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Thread: Poor Training, Poor management...

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Poor Training, Poor management...

    Read this from the HSE

    http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2013/rnn....htm?eban=rss-

    1/ Why had the victim not been trained properly
    2/ If they had not been trained why was there no supervision?
    3/ Who hikes carrying a 5 litre container of meths? Oh sorry, I think I can work out how that one works.

    This is why I want my Scouts/ Explorers trained to use equipment properly, not some half assed schools-led walk in the park. Sorry, this is MY hobby horse!
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    agree with you, of course.

    Assuming word "trangia" is involved, disagree with HSE guy. Although probably only a soundbite was quoted.

    The amount of meths, the use of a valved bottle etc. all seem a bit beside the point. We as a matter of course take two burners per stove. We demonstrate to our kids, using a long pole, what happens if you try to refill an already light burner and if they don't come up with "always fill only a cold burner" in a Q&A before using the stove, they don't use it.

    And of course their root cause was lack of training.

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    "Any fuel needed for the trip should have been taken in containers incorporating a safety cut-off valve"

    Are we likely to need to replace our fuel bottles with the Trangia plastic ones, then? Don't know any others with that sort of feature.

    It does sound like training is the real answer, though.

    Neil

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    Senior Member Mallah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    1/ Why had the victim not been trained properly
    I guess we don't really know if she had in fact been told not to use the 5l container, We have all got examples of scouts doing something we had specifically told them NOT to do only minutes before.
    2/ If they had not been trained why was there no supervision?
    Again linked to the question above, but read further in and this was towards the end of a cooking session, much of the instruction and supervision would have/might have taken place at the start. It's still possible that instruction to get a leader to re fill was given - and ignored!
    3/ Who hikes carrying a 5 litre container of meths? Oh sorry, I think I can work out how that one works.
    We don't, but we do have such containers in the stores which are decanted into the smaller metal containers prior to camp etc. However, I can understand such a container being in the vacinity on a DofE event.

    He who receives a good turn should never forget it; he who does one should never remember it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Not Again ! I seem to remember a very smiler accident in the Scout Movement caused us to buy those safety bottles they mention.

    ------ Update --- The Following was Added within 30 Minutes of the above ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Sorry, this is MY hobby horse!
    Only one Hobby horse Ewan I have a whole stable of them

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=mike142sl;312169However, I can understand such a container being in the vacinity on a DofE event.[/QUOTE]

    Really? Speaking from a position of much ignorance, but I thought they were supposed to be self supporting?

    Ian
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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    Senior Member SimonM's Avatar
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    Please don't tar all schools with the same brush...I've run DoE / expeditions / camps in schools for 10 years or so and never had an incident...

    I agree that in this case there are some serious failings...but a contractor was being used to run the expedition, by the sound of it with school staff in support. From experience, that support is usually pastoral, with the contractor leading all training.


    In regards to fuelling stoves, I maintain a single refuelling point on all camps. If a burner is too hot to carry to the central fuelling point, it's too hot to re fill.

    In addition, I only issue Trangia fuel bottles, with the safety valve, to expedition groups. Whilst I may have a 5L fuel bottle elsewhere, the YP are never allowed anywhere near it.

    Simon
    Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri

    (Ever noticed how wherever you stand, the smoke goes right into your face?)

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    No mountain too high PeterSheppard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Really? Speaking from a position of much ignorance, but I thought they were supposed to be self supporting?
    Could have been a skills training camp, or an initial supported practice.

    Schools will quite often have to teach camping from scratch, so will need to do leader-led static camps before anyone can be out unaccompanied. We take these things for granted with our own members.
    Assistant Area Commissioner (Activities) - Gwent

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    It would seem that poor training was the probable cause of this accident.But as Simon says not all schools have bad trainers. Here in the South West we have the annual Ten Tors Challenge on Dartmoor and looking at last years figures on the 35 mile course there were 94 School teams and 44 Scout teams. On the more challenging 55 mile course there were 24 School teams and 8 Scout teams. The first team back was a school team Torquay Grammer. I was watching our two teams and noted that the first team to drop out was a Scout team,at the first Tor on their course. The second team to drop out at the second Tor on their course was also a Scout team. This would indicate poor training and preperation for this quite difficult expedition. 2012 was a good year weatherwise and 80% of the teams completed the course with all team members.
    The Dof E traing manual is quite clear on the necessity to learn safty when using stoves
    Certainly the schools entering this event are usually well trained and it is always over subscribed with the entry limited to 2400. Our teams like most school teams start training in October for the event which is in May.
    On the Trangia problem our team have had all of theirs modified to gas,much simpler and safer.

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    Senior Member Walsallwizard's Avatar
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    A lot of my Cubs and Scouts declared that you should light a fire using petrol; they refused to believe it was explosive because of the number of times they have seen it on film. So to demonstrate I poured 50millilitres in the bottom of a very wet oil drum used for burning wood and was already full of wood. Everyone on them believed that this would make an instant bonfire. The explosive whoosh of the ignition of the petrol and its fumes shocked them all (I arranged an ignition from a distance) and has ended the belief in using petrol for fires.

    What worries me about this though is that I am sadly not surprised it has happened, there are probably a lot more unnecessary accidents that go unreported then we get to hear about. Safety is paramount, not just our own but also our YP; hopefully we teach our YP to not only be safe but know how to look after each others safety.
    Richard Fenton
    CSL 1st Hartburn Sea Scouts (Graham Mellanby's Own)
    www.hartburnseascouts.org


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Read this from the HSE http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2013/rnn....htm?eban=rss-
    1/ Why had the victim not been trained properly
    2/ If they had not been trained why was there no supervision?
    3/ Who hikes carrying a 5 litre container of meths? Oh sorry, I think I can work out how that one works. This is why I want my Scouts/ Explorers trained to use equipment properly, not some half assed schools-led walk in the park. Sorry, this is MY hobby horse!
    Very tragic and of course we lost a child in an exatly the same incident about 15 years ago I think. young lad tried to fill up a stove whilst it was still alight and at the same time had spilt some meths on his clothes. However having investigated many accidents in a work enviroment I know it is never as clear as first appears, and bushfella to answer you points.

    1, we dont know that hadn't been trained properly. thats why at work we are trying to implement a behavioural programme to improve safety as despite plenty of training and education, some people still break the rules, forget etc. and sometimes there a few people who will never do what you tell them....

    2, I am sure there was supervision. but there is a difference between what would be described in my work as immidate supervision, that is available on site against personal supervision i.e sitting on someones shoulder. no movement or company would ever be able to provide personal supervision. we had a camp a few years ago and despite many leaders being available and keeping a constant eye on things, one lad still managed to put a unopened tin on a gas stove. we knew about it when the envitable explosion happened, and we found a lad completely unharmed and a tent covered in soup, and a gas stove blown in about three parts. I wouldnt have held any of them leaders responsbile for that accident.

    3, Sounds odd I know, but what it does not say is this may have been the main bottle from which the small fuel bottles are filled from.

    having seen some scouting incidents I dont think we are in a position to to critisise other providers despite what our view may be of their training. or competence of their leaders.
    Paul Austin
    Kent Scouts SASU Water team
    G0AXQ, intrests in Scouting, Cycling, Hiking, anything on the water. seeing the young people achive.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Okay, I take on board the counter points.

    1/ If the victim poured fresh meths into a still alight burner, they had not been properly trained QED.
    2/ If someone was allowed to take a 5 litre container to their stove, there was patently a lack of, or poor supervision. That container should never have been anywhere near a stove.
    3/ These kids were on a DoE training expedition, now maybe I have got it wrong but surely the whole idea is that when you train you take what you need, you do not have a bus load of back up kit. If you run out, then you learn from the experience. If you have too much kit, you refine it, if you don't have enough you refine it. Fuel carried should have been sufficient for the cooking being done. If not, then they need to look at what they were cooking, or how they were cooking it. Sorry, but this was a Silver expedition. They should not have been relying on back up supplies IMHO.

    Further, if the back up supplies were available, the kids should not have had unsupervised access to them. Meths from a 5 litre container should have been decanted into a proper fuel container first. (That would still not have stopped this incident in itself, but it may have limited the damage).

    Yes, we have all had kids do something against instructions, and I all too painfully aware of that, but at the end of the day it is the supervisor's' failure to control the situation that is where the fault often lies. My walkabout Explorers, the supervising Leader went AWOL, our communications were not robust enough, ultimately, that was his and my fault, had something gone wrong, he and I would have been, at least in part to blame.

    Unfortunately, we are in a position to question when things go wrong, whether it is Scouting, DoE or anyone else. Because we have to learn from these incidents and make sure that we don't repeat them.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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    Because we have to learn from these incidents and make sure that we don't repeat them.

    Yes completely agree with that one, and that is where the movement really lets us all down. it does not publish the details and causes of incidents. I have previously suggested a monthly digest with the incidents that have occured and thinsg that could be done to stop them happening again. Unfortunatly the movement does not seem to want to do this, so we will continue to have the same errors and accidents over and over again.
    Paul Austin
    Kent Scouts SASU Water team
    G0AXQ, intrests in Scouting, Cycling, Hiking, anything on the water. seeing the young people achive.

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    we will continue to have the same errors and accidents over and over again.

    eg. ?

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    SM(s) (B-PSA) RedCoat's Avatar
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    Some schools are, I'm sure, still doing DoE properly - but many are simply not. Don't assume that these kids had any experience just because they were doing their Silver. Most schools I know ignore Bronze, and a couple only do Gold as it looks better on their annual reports. A lot use every possible short-cut they can, basically "running" boil-in-the-bag instant expeditions. Offering DoE properly round our way is a waste of time as the kids don't see why they should work hard to get something identical to that which they can get for half the effort down the road.

    With relation to this event, we do need to perhaps do a quick check that we are ensuring that our Scouts are not making the same mistakes at camp - but also recognise that tragic accidents can happen in a matter of seconds.
    Richard Cullen
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