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Thread: face palm

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    face palm

    I seemed to have got a slap on a wrist for ringing up the 'scouting help line' as apparently I should ask every man and his wife in the district, who probably won't know the answer. In the real world I'm project manger, and if I needed information or clarity I'd go to the key knowledge holders first (ie Gilwell), but for some reason this approach is not permitted in scouting. So why, does scouting have an information line ? I might ring them up and ask them why they exist if your not supposed to call them.

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    Senior Member Matt Styles's Avatar
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    I feel like this is something that should be addressed to an individual (in the absence of knowing an Info Centre manager, Wayne Bulpitt), rather than broadcast online; initially at least.
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    Who did you get a slap from? Someone local, or the IC staff themselves?

    What was the question?

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    Hmmm, never had that from the information line - usually very helpful, except during compass roll out when you had to wait forever to get through.

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    Senior Member johnmcmahon's Avatar
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    I've always found the info centre very helpfull. If they do not know the answer they have always pointed me to someone who does or have gone away to find someone and ask them to contact me (with the exception of Compass who never replied to anything).

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Had an interesting discussion recently about axe throwing.

    "We don't allow that here. It isn't a Scout activity. We phoned Gilwell and they didn't know anything about it."

    Odd that, since axe throwing appears on the activity list for a number of County camps up and down the country, and, I believe, was offered at the Gilwell Reunion last year.

    Sometimes the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. The Scout Association appears to be overburdened by rules, factsheets and an ever burgeoning number of local rules. So, who do you ask? It has to be the DC, for he/ she is where the buck stops on the rules. They give the difinitive answer. Anything else is just a guess because no-one knows what the local rules or the local interpretation of POR is.
    Ewan Scott

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    The information Centre have always been very helpful. I was 'told off' by others for using them, mainly because the answers I obtain are not a lined with there rules so I push back and challenge.

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyke View Post
    I seemed to have got a slap on a wrist for ringing up the 'scouting help line' as apparently I should ask every man and his wife in the district, who probably won't know the answer. In the real world I'm project manger, and if I needed information or clarity I'd go to the key knowledge holders first (ie Gilwell), but for some reason this approach is not permitted in scouting. So why, does scouting have an information line ? I might ring them up and ask them why they exist if your not supposed to call them.
    may we assume that it was someone 'local' - in your district/county - who gave you a slap on the wrist?

    you are not alone and this is not the first time this sort of thing has happened.

    the best advice i have for you, sadly, is to take a deep breath and count to ten.

    over the years a pattern has emerged and from people discussing issues with me and from my personal experiences - i was once 'banned' from posting to ukrs (or rather i was strongly 'advised' not to post there!) - i have made the following observations.

    there are lots of information pathways in scouting. escouts is one of those pathways; along with people in your district such as: the DC, ADCs, DEC people, 'senior' scouters, your GSL, and other leaders with other responsibilities; the same in your county; and also, the scout information centre (SIC) at HQ. by far the biggest information pathway i guess is 1st FB.

    just as there is a hierarchy in scouting, these information pathways also seem to fall into some sort of 'hierarchy'. the ones at the bottom are 1st FB and escouts. the next up are ones that are relatively physically remote to you, such as the SIC. up another level come county people. finally, at the top of the information hierarchy come district people (including your GSL if you're a leader in a group).

    which of these can more easily get physically 'in your face'? they're the ones who are higher up in the information hierarchy; the higher up you are the likely more impact you will have.

    some pathways distrust others. people posting to escouts tend to distrust many of those who post to 1st FB. (i must admit i am one of these people!)

    there are some who distrust the SIC, bizarrely.

    as i and many of my colleagues here who i've known for some years are low down in this information league you can feel confident in ignoring information we lend or impart. (in fact a straw poll i did last year showed that escouts rated lower than 1st FB for support and helpful information, the latter being marginally lower than district.)

    i remain able to offer advice and support only because i have evaded capture by the teal helicopters of district for nigh on 12-15 years.

    welcome to the world of scouting politics!

    cordially yours, TM
    going...going...still here...just

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    there are some who distrust the SIC, bizarrely.


    What is bizzare is that the SIC can offer different guidance to different callers.
    Ewan Scott

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    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    What is bizzare is that the SIC can offer different guidance to different callers.
    yes, i believe that is true, however, i have had no experience of such.

    in the end if you want advice and/or information on something that is essentially a district matter (and most matters for most leaders are 'district matters') you can ask on escouts, you can ask on 1st FB, you can ask UKCC questions, you can ask the SIC, you may be able to look it up in official publications; however, the definitive answer in many cases, as you are aware, will only ever come from the DC or their nominees.

    TM
    going...going...still here...just

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    the definitive answer in many cases, as you are aware, will only ever come from the DC or their nominees.

    TM
    Exactly. There is no point in asking anywhere else. Only the DC knows what his own local rules are. So only he can tell you.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    The district can make up as many rules as they want, but at the end of the day POR is POR, and as Wayne has said many many times, there is no such thing as a local rules, and if they get in the way of scouting they should be challenged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyke View Post
    The district can make up as many rules as they want, but at the end of the day POR is POR, and as Wayne has said many many times, there is no such thing as a local rules, and if they get in the way of scouting they should be challenged.
    If that is genuinely the view, then POR 9.1 should be removed, as that is what gives authority for any local rule the DC wishes. I suspect it isn't genuinely the view overall, as 9.1 has been there for ages.

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyke View Post
    The district can make up as many rules as they want, but at the end of the day POR is POR, and as Wayne has said many many times, there is no such thing as a local rules, and if they get in the way of scouting they should be challenged.
    POR does not cover every circumstance or every eventuality, other rules, processes and procedures may be needed from time to time and in certain circumstances. at the district level, where the impact is felt the most, the DC sits at the pivotal point in this system and is empowered by 9.1b

    anyone and everyone in scouting has the authority and responsibility to over-rule any rule in POR, especially where following such a rule may place people in danger or at risk. however, if you do chose to take such a course of action then you must be prepared to justify your actions, before your DC, CC, and HQ, and maybe even before the courts.

    the ability of the DC to over-rule is greater in many circumstances than a leader because of 9.1b, especially where there is no conflict with an existing rule in POR. In the case of amending a rule in POR, justification would have to be provided.

    sometimes providing a reason or justification is simply ignored.

    c'est la vie!

    cordially yours, TM
    going...going...still here...just

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    I'm fine with local rules if there is a good reason, but ones that are 'just because' or 'its always been that way' is not good enough.

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