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Thread: RE: procedures and leaders

  1. #1
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    RE: procedures and leaders

    hi billyg245!

    bullying is unacceptable at all levels in the movement. if you suspect bullying or are being bullied you should report it to your line manager, the GSL in a group, or the DC. likewise if you suspect that POR is being knowingly or deliberately broken by fellow leaders.

    i would always encourage whistleblowing.

    in the case of potential safeguarding issues, you should make note of this: safeguarding info for managers - https://members.scouts.org.uk/suppor...h/?cat=562,587

    if you believe there is a potential safeguarding issue then you must report it.

    do not let problems and issues fester! many leaders are reluctant to make a complaint but often it is the only and best way.

    have a look at: resolving complaints - http://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/3982

    if you need advice on the complaints process then have a talk with the scout information centre on 0845 300 1818

    people here on escouts can't publicly provide you with specific advice.

    the ukcc can't help you on specific matters too.

    please do not get stressed or depressed. there are people who can help you.

    also, please respect others when they say they do reserve the right to hear the other side before offering any advice.

    HTH

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 17-02-2015 at 01:16 PM.

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    I've no problems about letting no you hear the other side. And I respect anyone who wants to refuse to comment before hearing anything from other parties. There is one thing about me, however, I don't and never will distort facts. If I say it, then it's accurate.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Be aware that if you blow the whistle, your chances of becoming a pariah are high.

    The great difficulty is that a great many people in Scouting ( or any environment break the rules intentionally or by ignorance on a daily basis, and if you have blown the whistle on your GSL ( for example), then they ask, who else will he blow the whistle on? People will be careful of what they say in front of you. You can find yourself walking a lonely path regardless of how right you are.

    And Scouting is no different from any other bureaucracy when it comes to whistleblowers.

    If it is a safeguarding issue, make the calls, if you have to, bypass the DC and go direct. You can, and I would advise this, go through the NSPCC rather than the SA. Child protection is the one area where you should have no issues with making a report. No-one can condone abuse.
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Be aware that if you blow the whistle, your chances of becoming a pariah are high.
    And are the same if I report safeguard issues are they not?

    The great difficulty is that a great many people in Scouting ( or any environment break the rules intentionally or by ignorance on a daily basis, and if you have blown the whistle on your GSL ( for example), then they ask, who else will he blow the whistle on? People will be careful of what they say in front of you. You can find yourself walking a lonely path regardless of how right you are.
    So by this thought process then I might as well not bother either reporting anything or remaining a leader. Is that the way scouts is? If you follow the rules, you are ignored by others and sent to Coventry?

    And Scouting is no different from any other bureaucracy when it comes to whistleblowers.
    Other bureaucracy do not deal with child protection issues!!

    If it is a safeguarding issue, make the calls, if you have to, bypass the DC and go direct. You can, and I would advise this, go through the NSPCC rather than the SA. Child protection is the one area where you should have no issues with making a report. No-one can condone abuse.
    So, in this instance to avoid doubt, you are advising me that I should forgo the yellow card and safeguarding training and ignore Scouts as a more effective means is NSPCC? Or is this to avoid me being seen as a troublemaker in the scheme of things? I feel that unless the SA support those who intentionally try to make things right then there is great failings within the Association.

    Not being negative, nor getting at you, nor others but I'm a realist and I think this needs dealt with ASAP

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I will PM ypou.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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  9. #6
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    i have noted the following from billy g245:

    Well, here we are a few months down the line, same sh1t different day.

    I'm soooo close to throwing my warrant in and regaining my sanity and weekends and nights. And so starts my tale of woe.

    I'm still being bullied by a certain leader. They have now decided to get one or two of their friends to write letters into my GSL accusing me of making statements etc. now, when I was told this by my GSL my jaw hit the floor. I was not allowed to hand in any anonymous complaints from parents, but there were 'anonymous' complaints about the handing out of badges willy nilly.

    I've tried to tolerate this [email protected] long enough and now it's personal against me. My question and the responses I'm looking for are, are we allowed to take our group leader and executive to court for harassment and for slandering or libel? Or is it the HQ of scouts, for knowing that this is happening (see above) and not doing more to help leaders in similar situations?

    Thanks
    hello once more!

    i am extremely saddened to read this update from you.

    i will repeat myself, because this is a message i would like everyone to hear: bullying is unacceptable, be it in scouting, in work, in school, in the home.

    in scouting we are honour bound by our promise to stamp it out.

    i have been bullied in the workplace. it was not nice. it can cause work-related stress, which can lead to depression and even worse. i have been at that low-point, i know how it feels, and i don't ever want to go there again.

    i will not tolerate any form of bullying in scouting, neither will the ukcc, HQ, and any of our friends here.

    scouting will not abandon you.

    your GSL must act. your DC must act.

    can i urge you to speak to the scout information centre, who will hopefully put you in touch with the necessary support mechanisms, and then to look at the complaints procedure?

    go back to the UKCC's reply and activate what he said.

    this will be tough and you need to stay strong.

    i'm not a great personal help in these matters, my colleague bushfella is better, but you do need to elevate this now to the scouting authorities. this needs a bigger caretaker than me.

    thinking of you.

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 15-05-2015 at 10:09 AM.
    going...going...still here...just

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    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    I think TM has said most of what needs to be said.

    However, i think it is also important to say...

    Escouts is not the right place for this one. Wayne has given you his email address, and I am sure he will check his emails more regularly than he checks Escouts. As TM says, the info centre would be a wise port of call as well.

    Bullying is not acceptable anywhere or at any age. However, (and please don't take this as a criticism) the nature of Escouts is that we only hear one side of the story. There are people better placed to offer you the help and support that you need and deserve - please go and seek them.

    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Be aware that if you blow the whistle, your chances of becoming a pariah are high.....
    And you absolutely shouldn't let other's experiences prevent you from doing what's right. Merryweather's first response says it all really, there's excellent advice there.

  14. #9
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    Escouts is not the right place for this one. Wayne has given you his email address, and I am sure he will check his emails more regularly than he checks Escouts. As TM says, the info centre would be a wise port of call as well.
    is it the right place? no and yes.

    no it's not the right place for it to become personal. no it's not the right place to touch on specifics. no it's not the right place to only talk here and not seek advice from supporters and those better placed in these instances.

    yes it is the right place to talk about bullying, how to recognise it, how to tackle it, how to defeat it. yes it is the place to draw people's attention to the fact that bullying doesn't just happen between young people and only in school. we have a serious problem, imo, with bullying between adults, particularly in the workplace these days. we must guard against such things pervading scouting. i think we need to do a lot more in our training about bullying by adults of adults. i think our complaints procedure needs to be aware of this potentially horrible thing getting into scouting. (yes we have disputes between adults - c'est la vie - but when they include acts of bullying....) we need to be aware. we need to be alert. we also need to be aware of our adult culture and encourage a much more open, tolerant and teamworking attitude. we need to have a whistle-blowing culture and ask ourselves what barriers may prevent us from doing so. all of these things can include issues concerning bullying and we must discuss, in our groups, in our districts, in our counties, and here. the subject of bullying must not become taboo.

    Bullying is not acceptable anywhere or at any age. However, (and please don't take this as a criticism) the nature of Escouts is that we only hear one side of the story.
    that is a limitation which we all need to recognise and can be avoided by leaving the personal to one side and out of discussion here.

    There are people better placed to offer you the help and support that you need and deserve - please go and seek them.
    absolutely. there are better people than those here. people here can provide help in terms of experiences and ideas which may support cognitive therapies; however, there are better people placed to handle the root causes, complaints and outcomes.

    hopefully the OP has been in touch with the SIC.

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 15-05-2015 at 10:51 AM.
    going...going...still here...just

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    Thanks guys, really appreciate your thoughts and advise. Yeah, depression is where I'm at. I've just been told I've stress ulcers and my stomach is in the toilet (literally) ���� its just soooo damn annoying. You work like hell for the YP and your parents all support you, then some evil vindictive person can make you feel like jacking it all in and your depressed as you feel your abandoning the YP (who don't see behind the front you put on the be happy and approachable) so you deal with more and more because of the YP and it makes you ill. I honestly believe I've found why my district cannot attract new leaders etc.
    Once again, thanks, (one very unwell) BillyG��

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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    yes it is the right place to talk about bullying, how to recognise it, how to tackle it, how to defeat it. yes it is the place to draw people's attention to the fact that bullying doesn't just happen between young people and only in school. we have a serious problem, imo, with bullying between adults, particularly in the workplace these days. we must guard against such things pervading scouting. i think we need to do a lot more in our training about bullying by adults of adults. i think our complaints procedure needs to be aware of this potentially horrible thing getting into scouting. (yes we have disputes between adults - c'est la vie - but when they include acts of bullying....) we need to be aware. we need to be alert. we also need to be aware of our adult culture and encourage a much more open, tolerant and teamworking attitude. we need to have a whistle-blowing culture and ask ourselves what barriers may prevent us from doing so. all of these things can include issues concerning bullying and we must discuss, in our groups, in our districts, in our counties, and here. the subject of bullying must not become taboo.
    I agree totally... we should be discussing how to ensure that bullying, and bullies, cannot prevail either among adults or young people in Scouting.

    However, as this is a personal and individual case, I don't think it is appropriate for it to be discussed in too much detail here, and I am sure that the Escouts Team will be monitoring the thread carefully.

    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

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    Ps, according to my GSL I'm banned from going to the SIC without his express permission and I must notify him in advance. I'm not allowed any contact with anyone in scouting with out his consent as "people are talking about me going to the SIC and asking questions" etc. is this also correct, or like I thought, when I'm with my group wearing their scarf he's my line manager, but outside that I can go direct to Gilwell etc to ask for information?

    By the way, it is personal, but I'm not including anything in relation to whom I'm referring etc. Also, there is nothing contained that is incorrect or inaccurate. I know I'm only a name and avatar to you all, but those that know me can vouch for my honesty and integrity.
    Last edited by BillyG245; 15-05-2015 at 11:03 AM.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Your health, mental, physical, is the most important thing. Look after that first.

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    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyG245 View Post
    Ps, according to my GSL I'm banned from going to the SIC without his express permission and I must notify him in advance.
    Well that's just ball cocks.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyG245 View Post
    Thanks guys, really appreciate your thoughts and advise. Yeah, depression is where I'm at. I've just been told I've stress ulcers and my stomach is in the toilet (literally) ���� its just soooo damn annoying. You work like hell for the YP and your parents all support you, then some evil vindictive person can make you feel like jacking it all in and your depressed as you feel your abandoning the YP (who don't see behind the front you put on the be happy and approachable) so you deal with more and more because of the YP and it makes you ill. I honestly believe I've found why my district cannot attract new leaders etc.
    Once again, thanks, (one very unwell) BillyG��
    Billy

    I hope that you have managed to speak to the Info Centre, and/or to contact Wayne directly.

    I don't know how the structure in Northern Ireland (as per your displayed location) works in terms of counties / regions / areas but it is probably worth following up the line management chain until you find someone who is neutral (they will exist)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyG245 View Post
    Ps, according to my GSL I'm banned from going to the SIC without his express permission and I must notify him in advance. I'm not allowed any contact with anyone in scouting with out his consent as "people are talking about me going to the SIC and asking questions" etc. is this also correct, or like I thought, when I'm with my group wearing their scarf he's my line manager, but outside that I can go direct to Gilwell etc to ask for information?
    If the situation wasn't so serious, this bit would almost be laughable in terms of your GSL's attempts to stop you contacting anyone else in Scouting without his consent. This sounds like someone clutching at straws to prevent you being able to speak freely.

    Any leader can contact the SIC... or anyone else in scouting for that matter... whether or not they are "wearing the group's scarf" at the time.

    At the end of the day, you are a volunteer. You can walk at any time. You can blow the whistle at any time, and you can speak to whoever within the movement you wish, whenever you wish. Whether that's emailing Wayne, talking to your County Commissioner or Regional Commissioner, phoning the info centre, or talking to the GSL at a neighbouring group, your GSL cannot stop you.
    Last edited by recneps; 15-05-2015 at 11:07 AM.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but Merryweather's advice is all well and good if you believe that the system works. I don't think it does. I don't trust it and I have good reason not to trust it.

    Make a complaint and you become a pariah. If you make a complaint through Safeguarding, the source of the complaint is identifiable. I have made referrals through Safeguarding and through the NSPCC. I know which was better handled from my point of view.

    I cannot go into the details of why the complaint that went through Safeguarding was a poor experience. It just was poorly handled and as a result the subject of the complaint was never investigated, he should, at least have been suspended pending an inquiry.

    When you make a complaint, you have to be prepared to handle everything that goes with it.

    I challenged a bullying leader. I reported him, as did a couple of parents.
    The outcome was that I was told that I should not have challenged him but just made the complaint afterwards. Screw that! My first responsibility is to young people, not the feelings of a 6ft 6, RSM bawling and shouting at kidsover something they had not been responsible for.

    I challenged understating Census returns. I proved the case. Nothing was done. I was causing trouble.

    We had damage done at the campsite. I wanted to speak to the Leaders of the Group involved. I was told just to let them be not to upset them by challenging them about vandalism.

    When a parent told my Leaders she didn't trust them. I told her that her son couldn't then go on camp with those Leaders. I faced a full investigation with all my Leader who had been present at the time cross examined about my behaviour. I was vindicated. My independent witness who I had called in to observe the interrogation I faced made a written report saying that he believed the accusation should never have come to a full blown investigation. Privately, he told me that he thought it was vindictiveness on the part of the DC.

    Not everyone is up to taking the flak that comes with whistleblowing and in bureaucratic matters, policy matters, they must be allowed to respond as they see fit. I'd go as far as saying that most people, especially in scouting, turn a blind eye to issues, or, they leave. Merryweather urged me to stay and fight from within. But the fight was over. When they took away my responsibilities as GSL they destroyed my role. When they pushed the destruct buttons with my wife, they won the battle. I could not stay. My wife is far more important to me than the Scout Association. We carry on our little guerrilla war locally, by doing the best we can for young people, by putting young people first.

    In the case of safeguarding. They MUST make the call, but whether they go through Scouting or they go through a third party is up to them. I would go through a third party. ( Now, I would go direct to the local authority safeguarding team).

    Ever wondered why they want Safeguarding issues to go through the DC? Could it perhaps be to head things off at the pass? Remove the problem before it hits the fan? I've seen that happen a couple of times. Well, go through the NSPCC and there is no-one running interference. It is recorded and has to be acted upon properly.
    Last edited by Bushfella; 15-05-2015 at 11:12 AM.
    Ewan Scott

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