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Thread: The thread which just won't die?

  1. #4756
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Handy tip...when it says...

    "POR is more what you would call "guidelines" than actual rules" the answer they want is "disagree".

    "is sitting on top of the kit in the back of a lorry ok?" the answer they want is not "well it was ok when I was a scout"

    To be honest, and we should be honest shouldn't we? It feels to me like you're coming back from the living in the wilds and now everything looks slightly different, and your DC is trying to get you a shower, a shave and a decent haircut. I hope the reintegration doesn't carry on being painful for too long.
    Actually, you're half right, but?

    I know folks here think it's the wild west where we are - but it's not. We followed and follow rules as best we can. But if there is no district, what were we supposed to do - just stop?

    Now, we have a DC who's trying to catch up (and working exceedingly hard) but is doing so while not recognising just how much catching up there is to do. And since they (and we) still aren't adhering to all the rules, the hard line, holier-than-thou, zero tolerance position district is taking, is a bit difficult to swallow.

    It would also help if the training wasn't so bland, hyberbolic and patronising. Someone made a good living foisting that rubbish on the organisation...

    Can anyone tell me how far away a leader (who's been leading for some 10 months, but who's PVG has been held up for almost a year, because reasons), has to camp away from Scouts?

    Apparently this is a thing, although I'm having trouble digging out the parameters. Is there any advance on - 'in another field'?

  2. #4757
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Can anyone tell me how far away a leader (who's been leading for some 10 months, but who's PVG has been held up for almost a year, because reasons), has to camp away from Scouts?

    Apparently this is a thing, although I'm having trouble digging out the parameters. Is there any advance on - 'in another field'?
    Not on the same campsite would be my opinion (as in even sleeping in another field would not be acceptable if they are there to help supervise the Scouts overnight) if you allow them to camp on the same campsite and the **** really hits the fan then IMHO you wouldn't have a leg to stand on (however unlikely that scenario is). Not sure how a PVG can be held up for 10 months either, it usually takes days to get a DBS check done, it seems the paper process apparently involved in PVG checks is causing real issues if you have had one outstanding for 10 months.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
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    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  3. #4758
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Not on the same campsite would be my opinion (as in even sleeping in another field would not be acceptable if they are there to help supervise the Scouts overnight) if you allow them to camp on the same campsite and the **** really hits the fan then IMHO you wouldn't have a leg to stand on (however unlikely that scenario is). Not sure how a PVG can be held up for 10 months either, it usually takes days to get a DBS check done, it seems the paper process apparently involved in PVG checks is causing real issues if you have had one outstanding for 10 months.
    It's not the process, it's the people, or lack there-of.

    Since we're wild camping, potentially near to people we've never met before - about 10 metres from a public road and footpath. Putting an already-trusted person in another campsite entirely, seems, ummm, daft. (I know you're answering in the context of Scouts, I know you're not daft... But if you thought of it outside the context of Scouting...)

    Ho hum...

    (Perhaps this is why I'm having to do a safeguarding course three months after I've done a safeguarding course.)

  4. #4759
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    It's not the process, it's the people, or lack there-of.
    That is my point, the DBS process is entirely online and only needs one Leader to complete a DBS check for another Leader, so there are no delays with anything sitting on someones desk waiting to be processed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    It's not the process, it's the people, or lack there-of.

    Since we're wild camping, potentially near to people we've never met before - about 10 metres from a public road and footpath. Putting an already-trusted person in another campsite entirely, seems, ummm, daft. (I know you're answering in the context of Scouts, I know you're not daft... But if you thought of it outside the context of Scouting...)

    Ho hum...

    (Perhaps this is why I'm having to do a safeguarding course three months after I've done a safeguarding course.)
    The members of the public are not there to help supervise the Scout members and trusted by them. The risk is an abuse of that trust in an overnight situation where they are not supervised/observed by another adult. If it turns out they have an previous offense and you let them camp as the NAP holder I doubt you would be long in Scouting. Small risk I know but one with potentially massive consequences for your members and yourself

    Plus you start to remove the expectation that people MUST have a PVG check in order to stay overnight if you allow it once, its a slippery slope

    Its simply not a road I would ever look to go down, I would jump up and down on whoever is holding up the PVG check until they pull their finger out and get it sorted.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 10-10-2019 at 08:28 PM.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  5. #4760
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    That is my point, the DBS process is entirely online and only needs one Leader to complete a DBS check for another Leader, so there are no delays with anything sitting on someones desk waiting to be processed.
    I didn't know it was as straight forward as that. In this instance, our bit of paper spent ten days with the GSL, ten days with district and eight days at Gilwell.

    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    The members of the public are not there to help supervise the Scout members and trusted by them. The risk is an abuse of that trust in an overnight situation where they are not supervised/observed by another adult. If it turns out they have an previous offense and you let them camp as the NAP holder I doubt you would be long in Scouting. Small risk I know but one with potentially massive consequences for your members and yourself

    Plus you start to remove the expectation that people MUST have a PVG check in order to stay overnight if you allow it once, its a slippery slope

    Its simply not a road I would ever look to go down, I would jump up and down on whoever is holding up the PVG check until they pull their finger out and get it sorted.
    I get all that, but it's still predicated on a situation we've created ourselves. TSA make the rules around PVG/DBS checks. It's still a bit of a double standard to me.

    I also think there is difference between doing it once in an obvious situation like this, and doing it as a matter of course.

    Although it's moot, because he's decided not to come along.

    Both of my ASL's now have 'training plans' about which they're not thrilled. They said tonight that it wasn't the time necessarily, but the imposition of it because of what was a hobby.

    This past week, the issues and activities we've mucked around with are worse than anything I've experienced at work - and I work for the biggest bureaucracy in Scotland. It does not bode well.

    (As an aside, one of the ASL's was in getting a dressing changed in Edinburgh. The nurse was chatting away - my ASL said he was away this weekend with Scouts. She laughed and said she got KB'd from a Beaver Camp the previous weekend because district lost her training records. My ASL laughed and commiserated. It makes me wonder, just how much of this is going on.)

    Anyway, other than the PVG thing, it's mostly sorted. I think we'll be keeping our heads down in future. None of us are keen on the gold plating around safeguarding. Having done the module this week, they now want us to do a face-to-face course in November. I think I might be busy.

  6. #4761
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Having done the module this week, they now want us to do a face-to-face course in November. I think I might be busy.
    Its not up to "them" its up to your GSL, you have complied with the minimum standard if you have done the online safguarding training, I'd be asking my GSL to tell them to back off on that one if I were you. Having said that it might not be a bad idea for your newer Leaders to attend the course.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  7. #4762
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    Chicken curry for 28. That will be fun.

    Scarefest is popular in my troop!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #4763
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    Our gsl left the chilli out of the scouts curry last night very bland compared to the one a patrol made last week

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