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Thread: I'm going to moan about D of E

  1. #1
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    I'm going to moan about D of E

    Well, not D of E per se, more the way some people run it.

    Apparently a local campsite is going to have "about 250" D of E people on it this weekend. Now, assuming this is a practice expedition, I think someone is playing fast and loose with the 20 requirements, I mean:

    2. Your expedition must be unaccompanied and self-sufficient.

    Well, I guess no one is accompanying them on the walk, but I bet they aren't leaving 250 kids on the campsite on their own.

    8. You and your team must plan and organise your expedition.

    The campsite is *here* and I've booked it for you, I'm guessing each team didn't ring up the warden. Yes, great self motivation shown there!

    I could go on, but it seems like a sham to me.

    I wonder if it's one of the private schools round here that manage to get an awful lot of kids to Gold by the end of their A levels.

    Ian
    Ian Wilkins
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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Nope, I discovered how and why this happens the other week.

    We are trying to play this "by the book" , the kids have to learn to rad a map, orientate it, make and take references and for good measure we throw in compass use (which apparently they don't need at Bronze!) We insist that they complete their records and if theydon't they don't get the award.

    Now, here we are struggling with a Bronze and a Silver party, trying to get them up to speed, and the local DoE centre tells us that they run 14 sets of assessment expeditions each year, with up to 100 participants in each. That's a lot of kids going through DoE, and if you make them parties of 5 each doing a distinct route, you still have 20 different routes to supervise at the same time. We find it hard enough to cope with 2!

    But, as of now I'm not too worried, if they do DoE theydo it, if they don't, then it is their problem.
    Ewan Scott

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    Senior Member marcswales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Well, not D of E per se, more the way some people run it.

    Apparently a local campsite is going to have "about 250" D of E people on it this weekend. Now, assuming this is a practice expedition, I think someone is playing fast and loose with the 20 requirements, I mean:

    2. Your expedition must be unaccompanied and self-sufficient.

    Well, I guess no one is accompanying them on the walk, but I bet they aren't leaving 250 kids on the campsite on their own.

    8. You and your team must plan and organise your expedition.

    The campsite is *here* and I've booked it for you, I'm guessing each team didn't ring up the warden. Yes, great self motivation shown there!

    I could go on, but it seems like a sham to me.

    I wonder if it's one of the private schools round here that manage to get an awful lot of kids to Gold by the end of their A levels.

    Ian

    Is it that time again?

    It won't be long then before I meet the local Comp walking down NCN 88 . 3 adults who just happen to be walking along the same route, possibly with one or more special needs kids with them and then 50 yrds behind a shamble of groups in mulitples of 4 ( where one group has caught up with the other) The naviagation for the first group is easy

    A) Follow the teachers
    B) If teachers are not visible follow tarmac track and signposts.


    naviagation for the later groups is easier still, follow the trail of litter,dropped map cases, shoes, headphones...


    Oh well as long as they get to tick the box that says :Taken part in something that society thinks is worthy but has no idea how it's really run, that looks like Scouts but that the LA can control.

    The school wary of alienating those with learning difficuties has abbreviated the title of the box to DoE
    Previously CSL/ ASL now Witch Master General ( West) ( Poacher turned gamekeeper!)
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    "I wonder if it's one of the private schools round here that manage to get an awful lot of kids to Gold by the end of their A levels."

    I would just like to point out you don't have to be from a private school to get it before your 18. Also what is wrong with getting gold before?
    I got mine before I was 18 and sorted out everything myself including expeditions (no one in my unit was doing gold so I went out and actively found a group with the local authority that was doing it).
    Richard W Hinchliffe
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    26th Doncaster (West Bessacarr) Scout Group

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RWHinchliffe View Post
    Also what is wrong with getting gold before?
    I got mine before I was 18 and sorted out everything myself including expeditions
    Nothing, if you aren't spoon fed, so good for you and congratulations.

    (I'm probably just bitter because I never got any further than my Advanced Scout Standard)

    Ian
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

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    My perspective as a parent of a two explorers who are doing their DoE's (one Bronze, one Silver). My sister-in-law completed her Bronze through a school in the way you described, trip in a minibus, three hour walk, centrally catered, slept in permanently erected tents, back home, certificate through the post. She never saw her log book (in fact she never heard of one until we mentioned it) and hadn't realised she done the other elements during her school work. Good school, clever girl, not her fault the way it was ran.

    At first it annoys you that your children are having to play by the book when others open a cereal box to get their award but then you realise your missing the point. As an award its a piece of paper, some uni and employers take it more serious than others. But as a life experience, as a set of challenges to be faced and conquered when done its properly clearly my sister-in-law lost out. So to you leaders who deliver the award properly - thank you.

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    I don't think I'd let myself be spoon fed. I'm in the process of becoming a DofE Leader at an Exploerer unit and I won't spoon feed them either - or let their parents organise everything as has happened a few times.
    Richard W Hinchliffe
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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RWHinchliffe View Post
    I don't think I'd let myself be spoon fed. I'm in the process of becoming a DofE Leader at an Exploerer unit and I won't spoon feed them either - or let their parents organise everything as has happened a few times.
    My apologies, I sincerely didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, not my intention. But you can still see my point can't you? 250? Say 200 kids, that's 40-50 teams. No way are some of them not going to just follow the group in front. If fact, they'll probably not be able to avoid it if they tried.

    Ian
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Nothing, if you aren't spoon fed, so good for you and congratulations.

    (I'm probably just bitter because I never got any further than my Advanced Scout Standard)
    I got my Silver DoE but decided not to pursue Gold and concentrate on the (old style) QSA. Much easier to do both at once now because of the aligned requirements, I suppose (when I was doing mine some DCs, not mine so far as I know, wouldn't allow you to count the same things for both DoE and QSA), but in the end I didn't fancy the faff of the bureaucratic side of DoE and just wanted to get an award that meant something to me - so the Scouting side it was.

    Neil

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    Dont worry they weren't ruffled. I too find it annoying when things like this happen but I just wanted to point out not everyone is like that. :-D
    Richard W Hinchliffe
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    26th Doncaster (West Bessacarr) Scout Group

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    Ian, I can understand why it irritates you. It irritates me that some kids get it by cheating without even realising they've done so. Let's face it, they've never done it before so have no idea how it's supposed to be run. It's not their fault.

    My daughter did her practice a couple of weeks ago in the Dark Peak. They didn't see any Leaders along the route and when they got to the campsite, there were a lot of other Groups there. They still had to cook for themselves and be self sufficient. Their Leaders were on a separate site except for the last night which was a site that required the Leaders to be on site (I checked the web site to find out why the Leaders were there).

    I run Scouts, so don't get involved with D of E, but I try to think of the Chief Scout Awards in the same light. I make the Scouts work for it. We have a group of 4 off on an expedition in 2 weeks and they haven't yet booked their accomodation. I'm not doing it for them. If they don't so it, they won't get their Challenge badge and ultimately, it means 2 of them will miss out on their Chief Scout Gold.

    However, I know some Leaders would book it for them and sort out their transport. To me, it devalues the award. If you ask our past Scouts, they will agree. They know in their hearts that they truly deserved that award and are incredibly proud to tell people what they did to get it. The same goes with the D of E.

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    nele
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    I agree with Aidan's father doing the award properly is great life experience and that's the main point. However young people do want to use it on their CV or uni statement and if some people get this mass organised experience without the real challenge, it devalues the award in the eyes of employers and universities.

    Shouldn't DofE be able to help by putting in extra safeguards like a max number of teams which can start at one place at one time?

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    Senior Member marcswales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nele View Post
    I agree with Aidan's father doing the award properly is great life experience and that's the main point. However young people do want to use it on their CV or uni statement and if some people get this mass organised experience without the real challenge, it devalues the award in the eyes of employers and universities.

    Shouldn't DofE be able to help by putting in extra safeguards like a max number of teams which can start at one place at one time?
    Ah but it doesn't delvalue the award in their eyes because they just see the DoE adverts, that showsn them how an award is done properly. The DoE does a good job of selling both up and down , to the YP and the employers.

    As for putting limits on the No of teams, they could but then the LA coudn't run them in the way they do and the revenue stream drops off.

    I did the Bronze, in a torrential thunderstorm that caused our uniforms ( ATC) to shrink. I EARNED that.
    My Silver I failed because ( and I'm still bitter 30+years later) we aborted the second day and returned to the (wild) campsite we had left from because of a medical emergency. We did the mileage, ( we turned ound at over 1/2 way not to attempt the Penyfan with a member who was dizzy from earache) we were out for 2 nights, but were failed on "wrong route" I can't see the local Comp allowing that to get in the way, maybe I should ask them for another go?
    Previously CSL/ ASL now Witch Master General ( West) ( Poacher turned gamekeeper!)
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    SM(s) (B-PSA) RedCoat's Avatar
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    I offer DofE through our Group, but insist on it being done properly with the Scouts being responsible for sorting it and doing it, and me supporting them. So far they have utterly failed to do so. However, they are still getting the awards as the local comp is more than happy to baby them through to Gold in order to make their stats look good for Ofsted. Of course, the kids are learning nothing from the DofE ehen it is being abused by schools running it in this way, but while schools are desperate to keep their funding and need these results it is going to continue.
    Richard Cullen
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