was despite having witnessed the woman in question IN UNIFORM outside our HQ, with her hands around the throat of her son, bodily lifting him up against the wall of the HQ.

    HE WAS TERRIFIED and had soiled himself in fear. I went directly to social services, as I did not feel the SA was supporting me or my other ABSL, who was devastated. They had had concerns from the child's school, childminder and a concerned neighbour. The outcome was horrific as far as I am concerned - I received threatening letters, anonymous phonecalls and I believe we were followed when we took the Beavers to the park later that year.

    The kids are still on the child protection register and my group was closed down.

    It was over 6 years ago now, I have moved out of that county and have only just had my faith restored in the movement.

    So I think I am allowed to be a little antsy, don't you?

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