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Thread: Annual membership Fee 2016

  1. #61
    Senior Member Matt Donnelly's Avatar
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    If the objective of this policy change is to effectively massage adult membership numbers in support of vision 2018, the impact would seem to be a pending increase in youth membership fees the year after introduction. Why?

    Because we still have to insure our membership. By no longer charging directly for adult members, the presumed increase in adult membership will increase the overall insurance costs for TSA and require youth membership fees to rise as control over the adult membership is lost.

    I think this is a policy which risks creating future financial and management headaches.
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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I suspect that you will find the actual cost of insurance is probably somewhere around £15 per head, okay, let me push that, call it £20.

    The real costs paid for in AMS are the overheads of the Association, I think you will find.
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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I suspect that you will find the actual cost of insurance is probably somewhere around £15 per head, okay, let me push that, call it £20.

    The real costs paid for in AMS are the overheads of the Association, I think you will find.
    Given that AMS is currently £21 per head, then the other overheads must only be £1 each - a bargain! (even with Compass).
    Last edited by khoomei; 21-06-2015 at 04:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Given that AMS is currently £21 per head, then the other overheads must only be £1 each - a bargain! (even with Compass).
    Er no- theres other forms of income such as badge sponsorship, badge sales, trading, unity ins, other insurnace funds and investments, scout shops,donations, grants etc etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by scarlet pimp View Post
    Er no- theres other forms of income such as badge sponsorship, badge sales, trading, unity ins, other insurnace funds and investments, scout shops,donations, grants etc etc
    ..and other forms of expenditure, but these are not being funded through AMS (assuming that insurance costs £20 per head). If they tried a bit harder then maybe AMS could be removed completely - and indeed HQ was completely self funding until 1964, when capitation was introduced, but that was before the litigation culture so insurance costs were lower.

  8. #66
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Given that AMS is currently £21 per head, then the other overheads must only be £1 each - a bargain! (even with Compass).
    Indeed, it could look that way, but if I can get £15 per head with a membership of up to 35, (with the same-ish level of cover) then the economies of scale suggest that TSA pay less.

    It happens that even at £30 a year I would say that the AMS offered value for money - to a point. However, the funds wasted on IT and on some "expenses" need closer inspection.

    I have to consider, having seen this from the other side of the fence now, that had I 150 members, my total insurance bill would be somewhat less than £15 per head - I would be paying less than half of the figure I was paying to TSA, for essentially the same services (received).
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBaloo View Post
    It probably isn't given that in the majority of Groups AMS for adults is usually covered, in one way or another, by effectively "charging" the youth members.

    However the proposed changes to not paying AMS for adults, together with changes with regard to Network, will likely increase the number of adult members, as volunteers who were not previously members are persuaded to become members. This will likely increase the number of adult members of TSA, which is one of the stated aims of Vision 2018, without having any significant impact at Group and District level, other than increasing the head count!
    Why will not paying AMS increase adult members? When AMS is not seen here - or even by your own admission yourself - a bar to adult membership?

    Others have mentioned the change to network, in that all 18-25 leaders/ASU automatically become network members. Well a quick sample round here indicated that all of our leaders in that age group rather objected to that, and stated they'd never participate in a network meeting - they were here for being leaders (and most came up a YL route having left explorers at some point between 14 and 18).

    I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, but this seems one of those changes where things will be no better or worse after the change, except that as YP AMS will go up by about 20% then long after the change is forgotten our more cynical leaders will be asking, more loudly, why AMS is so high.

  11. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Indeed, it could look that way, but if I can get £15 per head with a membership of up to 35, (with the same-ish level of cover) then the economies of scale suggest that TSA pay less.

    It happens that even at £30 a year I would say that the AMS offered value for money - to a point. However, the funds wasted on IT and on some "expenses" need closer inspection.

    I have to consider, having seen this from the other side of the fence now, that had I 150 members, my total insurance bill would be somewhat less than £15 per head - I would be paying less than half of the figure I was paying to TSA, for essentially the same services (received).
    I was being slightly tongue in cheek there. It was you who offered £20 as the cost of insurance, I think TSA must do it cheaper than that. Given that HQ have other revenue streams, I believe they should be aiming to be self funding beyond the per head insurance costs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Why will not paying AMS increase adult members? When AMS is not seen here - or even by your own admission yourself - a bar to adult membership?
    It will increase membership figures because there will be little incentive to remove dormant members from the list.

  12. #69
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    From January 2016: No UKHQ membership fee for adults

    See http://scouts-news.org.uk/L4Y-3J5RU-AEB96UYW81/cr.aspx if you haven't had the email. There's also information here http://members.scouts.org.uk/support...61&moduleID=10





    Andrew

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    UKHQ transitional grants will be made available for two years to support Scout Groups or Units if their UKHQ membership costs rise by more than £200 in total.
    Hadn't seen that bit before.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
    UKHQ transitional grants will be made available for two years to support Scout Groups or Units if their UKHQ membership costs rise by more than £200 in total.
    How could that be?

    How can the HQ Membership increase by more than £200 and not already be supported by subscriptions/ AMS collection at the Group ( however they pay it)?
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  16. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    How can the HQ Membership increase by more than £200 and not already be supported by subscriptions/ AMS collection at the Group ( however they pay it)?
    Groups with a very small number of adults and a very large number of young people?

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  18. #73
    No mountain too high PeterSheppard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    How could that be?

    How can the HQ Membership increase by more than £200 and not already be supported by subscriptions/ AMS collection at the Group ( however they pay it)?
    You'd need to be a pretty big group with not many adults. From plotting a quick matrix in Excel if you had 91 kids but just 10 adults then your overall expenditure on HQ membership fees would rise by £204.50. Or 170 kids and 27 adults you'd see a rise of £211.50.

    Could be that some groups are supported by adults whose membership fees were paid at a higher level, for example most of their leaders on the district team etc.
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  20. #74
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    How could that be?

    How can the HQ Membership increase by more than £200 and not already be supported by subscriptions/ AMS collection at the Group ( however they pay it)?
    yes i see what you're saying. on average figures, if the AMS bill is £2k this year and the group keeps the same number of adults and yp next year and the switch in levy is to be effectively neutral then the bill next year is still £2k! if the AMS of all leaders was covered by yp subscriptions last year then it makes not one iota of difference to those yp's subscriptions if they don't have to cover leader's subscriptions next year; they haven't done so in either year!

    simply: on average, the small bit of the subscription charges they paid last year to cover the AMS levy of leaders does not now need to be paid next year; hence the subscription charge should go down. however, this decrease has been matched by an increase in the yp's AMS; hence the subscription charge should remain the same.

    any 'difference' only appears if you simply consider only AMS levies, i.e. yp and adults this year; yp only next year. this assumes that the cost of AMS for leaders this year has been met in full by the group. but where does the group get its money from to pay these fees? subscriptions levied on yp!

    the only occasion where you will literally have a 'difference' will be in those groups who do charge adults for AMS. i am surprised to see this is 14% in the figures given in the release.

    one needs to be very careful which figures and on what basis you look at them here!

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 15-07-2015 at 12:33 PM.
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  21. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    yes i see what you're saying. on average figures, if the AMS bill is £2k this year and the group keeps the same number of adults and yp next year and the switch in levy is to be effectively neutral then the bill next year is still £2k!
    But it is only neutral for a specific size of Group. For a Group with more adults it will be less expensive, and fewer adults will be more expensive.

    It's revenue neutral to HQ, not to Groups, except of a very specific adult:child ratio.

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