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Thread: RE: procedures and leaders

  1. #31
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    When a bully becomes a Leader, a GSL, a DC, a CC or whatever in a movement, that movement sanctions that Leader's behaviour.

    One does not generally become a DC or a CC without being known.

    The problem is that many people have no real concept of what bullying actually is. So they don't see it, and they put it down to "personality clashes".
    Ewan Scott

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  2. #32
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    All, thanks for the helpful and constructive comments. Ive decided to have a "few days off" so I'm taking myself offline until next weekend. I will read, reread and think. Ive decided that "i will not go down with out a fight" (independence day film quote!!!) so i will be actioning this as a priority when i'm back in the good old UK!!!

    Once again thanks.

  3. #33
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    When a bully becomes a Leader, a GSL, a DC, a CC or whatever in a movement, that movement sanctions that Leader's behaviour.
    that's a very negative way of looking at it!

    i do not believe there is a widespread bullying culture in the movement and i do not believe the movement, TSA in particular, sanctions or supports bullying behaviour.

    however, bullying is increasing in the workplace and in society and we would be naive to think it's not a problem in places in scouting as it quite clearly seems to be from anecdotal evidence, from what we hear here and in our scouting communities, and from the (likely) increased number of complaints received. (i have no evidence or knowledge but cannot believe we get complaints just once in a blue moon.)

    One does not generally become a DC or a CC without being known.
    whoa there my friend! let's not point accusing fingers. one should not think that the issue of bullying is the reserve of middle and senior managers in the movement. it is a potential issue throughout the movement simply because it's increasingly a problem in the workplace and society.

    we have a lot of very good DCs and CCs.

    The problem is that many people have no real concept of what bullying actually is. So they don't see it, and they put it down to "personality clashes".
    that is true. what is also true is that some people see personality clashes as instances of bullying. what is true is that personality clashes and strong differences of opinion can lead to increased potential for the occurrence of bullying.

    we all have different definitions and views of bullying.

    my definition is: bullying is repeated intimidation intentionally done by a more powerful person (not necessarily physically) or group in order to cause emotional and/or physical harm. bullying always seems to have three key factors/agents: deliberate and intended aggression (phyiscal, verbal, emotional, racist, sexual, cyber); the aggression results in pain or distress (physical and emotional); there is an unequal balance of power present to from which the bully can draw leverage.

    i don't believe i am a bully or have been involved in bullying. it's true that i don't suffer fools gladly and at times can be demanding of people but that's because i like to think that i have my own high standards to keep.

    i have a lot of responsibility in my 'caretakering' role and i am supposedly the 'authority' in the group but i have to answer to my operational team, my group scouters' meeting, and my management team, my group executive committee, who both represent my scouting community. i am, and remain, their servant. there is no unequal balance of power.

    of course there are times and places when SMs don't exist or are seemingly not allowed, or dominated. there are probably more time and places when ECs don't exist or are constructed and dominated with one person or group of people in mind.

    the seemingly lack of respect for the authority of POR in places is worrying. (POR doesn't help itself though!)

    the potential for bullies to appear, or for people to become bullies, increases when the necessary 'checks and balances' on authority are not evident; when people don't get involved; or when systems and processes are weak.

    NB: potential. we do sometimes get benevolent autocrats which some people welcome.

    however.....

    we need to work on some things in scouting.

    9.1, need i say more?

    EC's must have the number of nominated members severely reduced. (i propose chairman only.) the vast majority of members of ECs must be openly elected. there must be a mandatory 28 notice for AGMs and call for elections to ECs. there is a perception by many that some ECs are loaded. should there be an election list for ECs? should there be a ballot?

    while there might not be a need or call for an election list and ballot for GECs, is there the same case for DECs?

    how many have seen a list and ballot at the DAGM?

    (not being one for the rules - i would generally defer to the experts on 1st FB - i think there may be a rule/policy to say that if just one member of a scouting council calls for a ballot - even a secret one - then such a ballot must be held.)

    i have been to many AGMs in my time - not just local to auchtermuchty - and read many annual reports. in many i have struggled to comprehend who are the EC members and how they have been appointed.

    anyhow, i digress. there are others, which someone can start a new thread to discuss!

    i am thankful (lucky?) i have not had many of your scouting experiences and run-ins. these may have coloured your view of things; likewise, my different experiences have likely coloured my views.

    we will have to agree to disagree on some points?

    but i think we can agree that bullying is increasing in society, is becoming a problem in the workplace, and there is at least a potential for it in scouting, or is happening in places, that must not be ignored, yes?

    regards,

    TM
    going...going...still here...just

  4. #34
    Senior Member Walsallwizard's Avatar
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    Some of the problems with not only identifying a bully and bullying behaviour is that it is often insidious in nature, it occurs quietly, discreetly and often leaves the individual partly believing that they have done something wrong, they begin to doubt themselves and often start to think that it is something that is their fault or something they deserved

    We do not have a democratic movement there is almost no way to oust a poor caretaker except from above and only then if they have done something substantially wrong or have fell out of favour with those above them

    Most conflicts can be resolved however this can only occur if there can be compromise without prejudice but remember I said that most, some conflicts cannot be resolved and then a parting of the ways maybe the best for those involved.
    Richard Fenton
    CSL 1st Hartburn Sea Scouts (Graham Mellanby's Own)
    www.hartburnseascouts.org


  5. #35
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    I have no reason to believe that bullying is on the increase. If anything, there is much more awareness and intolerance towards it than ever. It has always existed, and probably always will.

    I think that within the leader setting, some people who are appointed to positions of authority and accountability are ill-prepared to handle the situation. They are unsure what they are supposed to be doing, what it means to be in authority. It feels like they are herding cats, and have to resort to bullying tactics in order to keep control. I think it's a mild form of the prisoner/prison guard experiment where the person put in control feels they need to dominate those they are there to 'control'.

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  7. #36
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I'm going to stand up and admit that in my time as a GSL I have been called a bully twice by two sets of parents. Maybe they were correct, but most of the kids and parents who have jumped across to Navigators don't seem to think so.

    1/ I had never had to discipline their child. He was exemplary in behaviour, perhaps too good at times. Some of you may remember my episode with the Explorers who went AWOL on a hike and when they arrived back and I asked them where they had been, I got lip from the lad whose home they had gone to and before I could get into a rant, the first lad's mother, whose son had nothing to do with the incident, inervened and started calling me a bully. I was gobsmacked. I don't know to this day where it came from. I was only stopped from resigning by a protest from other Scouts and parents who backed me 100%.

    2/ We had a lad who had moved from another Group, whose SL was grinning from ear to ear that he had gone. I asked him why? He said, you'll find out soon enough. Well he was disruptive, he bullied younger kids, he was a coward (strong stuff) but he cried at the slightest challenge. Between him and his mate I spent about 25% of most meeting nights dealing with their behavioural issues. Well, the lad decided that he didn't want to come to Explorers, and his mum came and told me that it was because he was a bully. I didn't argue. However, two weeks in to his membership of Explorers, this lad and his mate were pratting about just as they did in Scouts. As they did so, they looked at me expecting a reaction. They got none. When I had time, I took them aside and told them. "I'm just the caretaker here. Explorers stand or fall by what they do here. I don't deal with discipline here, the Explorers do. So, you carry on pratting about and disrupting things and I suspect that you will make quite a few people very unhappy." They both resigned the following week because I had been bullying them... ho humm . The week they resigned, there were photographs on FB of the pair with some local toerags knocking back cheap cider on a local park bench (aged 14).

    Maybe I do come across as a bully to some people, but I have other kids come and tell me that I'm being soft and they prefer when I'm harder on them because it gives them a sense of where the line is drawn. I sometimes think, with Leaders and young people we can't always win.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  8. #37
    Senior Member Shaun's Avatar
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    I sometimes think that some parents definition of a bully is someone who say's, "no" to their child.
    When I was the cub leader, I lost count of the number of times I would explain to the new parent how I ran the pack, get the response, "good he needs some discipline" then get the reason the child had left was that I was too strict.
    Shaun

    SL
    Hanging Heaton Scout Group

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  10. #38
    Senior Member David Kendall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    I sometimes think that some parents definition of a bully is someone who say's, "no" to their child.
    When I was the cub leader, I lost count of the number of times I would explain to the new parent how I ran the pack, get the response, "good he needs some discipline" then get the reason the child had left was that I was too strict.
    Suggesting he got no discipline at home which is where it should begin ?
    In between roles/helping out where I can......

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  12. #39
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I sometimes think, with Leaders and young people we can't always win.
    True dat.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

  13. #40
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    Hello all,

    Sorry for the hiatus from posting, but its been mad....... A wee update, and the team who walked away have joined and resurrected the 45th Belfast Scout Group. its been running since September and we have nearly 40 Young People in the 3 sections now.

    thank you all for your help.

    BillyG245

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