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Thread: Annual membership Fee 2016

  1. #46
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    The one thing that you have missed, Ian, is that your group will no longer need to cover the cost of AMS for its own adults - something which is normally charged to the YP.

    So, lets say at group level you have 90 kids, and currently 15 registered adult members (a ratio of 1:6... maybe this is optimistic)

    Under your current system, you are paying for 105 members @ £32 = 3360
    Under the new system, you are paying for 90 members @ £37.50 = 3375

    An increase of just £15 - hardly worth worrying about

    Obviously different counties and districts charge different amounts. Our district currently covers its AMS bill, and most of its other costs, through other income streams rather than AMS, so there shouldn't be any problems there.

    Avon County currently don't charge AMS to Adults. Ok this means that there will be less of a financial advantage to the group when things change, but it does mean that they are used to not having the income from adults. In theory then, they should have a reduction in expenditure (AMS for county volunteers) but no reduction in income.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarlet pimp View Post
    We,ve currently got to pay £46 per head. Are County/district going to reduce their charge by at least £5 to match the suggested TSA increase mentioned in previous posts?
    Perhaps, Scarlet Pimp, you could subsidise the young people's AMS with the money you must get some somewhere to pay for the adults in your group. And, we don't know, I suggest you ask your county treasurer (or ask your district treasurer to do same).

    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    The one thing that you have missed, Ian, is that your group will no longer need to cover the cost of AMS for its own adults - something which is normally charged to the YP.
    I'm district so....I don't care about groups . But yes, I see your point, and it's a clear point, that most groups, the leaders don't pay AMS themselves, so the money comes from "somewhere", so that's either subs or fundraising, outgoings will reduce with the adults not paying AMS.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    The one thing that you have missed, Ian, is that your group will no longer need to cover the cost of AMS for its own adults - something which is normally charged to the YP.

    So, lets say at group level you have 90 kids, and currently 15 registered adult members (a ratio of 1:6... maybe this is optimistic)

    Under your current system, you are paying for 105 members @ £32 = 3360
    Under the new system, you are paying for 90 members @ £37.50 = 3375

    An increase of just £15 - hardly worth worrying about

    Obviously different counties and districts charge different amounts. Our district currently covers its AMS bill, and most of its other costs, through other income streams rather than AMS, so there shouldn't be any problems there.

    Avon County currently don't charge AMS to Adults. Ok this means that there will be less of a financial advantage to the group when things change, but it does mean that they are used to not having the income from adults. In theory then, they should have a reduction in expenditure (AMS for county volunteers) but no reduction in income.

    It is all down to maths.

    You are correct in that the Group will no longer have to cover the AMS for the adults. However, HQ are increasing the amount that youths pay so that they still have the same income.

    There will be winners and losers and a lot will be dependant on what County and District decide to do. But let us make a few assumptions for a minute.

    1. That HQ, County and District wish to raise the same level of funds as previous years less the adult payment to HQ.

    2. That neither County or District charge adults in line with HQ.

    So HQ charge currently £20.50 (if paid on time). If there are 500,000 members this raises an income of £10,250,000. To raise that from young people only approx 400,000 this will mean that HQ will charge £25.63 per young person (probably round it to £25.50 or £26).

    County currently charge £10.00 to about 8,500 and have said that they will probably reduce the fee by the amount needed for the County adults. This works out at 25p. So they will still charge based on £9.75 if all pay. If only youth pay (assuming 1000 adults) the youth fee will be £11.00.

    District currently charge £3.00 over 800 members. If they do the same it will reduce the £3.00 to £2.40 but if only spread amongst the youth will be £3.25.

    So in our District the fee used to be £20.50 + £10.00 + £3.00 = £33.50.
    The new fee could well be £25.50 + £11.00 + £3.25 = £39.75.

    Now the final total will depend on how many adults you have that you CURRENTLY pay for in relation to the number of young people.

    In a Group with few young people and lots of adults will WIN.
    In a Group with lots of young people and few adults will LOSE.

    So my Group for instance has 120 members of which 12 are adults. So currently we pay £4,020. When we no longer pay for adults the fee will be £4,293. So we will be £273 worse off. I agree that it is not a lot but for us to break even we need to loose 7 young people 
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  4. #49
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBaloo View Post
    Equally there really is no reason (for the adults or the Group), for any adult already doing those roles, to become a member. The only reason that I can see, and as you alluded to, is for the TSA to say that they have achieved the Vision 2018 objective of having 150,000 volunteers!

    Cynical maybe, but I really can't see why such volunteers need to be a member.
    For us, as groups, maybe not.

    For TSA though... it boosts member numbers on paper. Higher adult membership numbers makes it easier to negotiate good deals with potential corporate partners, etc. Network will look like more of a success. And so on

    Cynical? Me?

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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    For us, as groups, maybe not.

    For TSA though... it boosts member numbers on paper. Higher adult membership numbers makes it easier to negotiate good deals with potential corporate partners, etc. Network will look like more of a success. And so on

    Cynical? Me?
    Possibly, As I said, I can't really see any other reason for such a change.
    Peter

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  6. #51
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    It is all down to maths.

    snip

    Now the final total will depend on how many adults you have that you CURRENTLY pay for in relation to the number of young people.

    In a Group with few young people and lots of adults will WIN.
    In a Group with lots of young people and few adults will LOSE.

    So my Group for instance has 120 members of which 12 are adults. So currently we pay £4,020. When we no longer pay for adults the fee will be £4,293. So we will be £273 worse off. I agree that it is not a lot but for us to break even we need to loose 7 young people 
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    i wholeheartedly concur with your logic and maths here. i did roughly the same estimate (with similar figures) but adding 2.5% to last years figures.

    under the new system in my group, which is the second smallest group in the district, i estimate our AMS bill will increase by just over £100 to just under £1950. it should be noted that my group sponsors in full the AMS of yp and adults (members and associate members), included in this are the AMS levies of all my YLs (10), i.e. the money comes from group funds not from subscriptions; thus this extra £100 is a 'real' extra.

    for my group, because of the way we raise funds, the change in the levy process is simply just an increase in the fee as we do not pass on/levy AMs on our members and associate members any way.

    under the new system, i estimate that the largest group in my district will save around £80 on the same basis.

    however, the actual 'saving' for the largest group will be nearer £900. in that group they levy yp for AMS in the subscription (unlike us who don't). any increase in levy doesn't affect funds in the group - a £5 increase in levy is simply passed on to yp in subscription charges - but eliminating the levy for adults will be a real saving for group funds.

    of course one could argue that the £900 saving in group funds could in turn be passed back by a reduction in yp subscriptions (reducing them by 10-15%), however, i have heard of no such plans for doing so and niether do i expect this to happen.

    so bottom line: my group will be £100 worse off; my neighbour largest group will be £900 better off (though that £900 will effectively come from increased levy on yp/parents).

    people talk about savings from reduced levy at district and county level, but will large groups pass on savings from not having to pay for adults?

    TM
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  7. #52
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    TM - out of interest where do your funds to cover AMS come from? And what do you spend Subs on?

    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    people talk about savings from reduced levy at district and county level, but will large groups pass on savings from not having to pay for adults?

    TM
    I'm sure groups will pass on the saving - but possibly not in a direct refund of fees... it might be in buying more kit, subsidising camps, offering more activities, etc.

    For those groups who will see an increase i'm sure not all will charge the parents more - they might have to cut back on kit purchases, or activities, to fund it.

    For a lot of groups, like ourselves, the increase or saving is likely to be fairly insignificant and will be absorbed into our budget. Even a £300 increase or decrease, when divided down over the year, would only be £1 per child per term. Our subs move up (or down) in blocks of £5.

    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    It is all down to maths.

    Now the final total will depend on how many adults you have that you CURRENTLY pay for in relation to the number of young people.

    In a Group with few young people and lots of adults will WIN.
    In a Group with lots of young people and few adults will LOSE.
    just to make the maths easier (though my one GCSE is not in maths!), the key ratio is:

    yp/adults = old levy/(new levy - old levy)

    for a balance in total levy from old to new (i.e. no change in total payment from current to new levy system)

    where:

    yp = no of young people in group
    adults = no of levy-paying adults in group
    old levy = current levy (HQ + county + district, or equivalents)
    new levy = (estimated) levy after abolition of charges for adults

    taking Dave B's figures, where: old levy = £33.50 and new levy = £39.75,

    then for no overall change in the total levy, the ratio yp/adults < 5.36

    so the rule of thumb is:

    if yp/adults ratio is < 5.36 then your overall bill will be lower (a 'win'), old system to new system, and v.v.

    the ratio adults/yp x 100% (average) is a measure of the increase in the levy needed to stay the same. if the average ratio of yp/adults is 5 or 6 then the average increase in the levy (1/ratio x 100) will need to be about 16 - 20%. ISTR a figure of 6 was what people were working on, lending more credence to the estimates given above by DB.

    going on my estimates using this year's census:

    the 'win-lose' groups in my district will roughly fall 50:50.

    the 'win' groups will include the 3 largest groups in the district; the 'lose' groups will include the 3 smallest groups in the district.



    TM
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  9. #54
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    TM - out of interest where do your funds to cover AMS come from? And what do you spend Subs on?
    well i can't say they come from running a stall at the doncaster christmas fair for obvious reasons!

    they come from fundraising, either:

    16 jumble sales throughout the year, or, garden plant sale in spring, or, village summer fair, or, selling and posting christmas cards, or, stalls at school/village fetes and fairs.

    (of course if you know where to look it's an easy guess!)

    we raise enough money each year to fully sponsor the AMS of all yp, YLs, leaders and officers, bar one person. the GEC votes in early january each year on the proposal to subsidise AMS from group funds. in a meeting in january of the ten member GEC, 8 members abstained from the vote due to 'conflict of interest', the proposal was carried 2-0. most years the vote is carried 1-0 or 2-0. no member who has their AMS subsidised takes part in the vote at the GEC.

    fundraising activities leave enough money after payment of AMS to meet facilities costs, insurance, bills, and much equipment costs (particularly items used by all the group).

    subscriptions, which are the lowest in the district, go directly to finance group programmes. no section is allowed to accumulate, every section has a packed programme, and all three sections pay supluses into group funds at end of year.

    I'm sure groups will pass on the saving - but possibly not in a direct refund of fees... it might be in buying more kit, subsidising camps, offering more activities, etc.
    so no lowering of subs but offering more equipment and activities?

    For those groups who will see an increase i'm sure not all will charge the parents more - they might have to cut back on kit purchases, or activities, to fund it.
    so they will effectively offer a subsidy such as my group does? how much will they have to cut back on before they find they do have to charge?

    a lot will depend on how a group approaches funding the levy.

    if the policy at the moment is to levy yp their AMs fee in subs and for the group to pay for leader/adult fees from group funds (and not yp's subs), they may simply continue wth the policy wherein the new levy applied to yp will effectively include their nominal adult fee and will be a higher increase than if it didn't. the group then will not have to pay for adults from its funds and thus will enjoy a saving to the group.

    if the policy at the moment is to levy the AMS fee + a contribution to covering adult fees in subs, such that no (net) money comes from group funds, then the policy is likely to continue methinks, but now instead of paying an adult fee contribution that will be the new system increase.

    my guess is that most groups will simply add the new levy to subs; hence if the new levy is say £36 this will be added to subs so they rise by £3 per yp per month, or if £39 then a rise of £13 per term, as per each group.

    after a couple of years most groups will stop making a comparison with 'what if fees had stayed the same?'

    For a lot of groups, like ourselves, the increase or saving is likely to be fairly insignificant and will be absorbed into our budget. Even a £300 increase or decrease, when divided down over the year, would only be £1 per child per term. Our subs move up (or down) in blocks of £5.
    after the initial impact much will be 'absorbed' but it is the initial impact that will be interesting, especially where county and district levies are concerned.

    in my district ISTR that levy fees for district leaders and officials, &c, were less than 5% of the budget and i don't believe any of these fees directly impacted on setting the district levy to people in the district, i.e. district effectively covered its levy costs by raising funds (like my group does). this involved the DC doing 17 sponsored marathons and the district officials doing 24 sponsored ironman races and sitting in the stocks at the town fair, or....maybe not in these ways!

    i'm not sure that county levies contributed much to their budget too.

    i suspect that many district and county budgets will largely stay the same because of the change and other factors will have a bigger say on any increase or decrease.

    i think if one sees a rise in the HQ levy by more than about 20% and county/district levies by more than about 3%, one should start asking searching questions.

    TM
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Sigh,,,, the intention is that the money collected by HQ is the same. As almost no adults (I'm not aware of any) pay AMS - their groups fund it from their YP payments or other income, so currently the YP pay their own and leader AMS.

    The only small delta is ASU who may raise funds to cover AMS and now will be funded by YP, but I doubt that will make much difference,

    So a typical group subs will remain about the same.

    Wil
    l remain the same?

    They said that at the time of decimalisation!
    Last edited by scarlet pimp; 19-06-2015 at 10:48 PM.

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    Senior Member roger-uk's Avatar
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    Hey what will be will be - This is purely to ensure that adult numbers rise. Why bother taking an adult of the "books" if your not paying for them and they will only get "culled" every 5 years at DBS time.

    Same with network make all 18 to 25 year olds automatically network members even if they just want to be leaders - great way to increase numbers
    Roger Woods
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-uk View Post
    Hey what will be will be - This is purely to ensure that adult numbers rise. Why bother taking an adult of the "books" if your not paying for them and they will only get "culled" every 5 years at DBS time.

    Same with network make all 18 to 25 year olds automatically network members even if they just want to be leaders - great way to increase numbers
    I'm sorry, I have never once, ever, heard any one state that adult AMS fees were a bar to recruitment of leaders or helpers.

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    Senior Member roger-uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    I'm sorry, I have never once, ever, heard any one state that adult AMS fees were a bar to recruitment of leaders or helpers.
    I did not say they were. I beeive that more adults will stay on as there is no benefit in taking them off - I know we used to lok at all adults at Census time to ensure they were all active - with not paying AMS this will not be so critical.
    Roger Woods
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    1st Sawley (All Saints) , Long Eaton

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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    I'm sorry, I have never once, ever, heard any one state that adult AMS fees were a bar to recruitment of leaders or helpers.
    It probably isn't given that in the majority of Groups AMS for adults is usually covered, in one way or another, by effectively "charging" the youth members.

    However the proposed changes to not paying AMS for adults, together with changes with regard to Network, will likely increase the number of adult members, as volunteers who were not previously members are persuaded to become members. This will likely increase the number of adult members of TSA, which is one of the stated aims of Vision 2018, without having any significant impact at Group and District level, other than increasing the head count!
    Peter

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    A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step.¯ Lao Tzu (600 BC - 531 BC)

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarlet pimp View Post

    Wil
    l remain the same?
    Please don't misquote people. Rising star said "will remain about the same". Quite different.

    In other news, I've had it pretty much confirmed to me that our county is not going to charge an adult levee, and therefore the county levee (charged to young people only) will almost certainly go up. I guess our district will follow suit, so adults will have zero cost.

    Ian
    Ian Wilkins
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