Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 345678 LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 116

Thread: Gasds...

  1. #91
    AESL & AGSL shiftypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    12,105
    Thanks
    3,176
    Thanked 1,067 Times in 705 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I need to go and check this, my understanding is that any group that sets itself up to handle money for a charity or a sports club, is supposed to register with HMRC - in theory so that they have a record of your existence should someone be collecting funds in your name... A charity is a charity. if it walks like a duck... exempted or not, the law still has to be complied with.
    Ok so if an unincorporated charity is small enough such that is income is below £5000 per year then they do not have to register with the Charity commission but they can apply to be recognised as a charity by HMRC (not registered as the Charity Comission registers charities) in order to get tax relief as a charity. All registered, excepted and exempted charities do not need to be recognised as charities by HMRC as they are automatically recognised as charities for tax relief purposes but they do need to do so for Gift Aid if they wish to claim that.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Assistant Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  2. #92
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,159
    Thanks
    340
    Thanked 2,605 Times in 1,427 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Ok so if an unincorporated charity is small enough such that is income is below £5000 per year then they do not have to register with the Charity commission but they can apply to be recognised as a charity by HMRC (not registered as the Charity Comission registers charities) in order to get tax relief as a charity. All registered, excepted and exempted charities do not need to be recognised as charities by HMRC as they are automatically recognised as charities for tax relief purposes but they do need to do so for Gift Aid if they wish to claim that.
    I believe that to be the case. It certainly allowed us to claim Gift Aid using that HMRC registration number - that is to say , when we set up Navigators that was the route that we took that enabled navigators as a new "charity" to claim Gift Aid.

    However, only the other week I was discussing this with a local authority co-ordinator and they were completely unaware of this. But then again, they also thought that grants made for the funding of a specific project did not need to go through the charity's account... So, if my group is given £10,000, I don't need to put it through the accounts - even though it will show in my bank statements... not sure how that works... I suspect that he means that it is not recorded as income - rather like TSA AMS is not counted as income. But, I think he is wrong and I will continue to show all income as, well, income.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Bushfella For This Useful Post:

    shiftypete (16-10-2017)

  4. #93
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    192
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by IvanOpinion View Post
    So, AFAICS, each group with a scout hut can now validly claim for bagpacking donations, as long as four conditions are met:
    (a) ...
    (b) their scout hut qualifies as a CB, and
    (c) ...
    (d) bagpacking donations qualify as gifts.
    Just to revisit these other two conditions from my original post, I think it helps to look at the actual legislation.

    Condition (b) should, more correctly, have said "their scout hut is a CB in which the scout group runs charitable activities."

    That's because in the legislation, there are separate rules for what is a CB and whether a charity is running its activities in the CB. The rule for being a CB says:
    “community building”—
    (a) means a building (such as a village hall, town hall or place of worship), or those parts of it, to which the public or a section of the public have access at some or all times
    I would think most scout huts meet this test. They are generally kept locked when not in use and are only open to whoever is booked to use it, but the same is true of village halls. I imagine this rule is intended to mean that a charity's offices are not CBs, because there's no public access. In contrast a section of the public has access to the scout hut, either by hiring it for parties, etc, or by participating in scout meetings (anyone of the right age can become a member).

    In relation to (d), there is a separate GASDS rule for what is a gift. It says:
    There must be no benefits associated with the gift, or any benefits associated with the gift must be of negligible value (for example, a lapel sticker designed to acknowledge the making of a gift).
    This is a concern, because it would be hard to argue that there is no association between bagpacking and the donations people give, even though one is not contingent on the other. One would hope that it would be accepted that having one's bags packed is a trivial benefit, which counts as negligible.

  5. #94
    Scout Leader bellshillscouts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Bellshill, Scotland
    Posts
    124
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 17 Times in 8 Posts
    I read this thread at the time and I thought I'd come back after I received a letter from HMRC (image, hopefully).
    ga sds.jpg

    We're a Scottish scout group, registered as a charity with OSCR and registered to reclaim gift aid with HMRC.
    We have never reclaimed gift aid small donations because I've always believed we're ineligible, for all of the reasons given in this thread.
    However, this official letter, now makes me think we can claim.

    Unfortunately, as is often the case, i don't have a bag pack due or a bucket collection in the pipeline but there's hope for the future?

    Neil

  6. #95
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    3,350
    Thanks
    117
    Thanked 527 Times in 292 Posts
    https://www.gov.uk/claim-gift-aid/sm...nations-scheme

    I read this that I can have GASDS on anything as long as it complies with the first 3 sections

    4. Small donations scheme


    You may be able to claim 25% on:
    •cash donations of £20 or less
    •contactless card donations of £20 or less collected on or after 6 April 2017

    This is called the Gift Aid small donations scheme (GASDS). You don’t need a Gift Aid declaration to claim.

    From 6 April 2016, you can claim up to £2,000 in a tax year or £1,250 for earlier years.

    Who can claim

    Your charity or CASC must have claimed Gift Aid:
    •in the same tax year as you want to claim GASDS
    •without getting a penalty in the last 2 tax years
    •in at least 2 of the last 4 tax years (without a 2-year gap between claims) if you’re claiming on donations made before 6 April 2017

    What you can claim

    Your GASDS claim can’t be more than 10 times your Gift Aid claim. For example, you can claim on £1,000 worth of donations through GASDS if you’ve received £100 of Gift Aid donations in the same tax year.

    You can claim on donations that are eligible for Gift Aid, but not membership fees.

    The next two sections about Community Buildings allows me to claim MORE if they apply but doesn't affect the previous bit.

    Collections in community buildings

    If your charity has a community building (for example a village hall or religious building) you might be able to claim more on donations collected either:
    •in your community building
    •in the same council area as your community building, if you collected the donations on or after 6 April 2017


    For somewhere to count as your community building, you need to have hosted at least 6 charity events there. The events must have all been attended by at least 10 people.

    If your organisation is connected to another charity or CASC

    If one of the charities has a community building, all of the connected charities can either:
    •claim as if they had a community building
    •share a single £8,000 limit - all the charities will need to write to HMRC to do this

    If none of the charities have a community building, or you’re claiming for donations made before 6 April 2017, the connected charities must share a single £8,000 limit.


    If your charity has merged with another charity or CASC you may be able to take on the other charity’s record of good claims.


    My view is evidenced by the last paragraph which only wants records of how much was collected, when it was collected, and when it was paid into a bank. HMRC don't care about the place (i.e. the Community building) unless you are going for the higher limits.


    Am I missing something?
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

  7. #96
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    192
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts
    Kantor, you are referring to a very short summary of the new rules. As the rules are ridiculously complex, a summary is inevitably somewhat misleading. You should go by the detailed guidance: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...nations-scheme
    or by the actual legislation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    I read this that I can have GASDS on anything as long as it complies with the first 3 sections
    The first three sections set out some introductory comments and some of the conditions for a claim. The subsequent sections explain the cap on donations that can be claimed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    The next two sections about Community Buildings allows me to claim MORE if they apply but doesn't affect the previous bit.
    In my view, they do affect the previous bit. HMRC's statement that "...you might be able to claim more on donations..." is poor, because they don't explain what the "more than" is in comparison to. I can see that it might seem to suggest the CB claim is on top of some other GASDS claim, but I am certain that is not the case. If your charity has connected charities, then the most you can claim on is £8k per CB in which your charity runs its activities. See post 75.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    My view is evidenced by the last paragraph which only wants records of how much was collected, when it was collected, and when it was paid into a bank. HMRC don't care about the place (i.e. the Community building) unless you are going for the higher limits.
    I don't think the wording about record keeping implies a CB claim is on top of a non-CB claim. It just means that if your claim is a CB claim, they need more information to judge whether you meet the condition about the collection being in the same district as your CB. If you were not making a CB claim, then the location information is irrelevant, but as a scout group, your only claim will be a CB claim, because you have connected charities and a CB.

  8. #97
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    192
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by bellshillscouts View Post
    I read this thread at the time and I thought I'd come back after I received a letter from HMRC (image, hopefully).
    ga sds.jpg

    We're a Scottish scout group, registered as a charity with OSCR and registered to reclaim gift aid with HMRC.
    We have never reclaimed gift aid small donations because I've always believed we're ineligible, for all of the reasons given in this thread.
    However, this official letter, now makes me think we can claim.

    Unfortunately, as is often the case, i don't have a bag pack due or a bucket collection in the pipeline but there's hope for the future?

    Neil
    Thanks. That seems to be further evidence that we can now claim under the CB rules, because they are writing to a scout group and telling them they can claim. The letter is not quite right, because they appear to be ignoring the fact that scout groups are connected with all other scout groups. But in practice, every scout group is going to have at least one CB, so the letter is broadly giving the right message.

  9. #98
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    3,350
    Thanks
    117
    Thanked 527 Times in 292 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by IvanOpinion View Post
    Kantor, you are referring to a very short summary of the new rules. As the rules are ridiculously complex, a summary is inevitably somewhat misleading. You should go by the detailed guidance: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...nations-scheme
    or by the actual legislation.The first three sections set out some introductory comments and some of the conditions for a claim. The subsequent sections explain the cap on donations that can be claimed.In my view, they do affect the previous bit. HMRC's statement that "...you might be able to claim more on donations..." is poor, because they don't explain what the "more than" is in comparison to. I can see that it might seem to suggest the CB claim is on top of some other GASDS claim, but I am certain that is not the case. If your charity has connected charities, then the most you can claim on is £8k per CB in which your charity runs its activities. See post 75. I don't think the wording about record keeping implies a CB claim is on top of a non-CB claim. It just means that if your claim is a CB claim, they need more information to judge whether you meet the condition about the collection being in the same district as your CB. If you were not making a CB claim, then the location information is irrelevant, but as a scout group, your only claim will be a CB claim, because you have connected charities and a CB.
    The link you've quoted https://www.gov.uk/government/public...nations-scheme supports my view.

    Section 8.2 includes

    Charities can choose whether to claim top-up payments on one of either:
    •up to £8,000 on donations collected anywhere in the UK
    •up to £8,000 for each community building, under the new community buildings rules

    So we can choose the first option and have up to £8000 of collections anywhere in the UK. The community building bit becomes irrelevant in that case.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

  10. #99
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    192
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    The link you've quoted https://www.gov.uk/government/public...nations-scheme supports my view.

    Section 8.2 includes

    Charities can choose whether to claim top-up payments on one of either:
    •up to £8,000 on donations collected anywhere in the UK
    •up to £8,000 for each community building, under the new community buildings rules

    So we can choose the first option and have up to £8000 of collections anywhere in the UK. The community building bit becomes irrelevant in that case.
    If that was all that the guidance says then I'd agree. But the beginning of Section 8.2 says:
    There are a number of factors which affect how much you can claim under the GASDS rules. It’s important to read through all of the guidance in this chapter to make sure that you claim the correct amount.
    So, the wording you rely on is not to be read as a standalone statement. In particular, in relation to the point we are discussing, Section 8.8 is relevant. The start of it says:
    Chapter 8.8: Claim limits
    If one or more connected charities have a community building, then they can only claim a top-up payment under the community building rules and can’t share the £8,000 allowance.
    Therefore, it is clear that you are relying on wording that is irrelevant for a scout group (as they have connected charities and generally have CBs). (Section 8.8 goes on to qualify this statement, explaining that such charities can share the £8k allowance if they all elect to do so. TSA scout groups have not made this election.)

    The actual legislation is clear: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/23/section/9

    (1)This section applies if—

    (a)two or more charities (“connected eligible charities”) are connected with one another in a tax year and are eligible charities for the tax year, and
    (b)one or more of them runs charitable activities in a community building in the tax year.[but see subsection (2).]

    (2)This section does not apply if the condition in section 9A is met.

    (3)Where this section applies, the specified amount for the purposes of section 1(4) for a connected eligible charity for the tax year is determined as follows.

    (4)If the charity runs charitable activities in a community building in the tax year, the specified amount is an amount equal to the sum of the amounts which, for each community building in which the charitable activities are run, is the community building amount.

    (5)The “community building amount”, in relation to a community building, is to be calculated in accordance with section 6(3) to (3B).

    (6)If the charity does not run charitable activities in a community building in the tax year, the specified amount is nil.]
    The 'detailed' guidance is, I will grant you, worded very poorly. They need to start by explaining that there are different rules for charities that have connected charities and those that don't. And that the rules for the former then split depending on whether any of those charities runs charitable activities in a community building in the tax year. Instead, they start as if there is only one set of rules and you have to read quite a way before you learn that most of the first bits of the guidance are only correct for one category of charities. I get the strong impression that the guidance was written by someone who did not entirely understand the rules themselves, but decided to wing it and hope that their boss did not spot it.
    Last edited by IvanOpinion; 13-01-2018 at 12:44 PM.

  11. #100
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    192
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts
    Kastor,

    Out of curiosity, is there a particular reason why you are keen to satisfy yourself that a scout group can claim on £8k without making a CB claim? Every scout group must have a hall where it holds meetings, which is therefore a CB in which it runs charitable activities. So, as long as your cash collections are in the same local authority district as that CB, you can claim on up to £8k. I'm wondering if perhaps your concern is that your collections are in a neighbouring LA district, so you can't make a CB claim.

    For any group facing that problem, it might be worth considering if there is a public building in the right LA district that might count as a CB in which your group runs charitable activities. You can have more than one CB. For instance, what about hiring use of part of a sports centre or swimming pool? If your group visits 6 times a year, then it might count. (If you only visit 4 times a year, perhaps worth arranging 2 more visits?) Or what about some joint meetings with a neighbouring group at their hut?

    There are, however, a few conditions to be aware of.

    First, any part of a building that is "used for commercial purposes" cannot be a CB, unless your charity has exclusive use of that part of the building when you use it. (www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/23/section/8)
    I would guess that a local authority pool or sports centre counts as commercial, as they generally make entry/usage charges to users. So you would need exclusive use of at least one room within the complex. This could just be a meeting room for refreshments after the swim/game or a changing room.

    Second, you are only considered to be "running charitable activities in the CB" if none of the participants is required to pay to access the building, or the part of the building, in which the activity is carried out. (www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/23/section/7)
    I interpret that as meaning that the scout group must be meeting the full entry costs itself (albeit from subscriptions or other general funds), without any specific charge to parents for the activity.

    If you can't identify a CB in the right district (and you can't relocate your cash collections to the same district as your hut), then you seem to be out of luck, because section 9(6) of the Small Charitable Donations Act 2012 makes clear that the maximum amount of donations on which you can claim is zero.
    Last edited by IvanOpinion; 14-01-2018 at 02:26 PM.

  12. #101
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    3,350
    Thanks
    117
    Thanked 527 Times in 292 Posts
    I've given up on the Community Building bit as the LA area we bag pack in is in a different one from the one our hut is in.

    I'm more interested in whether there is any definitive statement about whether we are a connected charity.

    As we have our own charity number, our own exec (controlling persons), and our purposes are unique (provide scouting to OUR members) then we are not connected hence can have the "up to £8,000 on donations collected anywhere in the UK".

    Now I'm sure you will come back and say we are connected but what evidence/proof do you have that we are?

    Below is from HQ denying any control of the Group.


    To Whom It May Concern

    Dear Sirs,

    Re: XXXX Scout Group
    The Scout Association (TSA) Registered Charity No: 306101

    We write to confirm that the above Group is a registered scout unit with TSA under Registration number xxxx.

    By way of background, TSA is a national charity incorporated under Royal Charter which, amongst other matters, enables Scout Units to register themselves so that they can operate officially. TSA also provides them with training, guidance and rules to abide by. These rules are found in our Policy, Organisation and Rules (POR) which can be accessed at http://www.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/71. Where relevant, POR also provides scout units with a Constitution.

    Importantly, all Scout Units registered with TSA are set up as independent charities. TSA has no responsibility for the management of Scout Units, its land or affairs: this is and remains the responsibility of the local Executive Committee who are the Charity Trustees of the Scout Unit. Whilst TSA is sometimes referred to as an Umbrella Organisation for scouting, we are not the 'Parent Organisation' of Scout Units due to our limited role. Please note, Scout Units are not permitted to use or represent TSA's charity registration number as their own in any circumstances.

    As you may already be aware and by way of confirmation, not all charities have to be registered with the Charity Commission in order to be classed as a charity and, in the particular case of Scout Units there is an exception whereby registration is not mandatory unless the likely income of the Unit is £100,000 p.a. or more or they own certain types of land/property interests. Some Scout Units choose to register on a voluntary basis which is purely a matter for them. However, in this matter, although the above Scout Unit may not be registered with the Charity Commission, it is nevertheless still a charity within its own right.

    We hope the above is useful and please do not hesitate to contact us if you require anything further.
    Last edited by Kastor; 14-01-2018 at 05:08 PM.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

  13. #102
    Senior Member Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Ruislip Middlesex
    Posts
    757
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 25 Times in 21 Posts
    Apologies for jumping on someone else's thread but I thought I'd ask here rather than start another one: We are going through the process of registering with HMRC and they have asked for our Governing Document - any idea what they are asking for ?

    TIA
    Mark
    You can contact Mark via www.4theastcotescouts.org.uk

  14. #103
    AESL & AGSL shiftypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    12,105
    Thanks
    3,176
    Thanked 1,067 Times in 705 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Apologies for jumping on someone else's thread but I thought I'd ask here rather than start another one: We are going through the process of registering with HMRC and they have asked for our Governing Document - any idea what they are asking for ?

    TIA
    If you are a registered Charity then it is whatever you governing document mentioned in your Charity Commission entry is (for some reason this is often given as the Scout Associations Royal Charter or the whole of POR). If you are an excepted Charity not registered with the Charity Commission then it is your Group's cosonsitution which is usually the ideal one set out in POR Rule 3.23 unless you have spefically adopted a diffferent consitution.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 14-01-2018 at 06:08 PM.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Assistant Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  15. #104
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,159
    Thanks
    340
    Thanked 2,605 Times in 1,427 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Apologies for jumping on someone else's thread but I thought I'd ask here rather than start another one: We are going through the process of registering with HMRC and they have asked for our Governing Document - any idea what they are asking for ?

    TIA

    I sent them a link to POR... they seemed happy with that.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  16. #105
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    192
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    I'm more interested in whether there is any definitive statement about whether we are a connected charity.

    As we have our own charity number, our own exec (controlling persons), and our purposes are unique (provide scouting to OUR members) then we are not connected hence can have the "up to £8,000 on donations collected anywhere in the UK".

    Now I'm sure you will come back and say we are connected but what evidence/proof do you have that we are?
    My proof was set out in post 39 (reasons which are not contradicted by the letter from TSA). And is corroborated by the fact that the recent changes to widen the rules for CB claims were specifically brought in because it was recognised by our own representative bodies that scout groups are all connected. The government briefing note (http://researchbriefings.parliament....062#fullreport) in relation to the changes gave the following explanation of the reasons for the change (5.1):

    certain groups—the Girl Guides, the Scouts, and the Army, Navy and Air Force cadet groups—were not able to get the full benefit of the small donations scheme. That was after feedback from the respective charities’ representatives that, because of the structure of the groups, they were able to make only one claim for the entirety of the group, even though individual groups within them fund themselves
    I think that to submit a claim on the basis that we are not connected would be what Sir Humphrey would call a courageous decision.
    Last edited by IvanOpinion; 14-01-2018 at 05:20 PM.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to IvanOpinion For This Useful Post:

    shiftypete (14-01-2018)

Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 345678 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •