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Thread: Daily Mail Article

  1. #1
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    Daily Mail Article

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/sav...eous-fees.html

    enjoy, at least I did not spot any DYB DYB DYB's
    There are cha' types of people on this planet, chaH vetlh jatlh tlhIngan and those that don't.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Hmm,. We only pay charges if we get overdrawn. Interest rates are low - true, but unless they change things there is not much we can do.

    As for the business tariffs for energy, nope, we don't seem to pay that, or a climate change levy, although, I will check.

    So we shall continue to DOB DOB DOB
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  3. #3
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    HSBC does have a Community Account specifically designed for ‘clubs, charities, societies and churches’ with none of these fees, but it does not come with a debit or even a cash card.


    Good! As we'd be breaking charity commission rules if it did!

    So, Lloyds do a clubs account, "treasurers account" I think it's called, and so does HSBC, I'm guessing most others do, so that rather undermines the premise of the article.

    Ian
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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  4. #4
    No mountain too high PeterSheppard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Good! As we'd be breaking charity commission rules if it did!
    You'd be contravening Scout POR, granted, but I am still unable to find this much-fabled Charity Commission "rule"!
    Assistant Area Commissioner (Activities) - Gwent

    "Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap... but by the seeds you plant"

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSheppard View Post
    You'd be contravening Scout POR, granted, but I am still unable to find this much-fabled Charity Commission "rule"!
    correct

  6. #6
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSheppard View Post
    You'd be contravening Scout POR, granted, but I am still unable to find this much-fabled Charity Commission "rule"!
    I knew it was some rules somewhere!
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    From CC3

    The trustee role: Trustees are accountable for the charity's solvency, continuing effectiveness and the preservation of its endowments. They must exercise overall control over its financial affairs. They should ensure that the way the charity is administered is not open to abuse by unscrupulous associates or employees; and that their systems of control are rigorous and constantly maintained. More details and a checklist of controls is in our guidance Internal Financial Controls for Charities (CC8).

    Bank accounts: Trustees must follow any relevant clause in the charity's governing document that specifies who is authorised to sign cheques. If there is no provision in the governing document which relates to the operation of bank accounts, the bank mandate must specify at least two trustees as signatories, unless the trustees can reasonably claim that it is necessary for employees to sign cheques to allow the charity to operate. Further guidance on security matters related to a charity's finances, is available in our guidance Internal Financial Controls for Charities (CC8).


    CC8 (note the term MUST is emphatic and means MUST - there is no interpretation)


    all charity trustees must ensure that they are aware of and assess the risks and take proper steps to manage them.

    but...

    Controls also need to be in place for payments made by cheque. Some governing documents require two signatories on cheques. Where practicable bank mandates should require two signatures, one of which being that of a trustee. Clearly, arrangements have to be practical and proportionate. Some charities may allow for small-value cheques to be signed by only one individual. In larger charities signatories may be senior employees although in such cases clear authority limits should apply. In all cases there are a number of basic controls that should be in place.

    It is worth at least scanning through CC3 and CC8, there is repeated reference to the duty to ensure froper financial control, and caution urged on single signatories.

    So, it is not a breach of the Law to have a single signatory, but it is ill advised, and if you do have a single signatory and things go awry, you have exposed your Trustees...

    So you can, but you ought not to.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  8. #8
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    normally moneymail articles are quite well written and informative but this article is well below their usual standards. istm that the author has put a load of facts and issues into one big pot, given it a stir, drawn them out randomly and pieced them together to hopefully make a dramatic story. failed!

    In some cases, these groups have considerable budgets of many thousands of pounds, usually taken from subscription fees or donations.

    most small charities, which is what many voluntary groups such as scout groups are, do not have budgets running into the thousands of pounds. my group is a typical small group and my budget each year comes to between 3-5k, hardly the 'thousands' the article implies. (even a 100 strong group charging 40 a year subs is only 12k). And most of the money in these accounts/budgets comes in and goes out again.

    if we don't have any designated funds then much of what comes in goes out again. we do not have massive savings. we do not accumulate.

    Yet the volunteers who give hours of their time are often forced to use expensive current accounts designed for businesses which come with hefty fees. They are also stuck with paltry savings rates because they cannot access normal High Street accounts.

    expensive business current accounts? hardly think so. the vast majority of groups will use community/treasurer accounts as their 'current' account. the subs will go into these and payments for activities will come out of them. there is little on offer for groups to massively switch to business type accounts. yes, we have cheques going in each term and we have cheques going out every now and then to pay for activities and such like, but not on a massive scale! most treasurer accounts do not have hefty fees. only in the extreme, where a group might be transacting dozens upon dozen of cheques, or if they go overdrawn or require a cspecail payment, will they incur charges. they are in general low maintenance accounts. granted, the rates on treasurer accounts are poor! let's not forget though that interest rates are low anyway (MLR is all-time low). these treasurer accounts are not big earners i'd guess for banks - most charities are not allowed to take on commercial/banking loans and neither are they allowed to run big overdrafts - hence interest charges and fees and such like are hardly levied. and treasurer accounts are normal high street accounts! they are effectively current accounts for clubs, groups and societies. of course groups can't use high street accounts that have added extras because these tend to be personal accounts and totally unsuitable for groups, clubs, and societies.

    there are some charities though that use business accounts because they tend to operate as a de facto business of sorts and tend to have high inputs and outputs, generally in excess of the limtis set for treasurer accounts. but these charities are not the local voluntary group charity of the sort discussed in this article.

    In many cases, charities and voluntary groups — no matter how much money they have — are made to take out business accounts for their banking.

    no they're not! most small charities can easily find a treasurers account to suit their basic needs. nobody is 'made' to do anything! sure there are charities who would like to operate with some financial freedom and require things such as card transactions or online banking or other such add-ons to the basic 'current' account. then there is far less choice and charges and fees for these added extras need to be considered.

    i'm sure there are many groups who would like to have accounts which have loads of extras, add-on management features, cards, eftpos, and such like, but would they like the fees and charges that accompany them?

    It has no charges for deposits or debits by cheque, cash, direct debit or standing orders and is free for groups with a turnover of up to 100,000.

    and so too have many treasurer accounts! in fact calling this a 'business account' (N&P business gold) is probably going ott and dressing it up.

    These can have an array of sneaky fees and charges. For example, the HSBC Business Direct account has 18 months of free banking, but after this charges can soon add up.

    There is a 2 per cent charge for deposits and counter withdrawals; a 75p per cheque fee if more than 20 cheques a month are paid in; and 1 per cheque charge if more than 20 a month are written. HSBC does have a Community Account specifically designed for ‘clubs, charities, societies and churches’ with none of these fees, but it does not come with a debit or even a cash card.


    so this is saying that clubs, societies, charities and churches are at a disadvantage because their similar account doesn't have a card facility. but many small clubs, societies and groups have rules which will not allow them to run a card facility on their account. hence it's no big loss!

    Despite being run on a shoestring, many local groups do have times of the year when they have a surplus of funds.

    For example, a year’s subscriptions may be paid in one particular month, or there might have been a period of fundraising. But banks are often unwilling to pay a decent return on this money —and, understandably, most clubs don’t want to put their savings in one individual’s name in case that person runs off with the money.

    yes they may have temporary surpluses but they do say 'shoestring'. what do they mean by 'decent return'? do you honestly expect a bank these days with MLR at 0.5% to pay out 10% when you collect your AMS money!!? there are many accounts out there paying less than RPI right now, not just charity accounts. in my group most money that comes in gets spent on the programme as soon as possible so as not to be caught by inflation. some has to be set aside for contingency. some has to go into savings. anything that is kept for designated long term projects is placed into a savings account which hopefully can offset inflation to some extent.

    and most clubs, societies, group, &c, have rules which forbid putting their money into personal accounts! stating the obvious is ott!

    The Fair Investment Company (www.fairinvestment.co.uk) lists the best accounts for charities, clubs and associations. One of the most popular is the Scottish Widows Charity 7-Day Notice Account paying 1.85 per cent on balances of 50,000 or above.


    great! but such accounts are for savings. i can't be having my GT wandering off to them to give them 7-days notice every now and then. Besides, I haven't got 50k in my group's accounts! (donations welcome though!!) this sort of account is more likely to attract savings/designated funds not the vast amount of money which comes in as subs and goes out again on activites. Even then 1.85% is not beating inflation right now!! some might say even this is not a 'decent return'. And my group isn't within 25 miles of stockport!

    notice accounts are okay for funds that need to be tied up longer term, but most small charities take in subs and use most of those subs to fund their immediate programmes; that part of their 'income' isn't suitable for a notice account. 'sorry chief can't pay the AMS in march this year because this bank out in dodge with our money won't let us have it until the summer holidays'. eh?

    and no we can't simply store up a big cash pile. besides the cc frown on groups that simply accumulate.

    Business Moneyfacts, a magazine aimed at financial advisers, lists every account available for charities and clubs. Subscription costs 110 a year.

    i'm not a financial advisor and the rate of return for my group shelling out 110 makes this ridiculous and a non-starter. Only bigger charities, ones with accountants and professional fundraisers, can do this, not scout groups.

    yes the aim to make charities aware that banking/finance always needs to be kept an eye on and that there may be good deals to be had and savings to be made, is a good thing. however, this article pretends to be an exposure of interest to voluntary group charities, when actually it largely isn't.

    all the bit about the scout group was saying was they need to be careful with their money, watch their bills, and can they find a (savings) account that will pay a high rate as possible for their HQ extension fund savings.

    but isn't that what most groups in such situations do?

    would be more interested reading about how daniel aged 3 broke into his big sister's piggy bank using an acetylene torch, a HS diamond drill, and a lollipop.

    cordially yours, TM


    Last edited by merryweather; 15-02-2012 at 07:05 PM.

  9. #9
    Yes, I've got the T-shirt Sparkgap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    would be more interested reading about how daniel aged 3 broke into his big sister's piggy bank using an acetylene torch, a HS diamond drill, and a lollipop.
    Nah, piggy bank ceramics would need something a lot hotter than an acetylene torch, suggest metal powder cutting, though any money is likely to end up a fused blob! Mind you, I once broke into a pub safe using an angle grinder, hammer and chisel for one of our former scout's parents! (one way of covering the capitation!)

    Getting back on topic, one thing that was mentioned in the article was having to pay higher charges for gas and electric. We are just looking at changing supplier to try and reduce our costs: I notice that the group pays about 25% more for the same electric than I do at home despite it all coming down the same wires and I would expect most HQs would probably have a loading comparable to the average house, so why charge more just because the place is classified as a 'business'?
    Andy
    SL 1st Wellington
    www.wellingtonscouts.org

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    Very good point Sparkgap. However the article,despite being supportive, missed this point!
    For merryweather - our group never has less than 50k pa turnover. We are a very large group, with a very active programme and a large premises with lots of community use.
    it all soon tots up!

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