Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 21

Thread: Scout to Explorer age ranges - and girls

  1. #1
    DSNC Craftshill gregharewood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Cottenham, Cambs
    Posts
    1,379
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts

    Cool Scout to Explorer age ranges - and girls

    Hi! I don't mean to drag up the old chestnut here, precisely. But I just popped along to this utterly excellent troop in South Africa...

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=1&theater

    ...run by Terence Vrugtman, Gavin Penkin and others. Now, I probably went in a with a bit of a "what do you mean you're not coed?" attitude. But they were adamant that with a full 11-18 age range for the troop, girl and boy development gets so out of sync at times, that they have seen too many ZA troops where the girls take over and all the boys leave.

    Is this true? Do we only get away with mixed groups because we have also stopped Scouting short at 13.5?

    (BTW - I have also discovered the secret of keeping Scouts interested in a single section beyond 14yrs old. It comes down to having patrol dens. This is a luxury that very very few troops in the UK have, but it might be the primary key to patrol loyalty that keeps the elders hanging around and makes them want to backfill and inspire their successors. This troop has 6 patrols dens, a small permanent room for each patrol that they have their own keys for and can access any day of the week.)

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Lisburn
    Posts
    667
    Thanks
    20
    Thanked 127 Times in 86 Posts
    Scouting doesn't stop at 13.5. After that they move to explorers for more challenges, fun and adventure.

    I'm also a bit puzzled by your comment about keeping scouts interested in a single section beyond 14, keeping them where? At 14 they should be looking to complete the scout section activities (CSA) and look to join explorers. Are you saying there's no explorers near you?

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Banwell, Nr Weston Super Mare
    Posts
    164
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    As an explorer Leader i'm perplexed that i'm not doing Scouting anymore!! lol

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Newcastle upon Tyne
    Posts
    1,493
    Thanks
    50
    Thanked 25 Times in 18 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by gregharewood View Post
    BTW - I have also discovered the secret of keeping Scouts interested in a single section beyond 14yrs old.
    So have I!

    It's my Explorer Scout unit - 21 YP which is co-ed.

    You'll never guess - I've also discovered how to keep over 18s involved - It's called Network and we have in the last month nearly 30 signed up looking to extend their Scouting.

    Happy days!!

    Barney

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    5,550
    Thanks
    427
    Thanked 1,066 Times in 632 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by gregharewood View Post
    Hi! I don't mean to drag up the old chestnut here, precisely. But I just popped along to this utterly excellent troop in South Africa...

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=1&theater

    ...run by Terence Vrugtman, Gavin Penkin and others. Now, I probably went in a with a bit of a "what do you mean you're not coed?" attitude. But they were adamant that with a full 11-18 age range for the troop, girl and boy development gets so out of sync at times, that they have seen too many ZA troops where the girls take over and all the boys leave.

    Is this true? Do we only get away with mixed groups because we have also stopped Scouting short at 13.5?

    (BTW - I have also discovered the secret of keeping Scouts interested in a single section beyond 14yrs old. It comes down to having patrol dens. This is a luxury that very very few troops in the UK have, but it might be the primary key to patrol loyalty that keeps the elders hanging around and makes them want to backfill and inspire their successors. This troop has 6 patrols dens, a small permanent room for each patrol that they have their own keys for and can access any day of the week.)
    Hi Greg

    I suspect its my medication but I am finding a lot of the recent posts confusing, what do you mean by 'stopped scouting short at 13.5' ? Secondly it might be the camera angle or the lighting but your photo of a scout group in modern South Africa seems to be a bit mono cultural was it a multi cultural group? if not did you ask why?

    That having been said I agree that giving young people enough responsibility to be young adults whilst still remembering they might forget their waterproofs is the secret of successful scout leading.

    Their comments on 'Boy Flight' are interesting and should be watched for over the next few years.

    Y.I.S. Tony

  6. #6
    DSNC Craftshill gregharewood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Cottenham, Cambs
    Posts
    1,379
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by gregharewood View Post
    Is this true? Do we only get away with mixed groups because we have also stopped Scouting short at 13.5?

    Looks like I've confused everyone with this :-)

    Do we get away with a mixed Scout Section by stopping it at 13.5?

    In South Africa, they run an extreme version of what we did before 1971, that is, the Scouts stay in the same patrols as PLs up to age 17.99. The Senior Scouts in that age range stay later in the evening and have some activities exclusively for their age range, but for the first 2 hours of the meeting, they are Scouts and PLs. The belief amongst the South Africans that I talked to was that the girls take over as PLs so strongly around age 16 that no boy ever gets a look in. They asserted that other troops that had gone fully mixed in their area ended up as girls-ONLY.

    I have for years fully believed that co-ed Scouting was best, and that we can deal with the difference in development between the boys and girls. Would the differences be too extreme if, in the UK, we ran a single section, 11-18? Or is there some other cultural factor at work in SA?

  7. #7
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    12,418
    Thanks
    3,581
    Thanked 1,196 Times in 793 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by gregharewood View Post
    In South Africa, they run an extreme version of what we did before 1971, that is, the Scouts stay in the same patrols as PLs up to age 17.99.
    No they don't they run Scouts as we did before 1946 when the Boy Scout Association (as was) created Senior Scouts.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    5,550
    Thanks
    427
    Thanked 1,066 Times in 632 Posts
    Hi Greg,

    I don't think it is a matter of 'getting away' with something, that makes out that there is something wrong with Girls in Scouting and their isn't. Your encounter with a group which was run on the original lines has clearly challenged some of your 'modern' thinking and rather than stigmatise their leaders as 'old farts' you have listened to what they had to say. Do males and females develop in different ways at different ages, the evidence says that mostly they do. Can this lead to young people becoming alienated from activities and giving up, yes it can. Is the original model needed in the UK? in some places it is. would it work? in some places it would. Is Co Ed scouting needed in the UK? in some places it is. Does it Work? in some places it does. In my opinion a mix of provision is needed which is why I'm accused of been out of touch and an old fart. Be interesting to see how things pan out in the future.

    Y.I.S. Tony

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Guernsey
    Posts
    362
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Hmm, "utterly excellent"?????

    It looks like it excludes 92% of the population as they are female and or coloured (1980 census datas). I'd call that rubbish myself.

    It looks like other environmental factors are at work to keep the +14's attending.

    How many members in this "utterly excellent" troop? Looks no more than 20 in the picture.
    There are cha' types of people on this planet, chaH vetlh jatlh tlhIngan and those that don't.


  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    5,550
    Thanks
    427
    Thanked 1,066 Times in 632 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by NAG2GSY View Post
    Hmm, "utterly excellent"?????

    It looks like it excludes 92% of the population as they are female and or coloured (1980 census datas). I'd call that rubbish myself.

    It looks like other environmental factors are at work to keep the +14's attending.

    How many members in this "utterly excellent" troop? Looks no more than 20 in the picture.
    Hi

    Clearly you have a clearer version of the photo than me which is why I asked Greg if the group was as mono cultural as it seemed and even if it were I'd like to know a lot more about the surrounding community ( give us up to date info on the local community if you have it. 1980 was a quarter of a century ago) before calling other scout troops rubbish. Could you also point out the other environmental factors keeping the +14 attending can't quite make them out on my photo?

    YIS Tony
    Last edited by Tony Ransley; 05-03-2012 at 01:29 PM. Reason: answered a point which had not been made

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Guernsey
    Posts
    362
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    Hi

    Clearly you have a clearer version of the photo than me which is why I asked Greg if the group was as mono cultural as it seemed and even if it were I'd like to know a lot more about the surrounding community ( give us up to date info on the local community if you have it. 1980 was a quarter of a century ago) before calling other scout troops rubbish. Could you also point out the other environmental factors keeping the +14 attending can't quite make them out on my photo?

    YIS Tony
    Ok Tony, sarcasm is fine if it's your chosen field of expertise.

    In 1980 84% of the RSA population was coloured, I guess somewhere in the region of 50% or the 16% remainder was female. Of the 19 individuals in the picture 1 is visibly coloured and 12 white - rest not possible to be entirely clear as white may be indian?

    I could not find more up to date stats for RSA, their last cencus was 2001 but I could not see the specific division.

    I was poiting out that the picture did not seem to portray a representation of the national demographic as I understand it.

    The RSA population circa 50m UK 60m, there are however great differences in how the YP's are brought up. Great extremes across RSA in terms of urban / country living.

    The SA's I've met within scouting have a much greater understanding of bushcraft and the outdoor life than their contemparies in the UK. This is what I mean by environmental factors, cultural and economic.

    I believe scouting should be a fully inclusive organisation and excluding yp's based on sex (or any other spurious parameter) is rubbish, but, I guess they are operation within the laws of their own SA just as we are.

    We have a great deal to learn from these RSA scouts ...

    RSA 50million population - 15,781 total members
    UK 60million population - 446,557 total members

    2011 numbers, just in case you thought I was in the 1980's again.
    There are cha' types of people on this planet, chaH vetlh jatlh tlhIngan and those that don't.


  12. #12
    DSNC Craftshill gregharewood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Cottenham, Cambs
    Posts
    1,379
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    ... I'd like to know a lot more about the surrounding community ( give us up to date info on the local community if you have it....
    You're right, of course. The troop truly WAS excellent in many ways. Does it reflect the community? What community? If it draws from a demographic THIRTY times bigger by NAG2GSY's figures, and land is more plentiful, then you won't be surprised to learn that every kid comes in by car, some distance. They certainly don't all know each other from school. Out of 23ish kids, one was black, one looked to be mixed race, the others were white. So, no, it is not representative of the population. It WAS based in a majority white town, however, which provides some bias.

    So - these questions were not what I was getting at. But I certainly asked them when I was there, and I can give you some answers:

    - The leaders did not perceive the black population as being interested Scouting as presently practised
    - Like many on these forums, they did not want to 'water down' the excellent (disciplined, highly skilled, loyal, addictive for the few) Scouting that they have today
    - Scouting is traditionally more expensive there and therefore less accessible to black families. This is in contrast to the way that Scouting grew in Britain, often strongest in war and post-war times and in 'all walks of life'
    - Not being perceived as wanted by blacks, no-one suggested to me that there had been any effective programme to proactively offer it or vary it in a way that might be more attractive to the black population

    I must say, it seems to me, like you guys, that someone nationally is at fault for considering it a duty and an opportunity, at some point post-apartheid, to find a way to make Scouting accessible and desirable to the majority population. Can we try not to blame my excellent local Scouting friends there for the wider problems, though? Like most of us, they give what time they can, and have a local focus and loyalty to their own group, and accept as members anyone who applies. THis group DOES run a girls troop, by the way, at a slightly different time on the same evening. And Cubs and Senior Scouts (when not with either single sex troop) ARE both mixed sections.

    It seems to ME that the thing to do is to break Scouting down into its fundamentals: providing adventure, personal development, role models, independence skills etc.. I think we're good at that in the UK, and it has enabled us to move forward and provide a programme that can be varied by old hands like you and I, but can also be presented by parents without Scouting experience. However, I know that many people HERE hate having Scouting "fundamentals", like knotwork, uniform, discipline, etc questioned. Scouting today is considered valid in this country even without some of these things, in some areas. That is not so in SA, they have not taken that path yet, and may not do so.

    It's worth saying that all their stuff is WOSM branded. Their national leadership doesn't seem to see it as their job or perhaps right to vary the traditional recipe. In fact, WE in this country and very much the pioneers and disruptors. It's worth remembering that much of the rest of the world probably things we're doing it wrong :-)
    Last edited by gregharewood; 05-03-2012 at 10:44 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Guernsey
    Posts
    362
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Thanks for the comments Greg, my earlier comments were not meant to denegrate the individuals you mention. I strongly agree with your comments about the majority of the population not connecting with Scouting.

    RSA is a very big and diverse country, for some reason we seem to attract more than our fair share of their ex-pats over here. We have a new member this term from RSA and she is settleing in well.

    With only 15,000 members, the SA in RSA is tiny by comparison to the UK.

    Did you ask about the local provision of Guiding?

    In answer to the original point -yes I did read it properly - our explorer unit has access to their self contained cabin when ever they want, this does not seem to make a difference to the rather feeble number of members.

    Or maybe it does and the "other" impedements are extreemly severe!!!
    There are cha' types of people on this planet, chaH vetlh jatlh tlhIngan and those that don't.


  14. #14
    Peter SL 18th Bolton Horw notgonehome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Manchester, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    Posts
    442
    Thanks
    33
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Re Girls taking over.
    At the moment we have three patrol leaders two boys one girl when we look at the upcoming scouts and based on merit we can see the next PLs could be all girls will this have an affect on boys staying I hope not
    Our girl scouts aged 11/12 years have good heads on
    Our boys same age seem to be in silly mode
    So yes the girls do take over

  15. #15
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,668
    Thanks
    425
    Thanked 2,949 Times in 1,603 Posts
    It's worth saying that all their stuff is WOSM branded. Their national leadership doesn't seem to see it as their job or perhaps right to vary the traditional recipe.
    Varying the traditional recipe... Scouting has to suit its environment. Here in the UK we live in one of the most regulated countries in the "free" world. We have very little "wild country" (despite what the DoE and Scouting may think). We do not live in the same world as Baden Powell did, our Scouting has to change to suit an increasingly urban population, with a diminishing understanding of the countryside and nature. A population with a low level of craft skills - where we don't know and don't care about how things work or happen, just so long as when they go wrong we can call on someone else to sort out the problem. Our Scouting has to be set against that background, that society.

    Places such as South Africa are places where the contrasts in society are often beyond our comperhension. Cities where the facade is one of modern commerce and normality, but around the corner lurks chaos and not just a different world, but a different universe. Many of these countries are still frontier states. Frontier states have different perceptions of rules and risks and what is acceptable. They therefore have a need for a different type of Scouting, perhaps a more traditional type of Scouting, for there, not being able to build a shelter, live off the land, repair a puncture, work a radio etc.. could very quickly become a matter of life or death.

    We can only teach what people perceive to be useful. I have a recent example. Having been forced to step back into hillwaking I am teaching my Scouts to use map and compass. I am looking at them getting pinpoint accuracy with references, and bearing accuracy within 2 degrees either way.

    I have been told, "They don't need to know this. Use digital mapping to plot the route, then print it out and they can use the printed out route maps." Digital mapping and GPS has made map and compass redundant. (Not in my book).

    NO THEY ****** CAN'T!!! Because if they can't read the map, if they can't orient the map, if they can't check their bearings, they know nothing. But, apparently I'm wrong. One of my DoE Gold candidates (done outside Scouting) said, can you show me how to do this, I've never had to plan a route or use a compass.

    In fact, WE in this country and very much the pioneers and disruptors. It's worth remembering that much of the rest of the world probably things we're doing it wrong :-)
    Indeed, but if you look at our society, what we offer reflects the country that we live in.
    Last edited by Bushfella; 06-03-2012 at 10:49 AM.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

Similar Threads

  1. Selling BRAND NEW explorer scout leader shirt and explorer scout large shirt
    By Ginge in forum Items For Sale or Wanted (Scouting Related Only)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-12-2012, 10:40 PM
  2. Scout Uniform Sizes - Girls Blouse
    By EmmaP in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 13-10-2012, 11:22 AM
  3. Rebel Scout leaders sacked after refusing to let in girls
    By fmountford in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 04-02-2010, 04:17 PM
  4. Replies: 115
    Last Post: 30-11-2006, 09:32 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •