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Thread: Planning in the Pub

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    ASL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    Planning in the Pub

    Tonight we were planning the next term's Scout programme in the local pub. One of my colleagues ex Scouts dropped in and (hopefully) might be prepared to be an OH.
    The four guys at the next table asked if we were doing the Pub Quiz, I said no we were planning Scouts leading to a discussion with two out of four being interested in helping but one, with 4 year old son, very interested in being a leader having been a Sea Scout in his youth.
    Anyway, this post is not about potential new leaders but the question from the parent - what training will I get? He obviously felt that being a Scout 10+ years ago did not qualify him to be a leader and that he would need some help/training.

    This is not the first leader (or prospective leader) who has asked for training. I do wonder whether module validation is only part of what we should offer adult leaders and that many of them (either with Scouting experience or not) don't need something more like the old Leadership 1 to make sure they have the Scouting practical skills as well as all the knowledge and admin skills the modules cover.
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk

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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    This is one of the major criticisms I had of the training when I started Scouting 8 years ago at the ripe old age of 50, having never been involved in Scouting before.

    As a reasonably well educated, professional person, with a responsible job, family, house etc. I had the admin and other skills that seemed to form a large part of the training and the things I didn't know, I was quite capable of finding out by doing my own reading, research etc. The one thing I didn't have and wanted help and training for were the Scouting skills. Fortunately, I joined a group that had some experienced leaders, so I was able to pick up a lot "on the job" - but I still think that I would have benefited from more formal training in practical Scouting skills.
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


    A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step.¯ Lao Tzu (600 BC - 531 BC)

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    Senior Member satkin55's Avatar
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    I guess we're lucky in Oxfordshire then. County run training sessions for all the modules.

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    Senior Member roger-uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by satkin55 View Post
    I guess we're lucky in Oxfordshire then. County run training sessions for all the modules.
    I am sure there are no modules for:

    Fire lighting
    pioneering
    knife, saw and axe
    Open fire cooking
    etc etc

    These are skills that need to be taught and imho brought into the Woodbadge at Cub level and certainly Scout and Explorer level. Its what seperates scouting from your average youth club.

    Beaver also love making sparks with Ferrocerrium rods as well.
    Roger Woods
    Assistant Group Scout Leader,
    1st Sawley (All Saints) , Long Eaton

    NSRA Air Rifle instructor
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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Firstly, the modular training system is a bit of a sop. It takes into account prior learning, ostensibly, but the fact that those with skills no longer attend training in those particular modules they have prior learning in, weakens the experience for those without the skills. Also, the availability of the online training etc. means that people take shortcuts. But that's only one issue. The other is that practical hands on training is limited, and where it is offered it is often schewed by Leaders who have too much to do...

    I don't know how we get around the lack of practical skills if people will not attend training. In my 18 years in Scouting I have done a fair bit of training and I have even put on practical training courses - though of course no-one attended from outside my Group...

    At Whitley, we constantly see evidence, and I'm sure the same is true at other sites, of Scouts camping where the Leaders either have low skill levels ( and therefore their charges have lower still skill levels), or where they have some skills but fall short on standards and, dare I say it, common sense.

    We have been saying for decades now that skills training and scoutcraft needs to receive more focus in training, axe and saw, knives, pioneering, campfires, basic knots and their uses, backwoods cooking ( and I don't mean baking a cake in an orange). These are basic skills we all should have, even Beaver Leaders should be able to access the basic skills.

    I've missed out lamps and stoves, because as people move away from the technicalities of pressure lamps and stoves to gas and electic these more retro skills can be picked up by those who need them when they need them, but for goodness sake, let's get the basics right.
    Ewan Scott

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    Senior Member Tazmania's Avatar
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    I have a cub leader friend with over 16 years experience and she swears blind she can STILL only tie a reef knot.... (luckily I and my other leaders can tie a few more!!!)
    But it isn't relevant to her, so she won't bother to learn it. I on the other hand, have had both horses and boats.... knots go with the territory and if you don't learn them quick you have to swim or run a very long way!!!


    2 kids, 1 house, non-scouty husband, BSL, ACSL, and 1 full time job!! If I can do it why can't everybody else?!?

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    Senior Member Rainbow_Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-uk View Post
    I am sure there are no modules for:

    Fire lighting
    pioneering
    knife, saw and axe
    Open fire cooking
    etc etc
    My nights away training had sections on Knives, saws & axes, and I'm sure we had to build a fire!
    Most of those on the course (or at least in my group) were pretty knowledgeable on these things so it was a brief overview really.... I'm sure if there were anyone with less they could've asked more questions and gone into it more.

    There was also a section on tents and we had to pitch one... which was always fun as we'd arrived the night before and pitched camp then...
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    Senior Member Gooders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-uk View Post
    I am sure there are no modules for:

    Fire lighting
    pioneering
    knife, saw and axe
    Open fire cooking
    etc etc

    These are skills that need to be taught and imho brought into the Woodbadge at Cub level and certainly Scout and Explorer level. Its what seperates scouting from your average youth club.

    Beaver also love making sparks with Ferrocerrium rods as well.
    There are two modules (17 - Activities Outdoors and 18 - Practical Skills) that can and should include the subjects that you list.

    It does depend on your location as to how these are delivered though. Here in Shropshire there is a training weekend that runs once or twice a year covering modules 16, 17 & 18 where Leaders from each section are taught the relevant skills for that section. I did mine as an ASL so we Patrol camped, cooking on wood fires and using axe and saw etc. Any gadgets we needed had to be made. It was a really enjoyable experience.

    There is also a mandatory planning session about six weeks earlier where the Leaders have to plan the weekend, menus, kit lists etc.

    Following the weekend Leaders are expected to run an assessed camp for their NAP.

    I'm not going to pretend that anyone is an expert after just a weekend but it is a start and the majority of the CTT are happy to come out to Section meetings and deliver further training.

    Stephen

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    Stephen Goodman

    All opinions expressed here are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my Group, District or any other organisation of which I am a member.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Walsallwizard's Avatar
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    Big deep breath.... and here we go...

    I really intensely dislike the modular training that we do now! Right that’s out of my system

    When I trained I did Leadership 1 & 2 which were 2 full weekends and covered everything, part of this was to visit another Group, camping, admin, games, H&S, etc.. Due to a break in Scouting and failure of the administration the paper work was not pushed through so I finished my training under the new modular system and armed with the proof of Leadership 1 & 2, work experiences, prior scouting, hill walking, camping, etc I was signed off to Wood Badge in a short space of time.

    We do lack in training for traditional skills, but what are we realistically wanting and how do we want to access training for these skills. I have access to training courses and the County have put of skills training days, the last 2 were cancelled because of non interest, only 2 people put their names forward... me and Mrs Yorkielass. As the saying goes “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink!” The impact on the trainers and providers of the training is clear to see they are disillusioned and wary of putting on anything else, and they have the unfair label of not doing anything!

    I have skills that I have learnt over the years but am I as proficient as I could be? No. I do not get to practice enough nor do I have enough theoretical and practical training; ergo although I am confident but I am not necessarily competent. Have I got time to fit in anymore training? No, not this year. I am giving up 7 days annual leave for Scouting, and studying Modules, 24, 25 and have a 2 day First Aid course to do. I am sure others have more on than me as well as their usually weekly hour or two per week...

    To the OP I am a huge fan of having meetings in the pub and not for the drink. It brings us into the community, there is the option for a drink of choice (including non alcoholic), usually someone will speak with those doing this and this may just be a reminiscence moment, a membership enquiry, offer of help or leadership enquiry, but the important thing is someone has taken notice and engaged with us.

    To anyone that asks what training Scouting can offer I have this answer, it’s not my answer but that of my County Training Manager “We’ll put training on for whatever you need, it may be one to one, it may be in a group, but if you want it we’ll do it”
    Richard Fenton
    CSL 1st Hartburn Sea Scouts (Graham Mellanby's Own)
    www.hartburnseascouts.org


  10. #10
    Senior Member DonTregartha's Avatar
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    I'd have to say that I'm a fan of modular training. As Peter says, I had lots of 'management' experience and a lot of the stuff covered is teaching your grandmother to suck eggs. But I also had quite a few scouting skills from way back. My interest was in updating my approach to fit with modern scouting, so Modular training was ideal for me.

    However on the subject of practical skills... All of us with practical skills SHOULD be helping those in our groups without them.

    When I did scouting as a lad, you had to gain skills otherwise you couldn't advance and you certainly couldn't become a PL unless your camping skills were impeccable.

    If you're running an axe and saw or firelighting activity with scouts, make sure you give your fellow leaders a 'masterclass' as well.

    The 'advanced' kids can get involved and it will improve them as well.

    In cubs my first question on a knotting evening to the team was 'can you tie....?'

    Then I'd show them.

    At camp, use 'downtime' to bring leaders up to scratch.

    Yes there are skills days in District, but they are rare occasions and we need SKILLS training now.


    Don Tregartha
    Old Scouter
    1st Wing Scouts

  11. #11
    No mountain too high PeterSheppard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-uk View Post
    I am sure there are no modules for:

    Fire lighting
    pioneering
    knife, saw and axe
    Open fire cooking
    etc etc
    All of those are now in Module 38 (Skills for Residential Experiences), which is the bulk of what was in Module 16 before they split it up. OK, pioneering is limited to "gadgets", but the basic skills are the same.

    Our county run a combined 16/17/18/38 course as an evening planning session followed by a residential weekend a few weeks after. All of the above and more are covered, and in a fair amount of detail.

    I do think we should offer a separate and specialist pioneering skills course though, as it can be such a rewarding activity which 90% of leaders seem to have forgotten about. When you look at some of the constructions by our overseas counterparts, it really puts us to shame.

    We should also have "skills and chills" camps for adults to pass on and share more skills.
    Assistant Area Commissioner (Activities) - Gwent

    "Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap... but by the seeds you plant"

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    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    Tonight we were planning the next term's Scout programme in the local pub. One of my colleagues ex Scouts dropped in and (hopefully) might be prepared to be an OH.
    The four guys at the next table asked if we were doing the Pub Quiz, I said no we were planning Scouts leading to a discussion with two out of four being interested in helping but one, with 4 year old son, very interested in being a leader having been a Sea Scout in his youth.
    Anyway, this post is not about potential new leaders but the question from the parent - what training will I get? He obviously felt that being a Scout 10+ years ago did not qualify him to be a leader and that he would need some help/training.

    This is not the first leader (or prospective leader) who has asked for training. I do wonder whether module validation is only part of what we should offer adult leaders and that many of them (either with Scouting experience or not) don't need something more like the old Leadership 1 to make sure they have the Scouting practical skills as well as all the knowledge and admin skills the modules cover.
    Here's a thought - the following appears on AA Forms (it is not on HOH forms but even then it can be done)

    "I have read a copy of Guide for Managers and am happy to support the named adult through the appointment process and will ensure that a relevant induction takes place."

    So a GSL signs that and I wonder how many actually do it.

    I do agree with the other part though too.

  13. #13
    Senior Member wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    Here's a thought - the following appears on AA Forms (it is not on HOH forms but even then it can be done)

    "I have read a copy of Guide for Managers and am happy to support the named adult through the appointment process and will ensure that a relevant induction takes place."

    So a GSL signs that and I wonder how many actually do it.

    I do agree with the other part though too.
    Well as a GSL all I can say is I do try to - as to if it's working, you'd probably have to ask the team! The fact that once people have started they seem to stay (all things being equal) then I guess most of them must think so.

    The modular scheme works well for us, but I guess part of the issue around it comes back to poor induction, varying access to good TAs etc - which meaans it's probably variable across any part of the country

    I must admit the practical skills side is where we have struggled as a Group, and when District were asked to run such a event they sorted it all out but it was cancelled because only 3 leaders (all my Group) then booked on it... So we try and use local experts to teach us an the YPs at the same time, we have a parent with great "backwoods" skills he happily shares / helps with and next weekend 4 of our team are off to Thriftwood for their extreme firelighting course.

    We're also currently looking at Group leadership team Night Away - no YPs but a chance to get to know some of our colleagues better in a soical environment and combine it with some training based on what they have asked for. Trouble is fiting it in to our manic schedule....
    Louise

    GSL 1st Fenstanton & Hilton Scout Group www.scubes.co.uk


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    Media Manager - Cubjam2016

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    Yes, I've got the T-shirt Sparkgap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walsallwizard View Post
    Big deep breath.... and here we go... I really intensely dislike the modular training that we do now! Right that’s out of my system When I trained I did Leadership 1 & 2 which were 2 full weekends and covered everything, part of this was to visit another Group, camping, admin, games, H&S, etc.. Due to a break in Scouting and failure of the administration the paper work was not pushed through so I finished my training under the new modular system and armed with the proof of Leadership 1 & 2, work experiences, prior scouting, hill walking, camping, etc I was signed off to Wood Badge in a short space of time.
    I did training both under Basic/Advanced and L1/L2. About 25 years ago at a scouters conference we bent the ear of the Chief Scout about getting a modular system in place which recognised previous training and experience as we'd just lost a couple of leaders who were unable to do the training then in place at weekends due to work commitments. Eventually they got around to bringing it in When I moved to another district and it came to getting my wood badge, the DC basically went through a checklist (done this?.. yep... done that?... yep... know how to do this?.. yep) then said all I needed for it was to do the L1 again. Not exactly modular, but the thinking was there. Simples!
    We do lack in training for traditional skills, but what are we realistically wanting and how do we want to access training for these skills. I have access to training courses and the County have put of skills training days, the last 2 were cancelled because of non interest, only 2 people put their names forward... me and Mrs Yorkielass. As the saying goes “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink!” The impact on the trainers and providers of the training is clear to see they are disillusioned and wary of putting on anything else, and they have the unfair label of not doing anything! I have skills that I have learnt over the years but am I as proficient as I could be? No. I do not get to practice enough nor do I have enough theoretical and practical training; ergo although I am confident but I am not necessarily competent. Have I got time to fit in anymore training? No, not this year. I am giving up 7 days annual leave for Scouting, and studying Modules, 24, 25 and have a 2 day First Aid course to do. I am sure others have more on than me as well as their usually weekly hour or two per week... To the OP I am a huge fan of having meetings in the pub and not for the drink. It brings us into the community, there is the option for a drink of choice (including non alcoholic), usually someone will speak with those doing this and this may just be a reminiscence moment, a membership enquiry, offer of help or leadership enquiry, but the important thing is someone has taken notice and engaged with us.
    On various training courses I've found that the informal sessions in the pub in the evening tend to be more informative in many cases than the actual course itself! You can learn a lot from other leaders (a bit like pre-internet escouts!). As for training in practical stuff, one idea might be to have regular joint weekend camps with other groups: you'll find both kids and leaders will pick up new skills as they're using them straight away, not in a hall of an evening. Thoughts?
    Andy
    SL 1st Wellington
    www.wellingtonscouts.org

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    Senior Member Ceiron's Avatar
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    I am torn. I think the midular training works well for what it is.

    I understand its all voluntary as well on the whole.

    However i do feel organisationally its a bit hit and miss.

    I have come into scouts from a st john backround but very little young person setting such as that in scouts.

    I have many skills that transfer however i do feel out of depth a lot and do ask for help which can be hit and miss.

    I am unsure if its how i appear but i have bern pretty much accepted as competent and left to get on with it.

    I do feel a bit over whelmed at times but manage.

    The team is great if just very over worked. I am unemployed and so have a lot of free time i am willing to donate but it seems under used massively.

    If the modules were organised faster i could have most complete properly very quickly.

    I am willing to do as many training things as needed or possible.

    I think my main gripe is lack of paperwork and materials. And a good grip of all admin. they may have it sorted as a team but i am quite clueless.

    I proposed idm which i have implemented at scout level and am hsppy to expand it myself to all other sections but no one else seems that keen and without full intergration it seems wasted to me.

    I dont want to sound over critical as on the whole it works very well in group i just think theres bits that can be updated etc.

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