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Thread: Duty to the Queen

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Duty to the Queen

    When they changed the promise, why didn't they change queen to country?

    What happens if I have a British subject that's a republican that wants to be an explorer?
    What happens if I have a British subject that's a republican that wants to be an explorer leader?

    or should I not ask questions I may not want to know the answer to?

    Please note much as I don't like to stifle debate, I'm not asking whether they should or should not be a republican, or whether being a republican is right or wrong.

    Ian
    Last edited by ianw; 17-03-2015 at 08:59 PM.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    You know the answer, Ian. You shouldn't ask. Talk about opening cans of worms...
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    Senior Member DonTregartha's Avatar
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    Can of Worms indeed...


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    Sea Scout Leader richardnhunt's Avatar
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    I've got several US cousins, from two branches of the family. One is a supporter of the Tea Party and comments on their Facebook page. By their standards he is a voice of moderation, but the pure hate filled, ludicrous and plain nasty comments, in huge numbers, have reassertained my belief that the only thing worse than an unelected Head of State is an Elected Head of State.

    Just as a thought experiment, think about reactions to President Blair or President Thatcher. I'll stick with the Queen thanks.

    Rich

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Please note much as I don't like to stifle debate, I'm not asking whether they should or should not be a republican, or whether being a republican is right or wrong. Actually, might edit the original.

    Ian
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    Senior Member DonTregartha's Avatar
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    But how about 'King Charles?'

    I think that will be when I change my promise.

    Our Queen is the only 'Royal' that justifies a loyal oath.


    Don Tregartha
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    Senior Member CambridgeSkip's Avatar
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    A dyed in the wool republican writes.....

    The difference between the royal issue and the God issue is one is a question of fact and one is a question of faith.

    In the UK we have a constitutional monarchy. That means that any pledge of allegiance to the monarch is not done on a personal basis, it is a pledge to the population of the country as a whole. When the monarch appoints the Prime Minister they do so on behalf of the population. When they give royal assent to an act of parliament they do so on our behalf. Similarly with the scout promise none of us has any personal duty to Elizabeth Windsor as an individual, what we are promising is to do our duty to the population of the country.

    Now personally I don't like the constitution. I want it changed. I want a democratically elected head of state. However it is a point of fact that my promise to the Queen is actually one to the 65 million others in this country hence I understand why it wasn't changed.

    It's very different to a promise to God, the existence of who, or indeed otherwise, while being fact is not one that anyone can demonstrate and thus remains a matter of opinion.

  8. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to CambridgeSkip For This Useful Post:

    ASLChris (18-03-2015),DragonedSkip (19-03-2015),ianw (18-03-2015),Mac (17-03-2015),roger-uk (17-03-2015),shiftypete (17-03-2015),SteveF (17-03-2015)

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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    When they changed the promise, why didn't they change queen to country?
    Because they did not change the Promise they added an extra alternative Promise

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonTregartha View Post
    But how about 'King Charles?'

    I think that will be when I change my promise.

    Our Queen is the only 'Royal' that justifies a loyal oath.
    Don I would hope we all change, I don't think Charles would like us calling him the Queen, so we would all have to change the promise.


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    This might become more of an issue as the 'two party ' system breaks up and the next generation of royals take over. King Charles having to choose HIS government from two possible coalitions with more or less equal support will bring his judgement into politics in a way the present monarch has not experienced. Which in turn will effect how people view the monarchy and possible members react to the promise.
    Last edited by Tony Ransley; 18-03-2015 at 08:13 AM.

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    Senior Member Mallah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    When they changed the promise, why didn't they change queen to country?
    Why did you draw the line at 'Country' and not EU!

    I didn't think it would be long before the next line in the sand was drawn. How long will it be then? 2 or 3 years before we have a third 'alternative' promise. And don't forget! Compass hasn't gone away yet?

    He who receives a good turn should never forget it; he who does one should never remember it.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Because they did not change the Promise they added an extra alternative Promise
    True, true, my mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    what we are promising is to do our duty to the population of the country.
    So why not just say country? Good stuff, so thanks for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    It's very different to a promise to God, the existence of who, or indeed otherwise, while being fact is not one that anyone can demonstrate and thus remains a matter of opinion.
    Or, indeed, a matter of faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    Why did you draw the line at 'Country' and not EU!

    I didn't think it would be long before the next line in the sand was drawn. How long will it be then? 2 or 3 years before we have a third 'alternative' promise. And don't forget! Compass hasn't gone away yet?
    Sorry Mallah, I don't really understand what you're getting at. Worry at the watering down of a promise until it's meaningless? As for Compass, I don't want to pick at that scab.

    Ian
    Ian Wilkins
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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    A dyed in the wool republican writes.....

    The difference between the royal issue and the God issue is one is a question of fact and one is a question of faith.

    In the UK we have a constitutional monarchy. That means that any pledge of allegiance to the monarch is not done on a personal basis, it is a pledge to the population of the country as a whole. When the monarch appoints the Prime Minister they do so on behalf of the population. When they give royal assent to an act of parliament they do so on our behalf. Similarly with the scout promise none of us has any personal duty to Elizabeth Windsor as an individual, what we are promising is to do our duty to the population of the country.

    Now personally I don't like the constitution. I want it changed. I want a democratically elected head of state. However it is a point of fact that my promise to the Queen is actually one to the 65 million others in this country hence I understand why it wasn't changed.

    It's very different to a promise to God, the existence of who, or indeed otherwise, while being fact is not one that anyone can demonstrate and thus remains a matter of opinion.
    I agree entirely (as a monarchist).

    Except for the bit about having an elected head of state, obviously - President Blair, anyone? Our political system works pretty well considering the realities of the democratic system as a whole (the least worst way and all that).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    This might become more of an issue as the 'two party ' system breaks up and the next generation of royals take over. King Charles having to choose HIS government from two possible coalitions with more or less equal support will bring his judgement into politics in a way the present monarch has not experienced. Which in turn will effect how people view the monarchy and possible members react to the promise.
    Tony, sometimes I'm not sure if you actually understand our political system. The monarch has no say on who forms the government - democratic convention will decide everything, if no party or coalition of parties can form a majority in the House of Commons. In exactly the same way that no monarch can veto a bill that has passed through Parliament. (Yes, they have the technical ability to do so but that is not reality.)
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    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    If you live here, e.g. as a US citizen, you still have a duty to the Queen. This is different to my duty, as a UK citizen. You may only have a duty to obey our laws, whereas I....actually I'm not sure what the difference is, thinking about it.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Let's not worry over much about what words we say - the real world will have the last word.

    I'm still a rebel in Navigators - the Moral Compass is a tad longwinded so we don't do investitures - people join and are welcome and we go from there.

    No youth is asked to make a promise that they cannot/ will not keep. There are no crossed fingers, no lies told.

    We have noted, in the same young people who were Scouts, a change in attitude for the better.

    Our only motto is adopted from the Lakota - "Hoka Hey" - "Let's do it!" ( Next thing I'll be getting kicked out of Navigators...)
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