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Thread: Duty to God in the promise

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    Duty to God in the promise

    I have tried searching, but nothing comes up, so sorry if this has been done to death but.....

    If I get a parent who does not want their child to say God in the promise, i'm guessing it will be because they have no faith or whatever other reason there can be, what do you do?

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    ok... so... the equal opps policy says that we must not discriminate against kids so...

    keep your head down... shush and find a promise the kid will say and that you are happy with...

    no.. the SA don't help us on this one

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Let them make whatever promise they can agree with you.

    I've had this discussion with a parent, not an issue at all in my mind.
    Ewan Scott

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    Senior Member derekchambers's Avatar
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    I have a similar problem at the moment.

    Wearing my ADC hat I am suppose to say the criteria for joining is Faith and Duty but my group hat - I agree with above.
    Last edited by derekchambers; 09-01-2011 at 08:57 PM.
    Derek Chambers,

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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Explain that members in Scouting are encouraged to develop themselves spititually and give some example activities (writing prayers, visiting a place of worship, making a Diwali rangoli etc) and see if the parent is happy with that. There is no point fudging the Promise if they have a fundamental problem with some of what their child will be doing at Beavers

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Assistant Beaver Leader Keith's Avatar
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    We are supposed to stick to the official variations of the promise. Surely the parent knew prior to the yp joining Scouting that they have to say a promise which includes the line 'And to love God' and later 'To do my duty to God' and should have looked into the whole religion in scouting issue. Alot of people in Scouting would take a dim view of those who want to meddle with the promise and that you say one of the official variations of the promise or you do not join Scouting - simple as.

    Should we bar someone from Scouting on the basis if their beliefs or lack of - no.
    Should we let parents, yp or leaders modify the promise however they like - no.
    Just like we have variations to cover Christians, Muslims, Jews, Sikh, Hindus, etc. we should also have acceptable official versions of the promise for Athiests, etc.

    (For the record I am Christian!)
    Keith "Hawkeye"
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    Senior Member Doug in Canada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    We are supposed to stick to the official variations of the promise. Surely the parent knew prior to the yp joining Scouting that they have to say a promise which includes the line 'And to love God' and later 'To do my duty to God' and should have looked into the whole religion in scouting issue. . .
    I hope you were being sarcastic! In my 33 years of Scouting I think that maybe 20% of the parents I've interacted with would even be aware that we have a promise and maybe 20% of them would have realised the promise even mentions God! The later group would have been the ones who had come through the movement themselves!
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    Assistant Beaver Leader Keith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug in Canada View Post
    I hope you were being sarcastic! In my 33 years of Scouting I think that maybe 20% of the parents I've interacted with would even be aware that we have a promise and maybe 20% of them would have realised the promise even mentions God! The later group would have been the ones who had come through the movement themselves!
    Yes, there is a bit of sarcasm there Doug. However I would hope that parents would do a bit of research if they havent been involved in scouting before, before putting their childs name down even if it was just a quick look in http://www.scouts.org.uk so they had a rough idea of what their child would do at Beavers - I suspect a fair few wouldnt and would just go on their steriotypical view of Scouting.
    Keith "Hawkeye"
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    SM(s) (B-PSA) RedCoat's Avatar
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    Well, I hate to see yet another thread on this (although this is, I think, new on the Beavers thread it has been argued to death elsewhere) - but here goes.

    Sorry, but if they don't agree with the requirements for joining Scouting as they stand they should not be joining it.

    I'm quite willing to agree that the issue needs resolving one way or another as the issue is not going to just go away, but in my opinion ignoring parts of Scouting that you don't like is not in keeping with the values of the Movement.

    What about the one who does not agree with their child having to wear a uniform or following those strange Colony things they do at the start and end of the meeting?

    Scouting is open to all who wish to join it - but you don't join a football team if you want to play rugby. If you don't agree with the rules of Scouting you probably ought to be looking for something else. Scouting is not supposed to be about trying to simply raise numbers/capitation fees.
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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    There is absolutely no requirement for a child to have a faith. End of that debate.

    So how thenm can we say that and then insist upon a promise to God?

    Simples - we can't and we shouldn't.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    Senior Member roger-uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    There is absolutely no requirement for a child to have a faith. End of that debate.

    So how thenm can we say that and then insist upon a promise to God?

    Simples - we can't and we shouldn't.
    So what promise do they make then that is "official" as otherwise they are not members.

    I don't agree but thats how it is at this momnet in time.
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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    There is absolutely no requirement for a child to have a faith. End of that debate.

    So how thenm can we say that and then insist upon a promise to God?

    Simples - we can't and we shouldn't.

    This is the simple fact.


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    SM(s) (B-PSA) RedCoat's Avatar
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    At the moment you must, as that is a rule of the Association which you have chosen to join. End of that debate too.

    As to whether you should, that is where the debate needs to be held and a firm decision made - regardless of the fact that one way or another you will annoy (and probably lose) some of your members.
    Richard Cullen
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  14. #14
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-uk View Post
    So what promise do they make then that is "official" as otherwise they are not members.

    I don't agree but thats how it is at this momnet in time.
    We must fudge it. Cf. EOP



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    The Following Was Added to the post within 60 minutes of posting the above
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedCoat View Post
    At the moment you must, as that is a rule of the Association which you have chosen to join. End of that debate too.

    .
    please show me rule that says child must have a religion and make promise to god

    i can show you a rule that says we mustn't discriminate against kids on grounds of religion - that is one of the SA's core policies.
    Last edited by big chris; 09-01-2011 at 10:02 PM. Reason: Merged Double Post

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    SM(s) (B-PSA) RedCoat's Avatar
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    This would, as mentioned by Roger, mean that under the current rules these Beavers were technically not members, with all the legal issues that arise from that. Fudging it seems like a very bad solution (although I fully sympathise with why the suggestion is being made).

    As the EOP and the Promise are seemingly incompatable there is no actual right answer, so the need for the matter to be dealt with as soon as possible seems pretty pressing.

    (There is no rule about children having to have a faith, but the fact that members are required to make the recognised Promise is blindingly basic fact, Chris, so I cannot believe that a leader with your experience is unaware of the Fundamentals of Scouting. Please don't try to muddle the already muddy-enough water relating to this issue in the SA.)
    Last edited by RedCoat; 09-01-2011 at 10:05 PM. Reason: To answer added question
    Richard Cullen
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