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  1. #61
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    I think you are confusing the "Community Building".

    The donations need to be made in the "Community Building" by the definition here that will be the supermarket you are bag-packing in not the Scout Hut. You need to reassess based on that.

    I would say that as long as the supermarket had at least 6 bag packs a tax year (doesn't say you have to do them all yourself) then I would say the supermarket would qualify as a Community Building.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

  2. #62
    AESL & AGSL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvanOpinion View Post
    Condition (d) is also OK, I think. The guidance says (at 8.2) that you can't claim for:
    donations where the donor or someone connected to them has received a benefit from you as a result (gifts with negligible value such as a lapel sticker are allowed)
    Packing someone's bag is a lot more than a sticker. Is this still a gift? In substance, the donation is clearly a gift, because no-one would pay anything to have their bag packed if it were the fee for a service. It is just a nicer way of asking for a donation than simply shaking a tin. HMRC accepts that subscriptions count as a gift, so I feel fairly happy that this is, too.
    Just to pick up on this, HMRC have not defined subscriptions as a gift, they allow membership fees to be treated as a donation so long as certain requirements are met https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gift-aid...s-can-claim-on

    I would say that for bag packing you are asking for donations and coincidentally offering to pack people's bags. Certainly when we have done bag packing we have happily packed bags for people that have made no donation as we are clear there is no condition of giving a donation in order for us to pack their bags.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Assistant Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    The donations need to be made in the "Community Building".
    I don't think this is correct under the new rules. The government guidance says (at 8.2):
    Charities claiming under the community building rules can collect donations at any time (not just during charitable activities) as long as:

    • the building qualifies as a community building
    • the donations are collected in the same Local Authority area as a community building

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Just to pick up on this, HMRC have not defined subscriptions as a gift, they allow membership fees to be treated as a donation so long as certain requirements are met https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gift-aid...s-can-claim-on

    I would say that for bag packing you are asking for donations and coincidentally offering to pack people's bags. Certainly when we have done bag packing we have happily packed bags for people that have made no donation as we are clear there is no condition of giving a donation in order for us to pack their bags.
    Good point. We are the same. Packing is not conditional on payment and we have no interest in guilt-tripping people into donating.

    I'm starting to think this is a deliberate attempt to fix the problem of the connection rule stopping claims by scouts, guides, and other similar charities. Though if it is, they don't seem to have publicised it well. If my interpretation is right, then GASDS is now primarily a per-Community Building claim, with an option to use a single nationwide 8k instead, if you don't have community buildings.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvanOpinion View Post
    Good point. We are the same. Packing is not conditional on payment and we have no interest in guilt-tripping people into donating.

    I'm starting to think this is a deliberate attempt to fix the problem of the connection rule stopping claims by scouts, guides, and other similar charities. Though if it is, they don't seem to have publicised it well. If my interpretation is right, then GASDS is now primarily a per-Community Building claim, with an option to use a single nationwide 8k instead, if you don't have community buildings.
    So does our church hall make the grade as a CB?


    Jonathan

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    49th Bournemouth (St. Katherines) Air Scouts
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by not-so View Post
    So does our church hall make the grade as a CB?
    You mean is a church hall a CB for a scout group that holds meetings there? The government guidance says:
    Charities do not need to own a building for it to qualify as a community building.
    So it depends if your use of it meets the test for a CB:
    • your charity must carry out charitable activities in a community building for a group of at least 10 beneficiaries at the same time
    • the beneficiaries do not need to be the same 10 people each time
    • activities must be group activities - 10 beneficiaries being counselled on a one to one basis in 10 separate rooms would not be eligible
    • beneficiaries must not be charged for access to the part of the community building where the charitable activity takes place
    • the charitable activity must also be open to members of the general public (or a section of the public)
    • activities must be run in the building on at least 6 occasions each tax year
    I'd say that as long as scouts don't fall foul of the "general public" bit then I'm becoming increasingly hopeful that any hall used for scout meetings is a CB, so a claim can be made for any small donations collected in the same local authority district as that hall. I might give HMRC a call tomorrow to discuss.

    I note that the old guidance did not include scout huts in the list of examples of CBs.
    But the new one does. Perhaps just wishful thinking, but maybe they are signalling that this is meant to help scout groups?

  7. #67
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    I've found some evidence that seems to support my interpretation. The government briefing note for the Bill that changed the rules seems to confirm that the government intended the 2017 changes would mean Scout Groups are able to claim. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury said in committee (page 6):

    The Government listened to the representations from the uniformed groups. They told us that they welcomed the gift aid small donations scheme, but were unable to benefit fully from the current community buildings rules because most of their fundraising, as Members will know, takes place outside in their local community. The Bill will therefore relax the community buildings rules to allow donations collected outside the building to be counted for community buildings purposes.
    It is implicit in that statement that scout groups' meeting halls are CBs, so the main problem that needed fixing was that they should be able to claim for donations made outside the CB. I'm starting to feel pretty confident about this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And this article in a specialist tax website seems clear:
    Donations made in relation to charitable activities in a community building will in future include those relating to activities in the same local authority area as the community building for example to scout and other youth groups doing bag packs at local supermarkets.
    Again, it is implicit that scout groups have CBs, even though they don't let people wander in off the street to join meetings.

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  9. #68
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    I just spoke to the HMRC Charity Tax helpline and they confirmed that scout huts are Community Buildings and that we can claim for any donations in the same local authority area. They did not mention any conditionality.

    I'm going to start making claims for future small donations.

    Why hasn't Gilwell bothered to tell groups about this? They appear to have made submissions to the government, so they must know about these changes.
    Last edited by IvanOpinion; 13-10-2017 at 11:50 AM.

  10. #69
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvanOpinion View Post

    Why hasn't Gilwell bothered to tell groups about this? They appear to have made submissions to the government, so they must know about these changes.
    I think that way back that was also my point. Gilwell is supposed to support Groups, by disemminating information such as this they could help every group in the country. However, the chain of communiction is somewhat patchy and they may well have made a statement on this and many people didn't get it.

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  11. #70
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    scout website factsheet still says

    "GASDS (Gift Aid Small Donations Scheme) is not available to ScoutGroups/Districts/Counties as they are deemed as ‘connected charities’ by HMRC."


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  13. #71
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvanOpinion View Post
    I just spoke to the HMRC Charity Tax helpline and they confirmed that scout huts are Community Buildings and that we can claim for any donations in the same local authority area. They did not mention any conditionality.
    Is there any definition of "local authority area"? Is it county or district as our usual supermarket is in a different district but same county?
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

  14. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    You can tatoo news on some peoples' foreheads and they will swear that you never told them...
    I had this, this week. A ASL said his GSL did not receive a specific email. As I had sent it out via MailChimp I had a look. A low and behold, that person had opened the email four times.


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  15. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    Is there any definition of "local authority area"? Is it county or district as our usual supermarket is in a different district but same county?
    The guidance explains. In England, it means district.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    scout website factsheet still says

    "GASDS (Gift Aid Small Donations Scheme) is not available to ScoutGroups/Districts/Counties as they are deemed as ‘connected charities’ by HMRC."

    That sounds like they haven't updated. Being connected definitely does not prevent a full community building claim.

  16. #74
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    More mud in the water....

    from https://www.gov.uk/government/public...nity-buildings

    CASCs and charities with fewer than 2 community buildings

    Charities with fewer than 2 community buildings can only claim under GASDS on a maximum of 8,000 of eligible small donations each tax year that are collected anywhere in the UK.

    CASCs don’t have community buildings, so must claim in the same way.

    Charities with 2 or more community buildings

    Charities with 2 or more community buildings should claim either:
    •a top-up payment on donations of up to 8,000 collected in each community building
    •a top-up payment on donations of up to 8,000 collected anywhere in the UK

    If you choose to claim top-up payments for each community building, then only small donations collected in the same Local Authority area will be eligible for top-up payments.





    It would appear that as a Scout Group most likely has only one Community Building (their hut) then the GASDS money does not need to be in the local authority area.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

  17. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    It would appear that as a Scout Group most likely has only one Community Building (their hut) then the GASDS money does not need to be in the local authority area.
    No. Each scout group is, for these purposes, connected with all other scout groups, so "the charity" has thousands of CBs.

    Edit: I've subsequently realised this is not quite right. Being connected does not mean that you are treated as a single charity. That wording in the guidance is wrong. The bit you quote is only true for charities that have no connected charities. The maximum claim for a charity with no connected charities and up to 1 CB is 8k on donations anywhere: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/23/section/1

    If it has more than 1 CB, it can claim 8k per CB (with local authority restriction) or up to 8k nationwide. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/23/section/6

    If you are a charity and you are connected with another charity, then the rules are completely different. You can claim up to 8k per CB in which your charity runs its activities. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/23/section/9

    If you have a connected charity and none of you has a CB in which you run your activities, each of you is limited to an amount equal to 8k divided by the number of connected charities. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/23/section/4

    If a charity connected with you has a CB in which they run their activities, but you don't, you can't claim anything, unless you and all your connected charities make an election for the CB rules not to apply, in which case you go back to the previous rule (8k divided by the number of connected charities). http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/23/section/9A
    Last edited by IvanOpinion; 14-10-2017 at 06:25 PM.

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