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Thread: Use of Scout Halls?

  1. #16
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Wearing my GSL hat, anyone using our hall does so at our convenience, that much is made clear to everyone at the outset.
    I would not turn up on the Friday and tell a Saturday user that they were unable to access the hall the next day, but for planned events, a month or more's notice is ample to allow the location of alternative accommodation for one week.
    absolutely agree! one must plan these arrangements carefully from the start and be mindful of changing circumstances. it is wise to build in contingencies wherever possible.

    however, as you say, when you have agreed you cannot simply change things on a whim at a moment's notice. agreements are agreements between parties whether they be contracts or gentlemen's handshakes, and should be honoured.

    If we get to the stage where shared use is impacting upon Scout use, then we have an issue.
    totally agree! agreements and their plans need careful thought and should have little or no impact on scouting provision; they're there to fill in the dead-space/time to make your HQ work for you by raising funds while it otherwise would be just standing there.

    I do have a question for the OP. All three sections meet on a Monday night. How is that possible?
    it's tight but it's possible!

    Our Beavers meet 6:15-7:15, allow 15 minutes for change over, Cubd run, on another night, 6:30 -8:00pm, so they would have to run 7:30 - 9:00pm, and Scouts with their two hours would have to run 9:15 - 10:15 on a Monday night. Not going to happen.

    Does this mean that your sections start earlier, say 5:00pm, and only run for an hour each?
    yes i too would question the wisdom of having a provision which boxes you into a corner and effectively allows you no freedoms in your own house!

    seems to be little forethought here.

    If the hall is available on other nights of the week could your Group's provision not be improved by better use of the hall for Scouting? Or has your Group allowed the hall rental to become its driving force and Scouting is an also ran? The scenario seems odd to me. My Group has a hall and if I had the Leaders we would have a section, or two in every night of the week because that is our primary purpose. If I had a section in every night of the week ( I am one night short just now) I would have the income from subs that means I don't need to rent out at all...
    yes there does seem to be some quite bizarre imbalance here. it might be a hangover from the time when the group was far less active or smaller (in numbers and sections)?

    one good reason why GECs need to plan for future provisions rather than just do something because it feels okay at the time.

    imo, this highlights once again that strategic thinking is one thing we do poorly in scouting. (probably because our training is weak and ineffective in this area?)

    (once more we agree!)

    regards, TM

  2. #17
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    a

    imo, this highlights once again that strategic thinking is one thing we do poorly in scouting. (probably because our training is weak and ineffective in this area?)

    (once more we agree!)

    regards, TM
    I think that startegic planning is weak because we don't sell Scouting as a serious business. It is. No-one would join their local Hospice organisation without understanding the seriousness of the affair. No-one would join their local Railway preservation Society without understanding what they were taking on. Yet in Scouting we undersell what we off as , "Just helping out with Scouts" and then we wonder why it all goes tits up strategically.

    Often those with a strategic plan get labelled, "Empire Builders" as if that is some derogatory term. If we are not building, then what are we doing? Marking time?
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  3. #18
    Senior Member dasy2k1's Avatar
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    Unless you run all 3 sections simultaneously I also can't see how you can have all 3 sections on a Monday night, currently the only day mon fri that isn't used by a section meeting in our Hall is Thursday, Tuesday and Friday both have 2 sections meeting that night (beavers then brownies on Tuesday amd rainbows then guides on Friday, with cubs on Monday and scouts on Wednesday)

    Oh while the scouts technically own the building, it would not be financially possible without the guides, effectively it's 50-50, when other people use the hut (currently not very often as there is a larger church hall next door that can be hired) the needs of the scouts and guides come first. Then again the only semi regular other users are all linked with scouting or guiding anyway ( District meetings, aac, network meetings (they move around each week rather than having a fixed meeting place) ssago etc)

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  4. #19
    Senior Member bernwood's Avatar
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    Our only free nights are Friday, saturday , and Sunday. Cubs, scouts - Monday Explorers -Tues Beavers - Wed, Cubs - Thurs. we hire out the hall over weekends, but only on one off, or short terms, as we use it for sleepovers , and camps, and our own events. We treat any money strictly as a bonus, not as money to run the group, this gives us the flexibility of having the hut as our resource, and also a source of income.

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    Hello All,

    Thank you for all your comments -

    1. We ask for donations and don't have contracts as otherwise we would have to have a hire license which the GEC doesn't want (and we have researched this so please don't tell I am wrong)

    2. Yes, all 3 of our sections meeting on a Monday night - Beavers 5:15-6:15pm, Cubs 6:30-8pm and Scouts 7:30-9pm, we have our main hall and a separate back room, so the scouts start off in the back room the come into the main hall - which works atm as we only have 15 scouts.

    3. I did not mean that the 10-3 timings stop me from doing a sleepover - they limit my options - because of my work commitments and other voluntary positions (DBSL and Football Coach) I can only run a sleepover on a Saturday night - and I prefer to run for a full 24 hours as then the Beavers get the most out of it. Also I don't see why I should use another hall when I could use Our own scout hall.

    4. I would never just march in and tell a group that they cannot use it the next day - I understand that - however I have asked my GSL if she can look at the dates for 2014 and try to see if some of the weekends at the beginning of half terms and school holidays can be freed up.

    5. Yes, I always go for the beginning of half-term rather than the end because 1. the beavers have the holiday to recover and 2. I have the holiday to recover - some seem to think that the sleepover finishes when the kids go home - but you have to review it and then plan for the next one (that's what I do anyway).

    6. Our hall is not used 7 days a week - it is used on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday Eves along with Friday and Saturday (every other) day times.

    I think I may look at discussing with the group in question if they would be willing to swap.
    I will also bring this issue up at our next GEC meeting.

    Thank you for all your comments and suggestions
    Dolphin
    BSL - Worthgate, Canterbury
    DBSL Canterbury, Whitstable and Herne Bay

  6. #21
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clangers.nsu View Post
    1. We ask for donations and don't have contracts as otherwise we would have to have a hire license which the GEC doesn't want (and we have researched this so please don't tell I am wrong)
    This just leads me to the question of why on earth they do not want to have license agreements with people hiring your hall? All they would do would be to put in writing and formalise the agreements already in place and make sure everyone understood on what basis the hire was made. You could even put in conditions such as if given advanced notice of a month or more of the building being needed for Scouting uses then the hirers have to give up their usual hire time which could either be rearranged or no charge would be made. There could be a annual limit to the number of times the Group could do this to them such as at most 3 times per calendar year or whatever to prevent them feeling they are being messed around and never knowing if they are going to be allowed to use the hall etc.

    Without such agreements in place the Group is IMHO opening itself up to possible problems such as hirers not actually making a donation, damaging the hall and refusing to pay for repairs, demanding access to the building at times not originally agreed, refusing to move/cancel their meetings when requested and given adequate notice etc etc

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  7. #22
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clangers.nsu View Post

    2. Yes, all 3 of our sections meeting on a Monday night - Beavers 5:15-6:15pm, Cubs 6:30-8pm and Scouts 7:30-9pm, we have our main hall and a separate back room, so the scouts start off in the back room the come into the main hall - which works atm as we only have 15 scouts.
    Interesting. If we started at this time we wouldn't have many Beavers as their parents often aren't home from work.

    [/quote]
    6. Our hall is not used 7 days a week - it is used on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday Eves along with Friday and Saturday (every other) day times.[/quote]

    But not by Scouts. So the point I was making that your Group appears to have boxed itself into a corner in its own hall, still stands. A question of priorities perhaps.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  8. #23
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    I had a complaint last week from the nursery who rent our hall during the daytimes. In order to get gas out of the gas cage for camp I had to hack back a bush which had been allowed over time to grow over the cage. The nursery manager complained that I had cut back the bush (our bush I hasten to add) which had been doing a really good job of hiding teh cage, and also complained that I had left the cuttings in a corner of the playground.

    The third response I typed (the only one polite enough to send!) reminded them that the building was primarily a scout hut. I think its something that tenants, and scout groups, can often forget! I'm sure they'll get even more upset when I remove what's left of the bush next weekend so that we dont have to fight with it to get at the gas cage!

    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

  9. #24
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clangers.nsu View Post
    Hello All,

    Thank you for all your comments -
    you're welcome!

    1. We ask for donations and don't have contracts as otherwise we would have to have a hire license which the GEC doesn't want (and we have researched this so please don't tell I am wrong)
    so the GEC doesn't want to use a licence agreement? if that's it's choice so be it!

    sorry, can you explain what you mean by this contract and licence thing you talk about above. if you have a contract you have to have a hire licence; is that correct?

    are we to understand that the relationships between your group and the other community groups that use your HQ are ones founded purely on what is termed a 'gentleman's agreement' and any binding is on honour and trust alone?

    would be interested to hear of your research on this matter because if right, as you say, then a lot of groups appear to have got this wrong.

    would i be correct in saying that because these relationships are bound on honour alone, with no intention to make them legally binding, then you could change the relationship terms at a moment's notice or even evict the community groups with no notice if you choose to?

    so why not just tell them you need the HQ at the time you say and that the model games group will just have to sit it out or find another place or time?

    finally, just as a hypothetical, if one of your community groups trashed the HQ - someone got angry over a warhammer game! - what do they have to pay in costs to you to fix up your HQ? how much insurance premium do you pay to cover the use of the HQ by the other groups or do you rely on them to pay for cover?

    i have no intention of telling anyone they're wrong! please forgive me if i accidentally have. there's a lot of confusion in these matters and good research by your GEC could help others to gain similar benefits.

    2. Yes, all 3 of our sections meeting on a Monday night - Beavers 5:15-6:15pm, Cubs 6:30-8pm and Scouts 7:30-9pm, we have our main hall and a separate back room, so the scouts start off in the back room the come into the main hall - which works atm as we only have 15 scouts.
    atm?

    3. I did not mean that the 10-3 timings stop me from doing a sleepover - they limit my options - because of my work commitments and other voluntary positions (DBSL and Football Coach) I can only run a sleepover on a Saturday night - and I prefer to run for a full 24 hours as then the Beavers get the most out of it. Also I don't see why I should use another hall when I could use Our own scout hall.
    can you not simply tell them the score and just use the HQ when you want it? it is your HQ as you say!

    4. I would never just march in and tell a group that they cannot use it the next day - I understand that - however I have asked my GSL if she can look at the dates for 2014 and try to see if some of the weekends at the beginning of half terms and school holidays can be freed up.
    agree it's best to draw up plans and give notice. what happens if they say they're not willing to make these weekends free, or do you think that someone will see sense and there won't be a problem?

    5. Yes, I always go for the beginning of half-term rather than the end because 1. the beavers have the holiday to recover and 2. I have the holiday to recover - some seem to think that the sleepover finishes when the kids go home - but you have to review it and then plan for the next one (that's what I do anyway).
    ok.

    6. Our hall is not used 7 days a week - it is used on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday Eves along with Friday and Saturday (every other) day times.
    sorry, i was under the impression that it was fully utilised.

    I think I may look at discussing with the group in question if they would be willing to swap.
    you get their slot on the saturday and they get your slot on the monday in return?

    I will also bring this issue up at our next GEC meeting.

    Thank you for all your comments and suggestions
    you're welcome.

    interesting to hear of the many different ways of doing these things.

    good luck!

    cordially yours, TM

  10. #25
    Senior Member roger-uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clangers.nsu View Post
    Hello All,

    Thank you for all your comments -

    1. We ask for donations and don't have contracts as otherwise we would have to have a hire license which the GEC doesn't want (and we have researched this so please don't tell I am wrong)

    2. Yes, all 3 of our sections meeting on a Monday night - Beavers 5:15-6:15pm, Cubs 6:30-8pm and Scouts 7:30-9pm, we have our main hall and a separate back room, so the scouts start off in the back room the come into the main hall - which works atm as we only have 15 scouts.

    3. I did not mean that the 10-3 timings stop me from doing a sleepover - they limit my options - because of my work commitments and other voluntary positions (DBSL and Football Coach) I can only run a sleepover on a Saturday night - and I prefer to run for a full 24 hours as then the Beavers get the most out of it. Also I don't see why I should use another hall when I could use Our own scout hall.

    4. I would never just march in and tell a group that they cannot use it the next day - I understand that - however I have asked my GSL if she can look at the dates for 2014 and try to see if some of the weekends at the beginning of half terms and school holidays can be freed up.

    5. Yes, I always go for the beginning of half-term rather than the end because 1. the beavers have the holiday to recover and 2. I have the holiday to recover - some seem to think that the sleepover finishes when the kids go home - but you have to review it and then plan for the next one (that's what I do anyway).

    6. Our hall is not used 7 days a week - it is used on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday Eves along with Friday and Saturday (every other) day times.

    I think I may look at discussing with the group in question if they would be willing to swap.
    I will also bring this issue up at our next GEC meeting.

    Thank you for all your comments and suggestions
    What is a hire licence ??
    Roger Woods
    Assistant Group Scout Leader,
    1st Sawley (All Saints) , Long Eaton

    NSRA Air Rifle instructor
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  11. #26
    Moderator jshirra's Avatar
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    You say you have two rooms? Is there any way to let them use one and you the other? It would be for a few hours only by the sound of it? Could you drop stuff at the hut/set up then take the YP off on a walk or to the park or cooking on fires outside?

  12. #27
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-uk View Post
    What is a hire licence ??
    eh? do you 'ave a lessance? is it against the leu? do you play that thing and people give you the muhnay?

    people give the monkey the money!

    : ( I )

    sorry i digress.

    a hire licence is a licence you grant to someone who wishes to hire something from you (e.g. your HQ). it is usually a written agreement and as such is the first part in establishing a contract as it sets out the intentions of the licensor of how the relationship with the licensee will be managed/arranged, in particular it will set out the offer to the licencee to establish a legal relationship. it will also include the terms, benefits and consideration details. a licensee signing the agreement is giving their acceptance of the offer.

    you can call it a hire agreement if you like!

    would you be interested in getting a lessance for your minkey?



    regards, TM

  13. #28
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    All the users of our HQ are licenced even one offs.

    Basically as TM has stated it is a user agreement and it tells them what they can expect and what is expected of them. It tells them things like when they can use the place and what is included and what it will cost them to do so and that the fee can be reviewed and how often and the fact it must be paid and when.

    What happens if they damage anything or cause a nuisance, that they need their own insurance for any of their gear and their own liabillities.

    That fact that as it is our HQ, we can ask them not to use the place if we need it and in any case we can have access to the building when they are using it if we need to and that they do not have exclusive use (we have a meeting room too that is separately bookable but use of kitchen and toilets are shared etc.

    The agreement was drawn up based on the specimin supplied by HQ.

    We have never had to use the licence to effect any problems but it is there - we do have a user who is a bit awkward but she knows we mean business now and complies. She was a user before the HQ was destroyed and when rebuilt we had a new committee and new rules which she felt she should not be subject to as she had a 'gentleman's' agreement with a previous HQ 'manager' going back 20 years plus and he hadn't been involved for 10 plus years.

    By not having something in writing some users feel that they have a right to do as they please as they always have and 'Fred said it was OK'.

    Just my 2p.

    I too would love to know why the Exec are against a proper agreement.

  14. #29
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    I agree with daveb123! All our users also sign an agreement... we call it a booking form if its a one off / small number of hires and it comes with terms and conditions which they have to agree to. For longer term users we have a proper license agreement signed by both parties.

    The only one we havent yet got to sign is the nursery - but our new exec chair is sorting that one out for us!

    Our policy as a group is that the hall is there primarily as a venue for scouting. Ideally we would like it to pay for itself (rather than subs money going towards the hall) and if it can make a profit, so much the better - but not at a detriment to its Scouting purpose. Priority will always be taken by Scout Group events, then other Scout and Guide units wanting to use it, then community groups, then private parties.

    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

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