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Thread: Compass, Young Person Information, membership and the census cut-off date

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    Question Compass, Young Person Information, membership and the census cut-off date

    I am hoping that someone may be able to clarify the following.

    Scenario assumptions
    1. New YP starts attending before census cut-off;
    2. Leader adds details with parent(s)/carer(s)/YP directly into Compass to ensure emergency contact available on first attendance;
    3. YP makes Promise after census cut-off date.


    Question
    • Will this YP, not yet a member (POR 3.1.o) and therefore not eligible for paying capitation (POR 3.1.m) be counted in the census for capitation purposes?


    It boils down to:
    • Does Compass allow for a Membership start date to be after the current date?
    • Can the membership start date be altered (e.g. Promise date changed)?
    • Does the census report take this date into account?
    • In there a creation date separate to the membership start date?


    Or alternatively, does POR need updating? You could rightly argue that capitation should be paid whether or not a Promise has been made.
    Nico Hall
    Group Scout Leader
    76th Sheffield (St Peter's Ellesmere) Scout Group

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    It's all riddled with contradictions.

    For instance, a prospective member needs to be on Compass before you can record their progress towards the membership badge.

    On balance I think it's important that the promise retains its position as the key to membership, and we should adapt Compass to suit that reality by adding the ability to record date of investiture.
    Last edited by London Scouter; 24-01-2015 at 11:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by London Scouter View Post
    It's all riddled with contradictions.

    For instance, a prospective members needs to be on Compass before you can record their progress towards the membership badge.

    On balance I think it's important that the promise retains its position as the key to membership, and we should adapt Compass to suit that reality by adding the ability to record date of investiture.
    You would have though that someone would have gone through POR to identify the business rules to be built into the Compass specification requirements. After all, if Leaders don't comply with POR they risk losing their membership - why shouldn't the system that is there to support Leaders?
    Nico Hall
    Group Scout Leader
    76th Sheffield (St Peter's Ellesmere) Scout Group

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    There's no mention of making the Promise in the adult appointment process, so I guess it's the same with the YP process too. I don't think HQ care about investitures. They just want their money sooner rather than later. They only care about the money.

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    POR says:

    Young people become Members of the Scout Movement by making the Promise appropriate to their Section.

    Adults become Members by making the Promise and completing a Members' Declaration.

    Really it's clear that there are two key dates when someone joins the movement:

    1) Date of first participation (typically attending a section meeting but could be some other sort of event)
    2) Date of making the promise

    For some sections the rules stipulate that 2) has to happen a certain time after 1)

    e.g. Beaver membership badge says "attend at least four meetings".

    So both dates ought to be trackable.

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    Just looked at the Adult Information Form, which includes further contradictions in this department:

    It has "Date of Joining Scouting" as a mandatory box to complete

    but requires applicants to confirm on page 4

    "c) am prepared to make the Scout Promise (where appropriate – if you are unsure please contact your line manger or the Scout Information Centre)"

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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    How can the date of joining be known when the applicant hasn't even been before the AAC? After all, the decision of the AAC might be not to appoint and the applicant then can't join!

    it would seem to me that nobody with any knowledge or authority checks these things. First we have the fiasco (on the orginal ypif, now amended) with regard to GA and now this.

    TSA really does beggar belief. As you say upthread the whole system is riddled with contradictions.
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


    A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. Lao Tzu (600 BC - 531 BC)

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    Remember the ypif form had been successfully trialled in two counties for months 😃
    Mike Hudgell
    ESL (YL) Worthing - worthingyl.info

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBaloo View Post
    How can the date of joining be known when the applicant hasn't even been before the AAC? After all, the decision of the AAC might be not to appoint and the applicant then can't join!

    it would seem to me that nobody with any knowledge or authority checks these things. First we have the fiasco (on the orginal ypif, now amended) with regard to GA and now this.

    TSA really does beggar belief. As you say upthread the whole system is riddled with contradictions.
    That depends Peter.

    If the application is the first then you may be correct. But for someone who was an Explorer for instance then the date of joining would be when they joined Explorers or Beavers etc.

    Just because the AAC turns them down for a given role doesn't mean they didn't join on a given date in the past.

    Someone who isn't suitable for a SL role may be found suitable as an ASL or a member of a service team etc too.

    Joining date is the date you joined not the date you became a member.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    ...Joining date is the date you joined, not the date you became a member.
    Indeed. Some roles do not require the applicant to become a member.

    Thus, the information in the box should not be mandatory.

    Technically, a parent of a young person who has made the Promise has "joined Scouting", because when their child has joined, they became a member of the Group or District Scout Council.
    MatSav


    GSL 10th Feltham, Nights Away Adviser
    "Three Into One Will Go!"
    Thameside Grand Union District
    Scouting Throughout the London Borough of Hounslow
    in the Districts formerly known as Feltham, ABC, and H&I

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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Fair points.

    Mind you, I am not sure that many parents will think that they have "joined Scouting" when their their little Johnny or Jane make the Beaver promise!
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


    A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. Lao Tzu (600 BC - 531 BC)

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    Similarly, I may have a Scout come to 'try out' our Explorer unit. They may already be a member of the Scout Association, but as far as I am concerned they are not a member of our unit until they have been invested, regardless of if the Scout Leader thinks they have left the troop.

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    Senior Member David Kendall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeGH View Post
    Remember the ypif form had been successfully trialled in two counties for months ��
    Really ? Why didn't they speak up (or perhaps their own existing forms were even worse !).
    In between roles/helping out where I can......

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