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Thread: Gasds...

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Gasds...

    So, the end of the financial year approaches and thoughts turn to Gift Aid. Not a big issue spreadsheet completed ready to go. But what about the bagpacking...

    So, I have read the guidance from HMRC, but I seem to recall that some people had claimed on bag packing and I wondered if I was imagining that they had. If they did, how did they manage to comply with the rules on GASDS?
    Ewan Scott

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    So, the end of the financial year approaches and thoughts turn to Gift Aid. Not a big issue spreadsheet completed ready to go. But what about the bagpacking...

    So, I have read the guidance from HMRC, but I seem to recall that some people had claimed on bag packing and I wondered if I was imagining that they had. If they did, how did they manage to comply with the rules on GASDS?
    you're a right tinker!!!



    are you (navigators) eligible for GASDS? you haven't been in existence for 2 years so can't have claimed GA for the required period? (tell me what i'm missing here!)

    i think some groups simply put in a claim for GASDS for their bag-packing activities. my group claims GA but we haven't done any sort of street/bag-packing or GASDS type activities to warrant consideration of claiming.

    there does seem to be an issue with interpreting the legislation.

    the aim of GASDS is to provide a top-up to GA on small donations/collections for the charity for which there doesn't exist a GA declaration or for where the making of a declaration would be an unnecessary extra or expense, for example: someone gives you 20p in a street collection for your charity, clearly a donation, but you stop and get them to make out a GA declaration, they check they're eligible, you process it.....clearly OTT and more expense than the donation!

    the scheme is aimed at small charities, not the big boys who run national small donation schemes, such as flag days; hence, they introduced the stipulation that big charities could not 'split' into small entities through defining their branches as 'separate' entities - the connected charities rule.

    however, they didn't want the small entities to miss out - specifically charitable religious entities who have regular small plate collections - so they restricted these to their community buildings. so the local hospital support/friends charity could claim on donations made at it's monthly tea/coffe mornings it runs in the hospital. parishes could claim on their small weekly plate collections. hence the community buildings rule.

    two facts worth noting. firstly, scout groups are independent charities, many of them in association with TSA. the TSA is a big charitable organisation within the meaning of the legislation. scout groups are not. are they connected? well if we want to go down a six degrees of separation route.... no, they are not as i read it under the intentions of the legislation. (i used to work on friction and lubrication of rubber. you're associated with tyres. tyres are made out of rubber. QED, we must be connected. eh?) groups are not connected charities.

    secondly, most scout groups do not run small donation/collection schemes in their HQs; hence, the community buildings aspect is largely irrelevant.but what about 1st auchtermuchty's monthly jumble sale or car boot sale? 1. we don't run these activities'; 2. they're not eligible anyway! aha, but why not stick a collection box by the door so parents can drop in the odd pound or two when the come to drop off or pick up their kids? eh!!? it would be simpler to just add £5 to subs and claim under hte normal GA schemes! besides do you really think there'd be £500 collected in this box a year to make it worthwhile to have this running? scout groups don't 'fit' the community building aspects of the scheme.

    however, obviously some groups have had their claims questioned and it seems HQ have been informed that claims for bag-packing and such like are ineligible.

    i have no idea which groups have successfully claimed GASDS or which groups, who have claimed, have now been asked to pay back the claim.

    the whole thing is a confusing mess. and it's not just scout groups! iirc, the total claim for GASDS last year came in at just over £7m, when HMRC forecast it would be near £50m.

    GASDS clearly has the intention of supporting small charitable groups, such as scout groups, in fund-raising activities such as bag-packing.

    HQ seems to have (meekly) accepted that scout groups should not be claiming.

    someone from HQ needs to get clarification from HMRC and needs to challenge why we are seemingly being considered as one charitable organisation, when clearly we're not and even the CC says we're not.

    there is something wrong and decidedly smelly when the HMRC is letting itself be danced around by tax evaders in private swiss banks, yet it's intent on not allowing small rebates on charitable donations to hard-working charities who could gainfully use that money for a lot of good in the community.

    so HQ give 'em (HMRC) a call, drop 'em a line, get some MPs on board, and don't take no for an answer!

    but if it is no then we need to campaign to get the law/rules changed/clarified.

    it needs sorting.

    it needs sorting now.

    TM
    going...going...

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    The Scout connection is a bit of a red herring in that we, independent types, can apply for collections in community buildings. Now, HMRC guidance does say that we ( independents) can collect in public places used for commerce. So great, we can claim for bag packing donations... but hang on, what's this? The space used has to be for the exclusive use by the CASC or Charity. it cannot be shared. So, we could run bag packing in the local supermarket and have a collection / donation point at the entrance in an area set aside for that purpose and on that day only for that purpose, but we cannot collect at the point of service.

    The question then, is, will the GASDS element make up for the shortfall in donations if we move all the collection points to the doorway, for example?
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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    IanJames ianjames's Avatar
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    So far I have made 2 claims under Gasds for bag packing on behalf of the group, I have asked questions by phone and never has there been any suggestion we should not be claiming. HMRC have always been very helpful, the paperwork is simple and repayment is speedy. The only draw back I can see is that when donations are banked they must be as donated (5p 1p 10p) in the past we have been able to get the supermarket to take our change giving large notes in exchange. It makes the job of counting and banking so much easier, now it takes 2 of us to carry it the bank.
    Ian Turner
    Cub Leader, TA & ADC Cubs
    2nd & 7th Welwyn Garden City Scout Group


    http://www.wgcscouts.co.uk

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    CTCSL / GSL sitb2000's Avatar
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    Will read more about this later, but see here for the response from my MP. http://www.nanpantanscouts.org.uk/wp...oads/GASDS.pdf
    Simon Parr
    Group Scout Leader - 1st Nanpantan Scouts
    County Cub Scout Leader - Leicestershire Scouts

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    The Scout connection is a bit of a red herring in that we, independent types, can apply for collections in community buildings.
    eh? i think you've misread my words somewhere!

    to claim GASDS you must be eligible.

    1. you must have existed for at least two tax years. iirc, you only left last year!
    2. you must have made a GA claim in 2 of the last 4 years with no more than 2 years between claims. have you made 2 annual GA claims?
    3. not been penalised through your use of GA.

    i thought you were new! are you saying you're eligible to claim GASDS? if so, how come?

    Now, HMRC guidance does say that we ( independents) can collect in public places used for commerce.
    can collect in public places is all it says, iirc.

    So great, we can claim for bag packing donations...
    yes, afaiaa! up tp £5k

    if you also collect in a community building, then that too is eligible (if you're eligible) to another £5k.

    but hang on, what's this? The space used has to be for the exclusive use by the CASC or Charity. it cannot be shared.
    eh? you've now got me confused!

    you seem now to be talking about community buildings. CASCs can't use the community building rules to claim GASDS. charities can but there is a strict definition of community building. a village hall, parish hall, place of worship, town hall are all ok as community buildings. however, TESCOs is not; the local pub is not; the local hotel is not; however, if you have exclusive use of a place/room in the upstairs of the pub or a meeting room in an hotel then these can be treated as a community building.

    in bag packing you are undertaking a public bucket collection. it's got nothing to do with community buildings!

    So, we could run bag packing in the local supermarket and have a collection / donation point at the entrance in an area set aside for that purpose and on that day only for that purpose, but we cannot collect at the point of service.
    you can collect it wherever the supermarket says it's okay! there is no community building's rule operating here!

    The question then, is, will the GASDS element make up for the shortfall in donations if we move all the collection points to the doorway, for example?
    eh? why do you need to move them to the doorway?

    the supermarket is not your community building (CB)!!! you cannot claim the CB element there but you can claim the £5k element for a public collection of small donations.

    the issue with scouts is that someone is saying that because we are a connected charity - i.e. we are just one big charity, TSA - we can only have one claim of £5k for all eligible scout groups. as there are about 5k eligible groups, that means we all get £1 each!

    however, we each can claim under the community buildings part of GASDS for charitable donations made in those buildings. fewer and fewer scout groups now run jumble sales or car boots these days, but anyhow those are not eligible anyway. it really is for things such as collecting boxes left at the door. so how much do you think we'd get in them? why would a parent put money in them when they can easily and already do so through GA on subs and such like? for the few pence one got it would be worthless to make a claim!

    ah but i hear you say, wouldn't it be the same for other places? no. other community buildings use get much more public throughput than scout HQs! churches don't get pennies in heir plates! the local VA society doesn't get pennies in its boxes on tea and coffee mornings, &c.

    there again there's so much confusion about GASDS no wonder everyone seems confused.

    you're getting me confused now!

    TM
    going...going...

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sitb2000 View Post
    Will read more about this later, but see here for the response from my MP. http://www.nanpantanscouts.org.uk/wp...oads/GASDS.pdf
    thank you for this simon!

    respectfully, the rt. hon. nicky morgan mp, secretary of state for education, in her reply has simply given an outline of the intentions of the GASDS, largely summarising information on gov.uk websites, however, on the point about scout groups being considered connected charities (to TSA, and not under an associative 'umbrella') she merely repeats the suggestion (i presume) you made in your e-mail to her. in effect she too believes that scouts is 'one organisation' with different 'branches' and not one association of many different 'organisations' (groups, districts, counties, regions, areas, bailiwicks, &c). she then offers a form of 'compensatory comment' by saying that scout groups don't lose out because the community buildings aspect is the one aspect of GASDS under which we would/could make a claim for GASDS. however, it appears that she does not realise that any qualifying donations in scout HQs would amount to pennies*.

    (afaiaa, we don't have scout groups holding 6 or more fetes, barbecues, fairs and such like in a year at which a collecting box is available for donations. even if there was a box and donations were collected we would not be anywhere near the amount a group would likely collect in 4h of bag-packing at the local supermarket!)

    i don't wish to be rude to your mp, however, the secretary of state has given little useful information here, other than that which could be easily gained from elsewhere.

    the question is why seemingly is HMRC (or some aspects/branches/offices) interpreting scout groups and TSA under the connected charities rules? i've asked hte question here many times - you and others have too simon! the issue is debated on the ncvo pages and has the question about scouts and guides raised there (by ivan opinion who also posted here and others), see: http://blogs.ncvo.org.uk/2014/10/20/...ations-scheme/ (scroll to bottom of page).

    it is frankly bizarre that HMRC treats scout groups as independent (wholly separate) charities for GA purposes. it acknowledges scout groups that are (CC) registered charities as wholly separate (from TSA and other groups/districts/counties) charities. it even gives non-registered (CC) scout groups a separate claim registration number. the CC which is the body responsible for overseeing charity law (in E&W) considers every scout group, district, county, &c, as a separate and independent charity. the TSA is explicitly proscribes use of its charity registration by scout groups for financial matters wholly concerning a scout group. however, all this goes out of the window where GASDS is concerned; for GASDS purposes we are now one big single organisation!

    so here's a question or two or three or four:

    why do scout groups who don't claim GA keep getting e-mails and notices from HQ every year - and it's on the census return too - about signing up for GA because it is a potentially valuable source of income to supplement fund-raising to boost scouting; however, when it comes to GASDS it simply tells us not to claim and to pay back money that has been claimed?

    and why is it that some groups have been able to claim GASDS (on public collections such as bag-packing) but other groups seemingly haven't been able to do so?

    and why is the advice so confusing?

    and the big question: what are we doing about it!!?

    the ncvo has raised questions about how the legislation seems to be interpreted. PCCs in the CofE have raised questions about how the legislation seems to be interpreted. have we raised the question? have gguk raised the question? surely if everyone banged on the door of HMRC.....

    with just a 1/6th of HMRC's own estimate for GASDS claims being taken up, there is clearly an issue and some questions that need answering.

    but is TSA asking the questions on our behalf to get us money, which many believe we are due, or are they too busy spending money on other gimmicks?

    TM
    going...going...

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to merryweather For This Useful Post:

    tonybaulch (13-02-2016)

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianjames View Post
    So far I have made 2 claims under Gasds for bag packing on behalf of the group, I have asked questions by phone and never has there been any suggestion we should not be claiming. HMRC have always been very helpful, the paperwork is simple and repayment is speedy. The only draw back I can see is that when donations are banked they must be as donated (5p 1p 10p) in the past we have been able to get the supermarket to take our change giving large notes in exchange. It makes the job of counting and banking so much easier, now it takes 2 of us to carry it the bank.
    i suspect that banking the actual coins donated is 'supporting evidence' that the donations made are 'small', £20 or less.

    afaiaa, GASDS can only be made on single donations of £20 or less. you cannot claim GASDS on the whole amount for someone giving a £50 note, neither can you claim on the whole amount if they 'break' it into £10 notes! £20 of any single donation is the limit of claim.

    from time-to-time i count collections for another organisation and i count notes and coins and list them by denomination. £50 notes are listed separately. the notes and coins get banked as recieved, i.e. in bags of 1p, 2p, 5p, 10p, 20p, 50p, £1, £2, and note bundles for £5, £10, £20. i do not change any coins into higher denomination notes.

    i am glad to see you collect a lot and that it needs two of you to carry it to the bank.

    hopefully, claims on GASDS will continue and with the receipts you may be able to buy a mule to carry the bags in future?



    TM
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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    eh? i think you've misread my words somewhere!

    to claim GASDS you must be eligible.

    1. you must have existed for at least two tax years. iirc, you only left last year!
    2. you must have made a GA claim in 2 of the last 4 years with no more than 2 years between claims. have you made 2 annual GA claims?
    3. not been penalised through your use of GA.

    i thought you were new! are you saying you're eligible to claim GASDS? if so, how come?

    Did I? I said we independent types, , the "we" being generic. And, as you said, I'm a little tinker :-)

    It was an academic line of thought that popped up when I was dealing with Gift Aid. The bag packing appears to come under aggregated donations of not more than £20 up to £1000 per line.




    can collect in public places is all it says, iirc.



    yes, afaiaa! up tp £5k

    if you also collect in a community building, then that too is eligible (if you're eligible) to another £5k.



    eh? you've now got me confused!

    you seem now to be talking about community buildings. CASCs can't use the community building rules to claim GASDS. charities can but there is a strict definition of community building. a village hall, parish hall, place of worship, town hall are all ok as community buildings. however, TESCOs is not; the local pub is not; the local hotel is not; however, if you have exclusive use of a place/room in the upstairs of the pub or a meeting room in an hotel then these can be treated as a community building.

    in bag packing you are undertaking a public bucket collection. it's got nothing to do with community buildings!



    you can collect it wherever the supermarket says it's okay! there is no community building's rule operating here!



    eh? why do you need to move them to the doorway?
    The definition of ‘community building’

    A community building is a building that the public, or a section of the public have access to at some or all times eg a village hall, town hall or a place of worship.

    Any part of a building that is used mainly for the sale of goods or for living in is not a community building. However, if you have exclusive use of part of a building to carry out your charitable activity eg a meeting room in a hotel, then the meeting room can be treated as a community building.


    So, if the supermarket gave you a defined space for the sole purposes of your collection, then that could apply - the point of sale, the check out would not.


    the supermarket is not your community building (CB)!!! you cannot claim the CB element there but you can claim the £5k element for a public collection of small donations.
    Or maybe you can...

    the issue with scouts is that someone is saying that because we are a connected charity - i.e. we are just one big charity, TSA - we can only have one claim of £5k for all eligible scout groups. as there are about 5k eligible groups, that means we all get £1 each!

    however, we each can claim under the community buildings part of GASDS for charitable donations made in those buildings. fewer and fewer scout groups now run jumble sales or car boots these days, but anyhow those are not eligible anyway. it really is for things such as collecting boxes left at the door. so how much do you think we'd get in them? why would a parent put money in them when they can easily and already do so through GA on subs and such like? for the few pence one got it would be worthless to make a claim!

    ah but i hear you say, wouldn't it be the same for other places? no. other community buildings use get much more public throughput than scout HQs! churches don't get pennies in heir plates! the local VA society doesn't get pennies in its boxes on tea and coffee mornings, &c.

    there again there's so much confusion about GASDS no wonder everyone seems confused.

    you're getting me confused now!

    TM
    Result! :-)
    Ewan Scott

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Did I? I said we independent types, , the "we" being generic. And, as you said, I'm a little tinker :-)

    It was an academic line of thought that popped up when I was dealing with Gift Aid. The bag packing appears to come under aggregated donations of not more than £20 up to £1000 per line.

    The definition of ‘community building’

    A community building is a building that the public, or a section of the public have access to at some or all times eg a village hall, town hall or a place of worship.

    Any part of a building that is used mainly for the sale of goods or for living in is not a community building. However, if you have exclusive use of part of a building to carry out your charitable activity eg a meeting room in a hotel, then the meeting room can be treated as a community building.


    So, if the supermarket gave you a defined space for the sole purposes of your collection, then that could apply - the point of sale, the check out would not.

    Or maybe you can...


    Result! :-)
    you are a tinker!

    trying to turn the local ASDA into a community building by suggesting you have exclusive use of a bit of the entrance hall for your regular meetings is not going to wash with HMRC!

    there again it seemingly turns a blind eye to banks advising clients on how to avoid paying tax.....

    ....you might have a cunning plan there!



    TM
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    CTCSL / GSL sitb2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    thank you for this simon!

    respectfully, the rt. hon. nicky morgan mp, secretary of state for education, in her reply has simply given an outline of the intentions of the GASDS, largely summarising information on gov.uk websites, however, on the point about scout groups being considered connected charities (to TSA, and not under an associative 'umbrella') she merely repeats the suggestion (i presume) you made in your e-mail to her. in effect she too believes that scouts is 'one organisation' with different 'branches' and not one association of many different 'organisations' (groups, districts, counties, regions, areas, bailiwicks, &c). she then offers a form of 'compensatory comment' by saying that scout groups don't lose out because the community buildings aspect is the one aspect of GASDS under which we would/could make a claim for GASDS. however, it appears that she does not realise that any qualifying donations in scout HQs would amount to pennies*.
    When she wrote this, she was Economic Secretary to the Treasury and her remit was GASDS at the time before being promoted to Education Secretary. She is fully aware how Scouts work, her son is in Beavers.
    Simon Parr
    Group Scout Leader - 1st Nanpantan Scouts
    County Cub Scout Leader - Leicestershire Scouts

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I have had lods of parents with kids in beavers. I doubt if many of them understood how Scuting actually worked...
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I have had lods of parents with kids in beavers. I doubt if many of them understood how Scuting actually worked...
    Has Officer Crabtree taken over your keyboard?
    MatSav


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    in the Districts formerly known as Feltham, ABC, and H&I

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Everyone knows I can't type for toffee...
    Ewan Scott

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sitb2000 View Post
    When she wrote this, she was Economic Secretary to the Treasury and her remit was GASDS at the time before being promoted to Education Secretary. She is fully aware how Scouts work, her son is in Beavers.
    i'm not having a dig at her!

    her reply to you was simply regurgitating what is on most gov.uk websites. furthermore, it did not seem to comprehend that most scout groups who raise funds do so primarily in three ways: 1. through subscriptions (which is catered for by GA); 2. by grants (which is irrelevant to this issue); and, 3. from public donations for charitable activities, in days of yore it was bob-a-job, now it's bag-packing at the grocers/supermarket and such like (which is the sort of thing that GASDS is intended to support).

    in her reply it came across that she understood that scout groups were connected charities, simply 'branches' of TSA and not independent charities, and that the relevant bit of the scheme for scouting was the community buildings part. go ask joe public what image do they have of scouting raising funds and they'll tell you: public donations at scouting activities such as bag-packs, car washes and bob-a-job type things. i would be most surprised if anyone said scouts raised funds through donations placed in boxes at tea and coffee mornings in the scout HQ! yes, if were talking about the WRVS in the hospital tea bar (where i'll be in 1h time!)

    but something is wrong with GASDS. the NCVO has pointed this out. even HMRC know there's something wrong given that they expected to repay £50m in GASDS but have only paid out barely £7m! so have HMRC been going to small/micro charities, such as scout and guide groups, asking why they haven't been claiming? doesn't appear so; in fact, it appears from scouts.org.uk they've been asking for money to be repaid!

    IANAL, but i cannot see anything in the legislation or on gov.uk web pages which leads me to think that scout groups are connected charities, in the sense of the relevant act, and that the fact that HMRC, the CC (in E&W), and TSA all say with regard to charity law, all scout groups are independent charities.

    has someone re-defined what is meant by independent? do parents know that scout groups are independent charities? mine do: it says so in the annual report and accounts they get every year! however, i can well understand many people thinking that TSA is not an association but simply an 'association', which to them is meaningless.

    something does not appear to be right.

    we can either accept that there's confusion but tax officer colin's interpretation must be right and we can't claim GASDS and let 20% go. (who cares if we give up £60 from the latest bag-pack? it's not exactly enough to open a swiss bank account is it?)

    or we can ask the questions of HMRC and make sure we get a definitive and accurate interpretation.

    if that does go against scouting and guiding claiming GASDS on small public donations (such as at car washes and bag-packs) we will know then we've got to lobby MPs to get a change in the law.

    but if it goes with us......

    nicky morgan's reply is most welcome and informative, however, it still doesn't answer the basic questions about GASDS or clear up the confusion.

    TM
    going...going...

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