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Thread: 2 explorers in a relationship, then 1 turns 18...

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    2 explorers in a relationship, then 1 turns 18...

    OK, I'm looking here for what the actual rules here are, I know my opinion but that is pretty irrelevant, I also need to know where I stand.

    So 2 of ours explorers are in relationship, have been for a while, one of the explorers is a young leader at my cub group. This explorer has just turned 18, the other is 17 just turned, this explorer would like to stay at the explorer group as a leader. I understand this is not possible and against rules.

    I'm also now being told that this explorer can not take out an appointment with my cub group if still in a relationship with the explorer. This I don't understand, the cub group is nothing at all to do with the explorers. So is this the actual case?

    I've explained my cub group circumstances on here before, and for me to loose this leader makes my life running the group very hard as this would be leader is absolutely brilliant and I don't know if I could run the group without them.

    Can someone clarify this for me please?

    Thank you!
    _________________________
    Jen
    BSL/CSL/AESL/attempting to do my queen scout and gold DofE!

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    ive seen it before, and he became the explorer leader, nuff said im not important enough to pass judgement or make decisions on that

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    Just out of interest how many months apart are they? Because they say 17.5 is the moving on period so if the person is older than 17 and a half then surely everything is a ok there?

    So I just re-read the post and missed the vital age fact so ignore my original comment. It's a complicated situation and I know there's guidelines in place and such like for a reason but in my opinion scouting is all about volunteering... So their gonna loose a volunteer because of a relationship and age limits?

    It's either the two people leave scouting to follow their relationship?
    or they split to keep scouting?

    As long as the explorer doesn't go to the cub meetings then everything should be okay. Common sense states this and doesn't need rules and relegations to dictate this?

    You could post this question to Wayne and ask for advice as I'm sure there's many people with similar circumstances...
    Last edited by Chopwell's yeti; 18-11-2010 at 10:35 PM.

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    Senior Member Walsallwizard's Avatar
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    Difficult to comment on a confusing post, I would suggest you have a chat with your GSL, DC & CC and find a way to make things work.
    Richard Fenton
    CSL 1st Hartburn Sea Scouts (Graham Mellanby's Own)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jen View Post
    OK, I'm looking here for what the actual rules here are, I know my opinion but that is pretty irrelevant, I also need to know where I stand.

    So 2 of ours explorers are in relationship, have been for a while, one of the explorers is a young leader at my cub group. This explorer has just turned 18, the other is 17 just turned, this explorer would like to stay at the explorer group as a leader. I understand this is not possible and against rules.

    I'm also now being told that this explorer can not take out an appointment with my cub group if still in a relationship with the explorer. This I don't understand, the cub group is nothing at all to do with the explorers. So is this the actual case?

    I've explained my cub group circumstances on here before, and for me to loose this leader makes my life running the group very hard as this would be leader is absolutely brilliant and I don't know if I could run the group without them.

    Can someone clarify this for me please?

    Thank you!
    I beleive that there is some guidance that an adult cannot be in a relationship with a youth member. BUT in this instance there is a possibillity that it is OK if it is kept separate from Scouting.

    To that end I beleive that again there is guidance which dictates it is a good idea that the adult and youth do not work together - so the adult cannot become a Leader of the unit in which the youth is in.

    But also the adult cannot become a Leader in which the youth is a YL.

    So if you wish to retain the adult as a Leader you need to get the YL to work in another section or Group.

    I have seen this in writing but it was guidance and cannot remember where it was.

    In my opinion it is good guidance

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    GSL/ESL(YL)/TA Mark W's Avatar
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    Adult v YP

    It's quite simple over 18 - adult, under 18 = young person. TSA rules are quite clear about relationships and yellow card issues. Just apply the rules. Any attempt to rationalise or "fudge it" is not worth it.
    If it was easy, it wouldn't be so much fun...
    GSL 1st Aylburton & Lydney, TA, ESL(YL), District Campsite Warden & webmanager .....only 1 hour a week, they said (not pointing out that was what was left)

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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    First question - who is telling you that this young person cannot take out an appointment as an ACSL?

    According to POR - The Appointment Process the line manager is responsible for recommending an applicant for an appointment (d(i)) to go forward to the District AAC, and according to table 1 in that section the GSL is the line manager for section leaders and assistant section leaders. (In the absence of a GSL – the DC assumes the GSL’s responsibilities).

    It would seem to me that if the GSL/DC has told you this, you are between a rock and a hard place, as your potential ACSL has in effect fallen at the first hurdle, as the GSL/DC is hardly like to support his application (I know that is probably not fair or just - just my reading of the situation and POR. After all, if it were an 18 year old outside of Scouting who wanted to be an ACSL the question of any relationships that they were involved in would be unlikely to be raised).

    If it is anyone other than the GSL/DC who has told you this I would, as politely as possible, ask them what business it is of theirs who is and is not appointed at your group.
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


    A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. Lao Tzu (600 BC - 531 BC)

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    SL, AGSL, TA, NAA curtisuk's Avatar
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    I have had to deal with this one 17 one 18 and going out and they had been going out for a few years before and are now in there 20's and are still going out even now.
    In my case every leader knew they are an item and have been for a while. all I did was have a quiet chat with them advised of the situation and when they are at a scouting activity act as if not a couple.
    as they are both of age it is not illegal and as they have been going out for a long while before one of them turned 18 then it is not an issue.

    however if an 18 year old plus leader came in to the group and started a relationship with a 17 year old explorer then that could be an issue.
    but you would have to look at each relationship and make a judgement call on all the facts.
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    Well, two Explorers forming a romantic relationship is hardly unusual and it is inevitable that one will turn 18 before the other. So if they both wish to remain in Scouting … do they “split up” (and, if they are careful at Scouting events and as both are likely to be living with parents how the heck does an “outsider” judge if they are still in a relationship or “just good friends”!) or does one of them leave Scouting for a time?

    This is, I think quite a different situation to an adult in Scouting starting a relationship with a youth member.

    Common sense here says neither. The Yellow Card talks about “abuse of trust” and I think that is where judgement calls have to be made – with consideration given to the age gap, the length of the relationship and the maturity of those involved. I certainly wouldn’t want to put the two into a situation where they felt it necessary to “conceal” their relationship.

    So… in answer to the OP question, I wouldn’t have an ACSL in the same Pack as a YL whom they were involved with. But as this doesn’t appear to be the case, I see no reason at all why the older one can’t be a leader in the Cub Pack.

    Interestingly, one of my YLs was in a similar position – 12 month gap between the 2 of them, going out for a year before the first turned 18 and became an ASL. As both did most of their Scouting in different Districts it wasn’t a problem on a week to week basis, but there were some trips/camps/events where both attended. Certainly when on Cub events they were immensely mature and there were no inappropriate “public displays of affection”. Sleeping accommodation was separate on Cub Camps.

    Said YL turned 18 a fortnight ago – problem solved!
    Kate, CSL (and GDB(S))
    1st Weald Brook Scout Group
    Brentwood, Essex
    www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    This is one of the most difficult concepts for young people to get their heads around. It is quite common to have relationships across a pretty wide age range and most young people cannot understand that we have no say in what goes on between two people one under 18 and one over 18 if they are both involved with Scouting, and one is a Leader.

    There is absolutely no reason why the 18 year old cannot become a Cub Leader (ACSL or CSL). Equally, there is no reason, on paper, why he/she cannot become an AESL/ESL ( there are practical issues even disregarding the relationship).

    (There may be other issues that the GSL/DC has with the situation which we don't know about and you may not be seeing.)

    However, as an ESL, he CANNOT continue his relationship with the under 18 year old Explorer as he has entered a position of Trust.

    So, why is that an issue? After all, many 16 and 17 year olds are in relationships with 18 plus aged partners.

    Well, simply, because the Law says that we can't. It is potentially a breach of a position of trust.

    It's tough, but that's the way it goes.

    Worst case scenario, bad break up, the younger partner gets all vindictive, makes accusations and at 18+, irrespective of the validity of those allegations, the other partner's life is put on hold for the duration of any investigation. It may be days, it may be months depending upon the individual circumstances.

    That is why after a couple of bad experiences with Explorers in relationships that I have made it perfectly clear that they keep any relationships out of Scouting. It doesn't actually address the situation the OP has, but it mitigates the impact.
    Ewan Scott

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    Senior Member stevelinton's Avatar
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    Seems like the issue is "position of trust" and the hard question is does such a position exist between an ACSL and a YL in the pack. MY suspicion, unfortunately, is yes, although you should probably check with Info Centre (this must have happened before).

    I suspect that you may have to cope with just one of them at cubs until the younger one turns 18, but you mgiht be able to get away with it, if it's made very clear that the YL is managed and supported by the CSL, not by her boyfriend. Maybe if he could be on the records as a pack assistant, rather than ACSL for the first year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevelinton View Post
    Maybe if he could be on the records as a pack assistant, rather than ACSL for the first year?
    You still have one adult and 1 yp working in the same section who are in a relationship.

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    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    Did I miss something, I thought the original post said that only one of the Explorers was a YL in the cub section, in which case there should be no issue with that YL becoming an ACSL and there is no risk of the two "working" together.
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
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    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

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    Member David Symons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jen View Post
    OK, I'm looking here for what the actual rules here are, I know my opinion but that is pretty irrelevant, I also need to know where I stand.

    So 2 of ours explorers are in relationship, have been for a while, one of the explorers is a young leader at my cub group. This explorer has just turned 18, the other is 17 just turned, this explorer would like to stay at the explorer group as a leader. I understand this is not possible and against rules.

    I'm also now being told that this explorer can not take out an appointment with my cub group if still in a relationship with the explorer. This I don't understand, the cub group is nothing at all to do with the explorers. So is this the actual case?

    I've explained my cub group circumstances on here before, and for me to loose this leader makes my life running the group very hard as this would be leader is absolutely brilliant and I don't know if I could run the group without them.

    Can someone clarify this for me please?

    Thank you!

    My advice would be not to try and find a way of getting around this, or second guessing the rules.
    The only thing you can do and know for certain that you are correct is to ring / write to the information centre at Gilwell and get a definite answer to the question.
    David Symons
    Group Scout Leader 1st Tavistock

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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    I have just re-read the opening post and and it reads to me that one of the Explorers, who is the Cub YL, has just turned 18 and wishes to take out at an ACSL appointment. There is no mention of the other Explorer being a YL in the section and so the questions of a “position of trust” and 1 adult and 1yp who are in a relationship working in the same section do not arise.

    I don't think jen is asking for ways to circumvent the rules, merely what the rules actually are.
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


    A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. Lao Tzu (600 BC - 531 BC)

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