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Thread: AMS 2016 and new rules for ECs

  1. #61
    Senior Member David Kendall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    ......... Exec members tend to volunteer because they want to. The training should be available and 'encouraged' so that they also 'want' to do it, not 'have' to do it.
    Whereas Leaders volunteer because they are forced to ?
    In between roles/helping out where I can......

  2. #62
    Senior Member Mallah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    I can't get my head around not requiring volunteers to undertake training relating to their role.
    And you appear happy to treat it as a stick.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Kendall View Post
    Whereas Leaders volunteer because they are forced to ?
    Oh for Pete's sake!!!!!!

    He who receives a good turn should never forget it; he who does one should never remember it.

  3. #63
    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    And you appear happy to treat it as a stick.
    And you appear to not care two hoots whether somebody accepting a vital role is provided the tools - and prepared to undertake basic training.

    Talk about slack!


    I'm reading posts on this topic and it's easy to see that the only criteria that some people expect from a trustee is that they are breathing .... no wonder many groups are running outside of the association / charity commission rules.
    Last edited by mediamanager; 20-07-2015 at 09:54 AM.
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
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    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

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    If we want to improve the training levels of our members surely the place to start is by having a zero tolerance approach to weaknesses in the training system - then we can have a robust approach to ensuring people undertake the training. Its no good insisting people undertake training and then it not being available. At the moment far too many people are having to travel long distances to courses, scratch around to find LTA's and LTM's to get training signed off, wait months for the next course to come round etc etc. Solve those issues and the objections etc to training become a lot harder to justify. We all recognise that good training is inspiring, energising, and equipping - all of which lead to much better practice on the ground and that sort of training should be encouraged to the point of insistence. However if we can't be sure that our training is all those things, and that volunteers are being frustrated and having their time wasted trying to get through training requirements then we need to take an urgent look at the whole area. Training should be a positive that might take some time but that people in general feel is worth their time - if its a chore then we are doing it wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    I'm not sure that volunteers cannot aspire to achieve, or deliver, professionalism.

    Saying we cannot be professionals because we volunteer is inappropriate and insulting - the only difference is remuneration and I for one did my best without a second thought to monies.

    Whatever path in my life, I lived by - and continue to do so - the Scout Laws and doing my best is applicable whether as a volunteer or employee/employer.
    Quick point of order in terms of professionalism and being professional.

    I didn't mean this in the context of being proficient, I meant it in the context of a profession - as in - something you do for money and not necessarily because you want to. I don't think anyone is suggesting being professional and being a volunteer are mutually exclusive. That said; there will be people who have no interest in aspiring, achieving, delivering or being overly professional - they just want to do the books, deal with communications or do something for their community.

    I think a lot of people when they think about volunteering, don't consider that what they'll be getting involved with requires the kind of training structure you'd expect in the work place. That said, in some circumstances, training wouldn't go amiss - however - its a balance.

    I would say; its also wee bit inappropriate to suggest volunteers who aren't particularly interested in aspiring to achieve (etc) are some how left wanting. The creeping professionalisation (as in the meaning in the second paragraph up there) often works against or negates the good will we rely on to get volunteers in the door.

  7. #66
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    I completely disagree with the concept of 'mandatory' training in this area. Exec members tend to volunteer because they want to. The training should be available and 'encouraged' so that they also 'want' to do it, not 'have' to do it.
    disagree.

    GEC members have important roles and responsibilities, some of which are legally binding. It is vital that they receive appropriate training to enable them to effectively discharge their duties.

    of course we want them to do it, just as we want every leader, manager and supporter to want to undertake training.

    no one wishes to have to make things mandatory, least of all training, but we have to ensure that those people charged with the important task of managing groups are properly equipped to do the job. however, that does not mean everyone has to attend a training course.

    Next issue is that most exec members I've come across probably have more knowledge than those tasked with the training!!!
    that's an associated issue that also needs addressing.

    there are many GEC members out there who do not have the knowledge.

    this is not about browbeating someone into doing training.

    TM
    going...going...still here...just

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    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Quick point of order in terms of professionalism and being professional.

    I didn't mean this in the context of being proficient, I meant it in the context of a profession - as in - something you do for money and not necessarily because you want to. I don't think anyone is suggesting being professional and being a volunteer are mutually exclusive. That said; there will be people who have no interest in aspiring, achieving, delivering or being overly professional - they just want to do the books, deal with communications or do something for their community.

    I think a lot of people when they think about volunteering, don't consider that what they'll be getting involved with requires the kind of training structure you'd expect in the work place. That said, in some circumstances, training wouldn't go amiss - however - its a balance.

    I would say; its also wee bit inappropriate to suggest volunteers who aren't particularly interested in aspiring to achieve (etc) are some how left wanting. The creeping professionalisation (as in the meaning in the second paragraph up there) often works against or negates the good will we rely on to get volunteers in the door.
    Delivering and supporting a youth provision via Scouting is an unpaid profession.
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    And you appear to not care two hoots whether somebody accepting a vital role is provided the tools - and prepared to undertake basic training.

    Talk about slack!


    I'm reading posts on this topic and it's easy to see that the only criteria that some people expect from a trustee is that they are breathing .... no wonder many groups are running outside of the association / charity commission rules.
    Gee whiz.

    Where's the trust? ;-)

    Every now and again, you'll get some melter volunteering for a position the nature of which they know not a jot about who then refuses to learn, but for the most part - people aren't lemmings, they volunteer with some idea of what they're getting in to.

    Our group exec works fine with out any of the aspirant chat about tools and standards, i'd even go as far to say it's thrived. Fund raising has shot through the roof, our hall is being renovated, membership is up (the only thing stifling it is lack of volunteers - one wonders why?) The chief high heid yins are trying to turn a voluntary organisation in to a professional organisation and it's not working. The current training is largely ignored or undeliverable - ironically - because they can't get volunteers in to manage it.

    Volunteers, often retired professionals, put their hands up to chip in but are told; "Yes we'd love your help, but if you could just do this training..." In a sense its a no-win situation for the Association because if the training isn't onerous enough it'll be seen as a patronising waste of time but if its too involved, then it'll just put people off. Its fine if you get a technocrat in who enjoys the minutiae of POR, but if its someone who just wants to keep an equipment register or be on the committee and clean the bogs...

    Their good will tends to evaporate when formalised training is mentioned.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    Delivering and supporting a youth provision via Scouting is an unpaid profession.
    This is your subjective view. For many, its a hobby pursued with varying degrees of enthusiasm

    I'd argue it isn't a profession (from my point of view) because its something I don't get paid for and choose to do - its 100% voluntary and the extent of my involvement is 99% up to me.

    (The 1% is the mandatory child protection stuff.)

    I wonder how it would affect volunteer uptake if we put on recruitment posters that Scouting was an unpaid profession. ;-)
    Last edited by pa_broon74; 20-07-2015 at 10:53 AM.

  10. #69
    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    I've begun to realise that my problem was that I always approached my volunteering as if it was an unpaid profession for me.

    In recent weeks / months I'm starting to see that others treat it like a hobby such as stamp collecting, airfix kit building, and painting landscapes.

    I'm on the outside now and starting to see how deep the rot is within the UKSA and it's not nice after all the years.
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    I've begun to realise that my problem was that I always approached my volunteering as if it was an unpaid profession for me.

    In recent weeks / months I'm starting to see that others treat it like a hobby such as stamp collecting, airfix kit building, and painting landscapes.
    For me it's a bit of both. I don't see why those are in conflict nor why that would be a problem in and of itself.

    Neil

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post

    Every now and again, you'll get some melter volunteering for a position the nature of which they know not a jot about who then refuses to learn, but for the most part - people aren't lemmings, they volunteer with some idea of what they're getting in to.
    No they don't. They absolutely don't in most cases. They don't even think of themselves as volunteers. They just see themselves as "helping out with Scouts". They often have absolutley no concept of what they are "volunteering" for. Many don't even understand what scouting is about.

    Our group exec works fine with out any of the aspirant chat about tools and standards, i'd even go as far to say it's thrived. Fund raising has shot through the roof, our hall is being renovated, membership is up (the only thing stifling it is lack of volunteers - one wonders why?) The chief high heid yins are trying to turn a voluntary organisation in to a professional organisation and it's not working. The current training is largely ignored or undeliverable - ironically - because they can't get volunteers in to manage it.
    I've heard that before. We are doing just fine. Then when you start lifting stones, the worms crawl out. They patently have not been doing fine. They have set themselves up for a huge fall. It is like driving at 80mph down the M1 it is all well and good, everything is fine until someone does something unexpected and you have not got the ability to handle the situation. You can be a car crash weiting to happen. I've seen it too often.

    Volunteers, often retired professionals, put their hands up to chip in but are told; "Yes we'd love your help, but if you could just do this training..." In a sense its a no-win situation for the Association because if the training isn't onerous enough it'll be seen as a patronising waste of time but if its too involved, then it'll just put people off. Its fine if you get a technocrat in who enjoys the minutiae of POR, but if its someone who just wants to keep an equipment register or be on the committee and clean the bogs...

    Their good will tends to evaporate when formalised training is mentioned.
    They can do either of the above as an OH with no need for Associate Membership, but as soon as they join the committee, the board, the DEC, they become Trustees and it is only right and proper that they know what they are doing ( yes - even retired accountants and lawyers).

    How formal is the training? Very informal. To the point of being ineffective, it needs revising, it needs adapting to this particular need. But it needs doing nonetheless.


    This is your subjective view. For many, its a hobby pursued with varying degrees of enthusiasm

    I'd argue it isn't a profession (from my point of view) because its something I don't get paid for and choose to do - its 100% voluntary and the extent of my involvement is 99% up to me.

    (The 1% is the mandatory child protection stuff.)
    I think that my erstwhile colleague is trying to say is that whilst some do their utmost best, there are others who, patently do not. If they are doing their utmost best, then God save the Scout Association.

    Do you know how long it takes for an unmanaged Exec to deteriorate from being correct to being out of line? Approximately one meeting if people don't know what they are supposed to be doing or how they are supposed to do it.

    I now what Mark is saying. I understand what he is saying and to a point I agree - and Mark will tell you that over the years we have not always agreed, but I have always considered mark to be one of the "pros" whether I agreed with him or not. He stood head and shoulders above many.

    I wonder how it would affect volunteer uptake if we put on recruitment posters that Scouting was an unpaid profession. ;-)]
    I wonder how the performance of scouting (all scouting) would improve if we took a more "professional" approach to what we do? ( and Compass is not professional, making up rules as we go along is not professional).
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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  14. #72
    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    For me it's a bit of both. I don't see why those are in conflict nor why that would be a problem in and of itself.
    Scouting was my life, in many aspects, for the 25+ years I was an adult member - it provided me with a close "family", introduced me to my (now ex) wife, gave me a channel for my energies and enthusiasm, provided me with proud moments and achievements (not talking about personal recognition), gave my life skills which were transferable to my working life.

    A hobby is defined as "an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure" and Scouting was my hobby .... but this didn't stop me from taking it seriously and an opportunity to be professional.

    Throughout my Scouting career I have had numerous opportunities to work with others who's dedication and commitment went above and beyond. They too didn't see Scouting as just a hobby but also a calling.

    We are all individuals and we donate our time and energies in different ways. Some remain in roles for years, comfortable in their commitment, and this is commendable. Others experience a wealth of appointments across a wider aspect of the movement.

    Like all hobbyists there are those that tinker and chose who embrace .... those who decide to tinker should consider allowing others to embrace instead of keeping them back.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I now what Mark is saying. I understand what he is saying and to a point I agree - and Mark will tell you that over the years we have not always agreed, but I have always considered mark to be one of the "pros" whether I agreed with him or not. He stood head and shoulders above many.
    You make me blush!

    I tried to offer an approachable and professional side to Scouting at the levels I operated in.

    I made changes, supported new initiatives (though didn't always agree 100%), and ensured that those who requested support received it.

    I was also very honest and that's part of the reason now that I'm on the outside and don't receive replies to emails.
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  15. #73
    Senior Member Hathi_Cambridge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post

    Like all hobbyists there are those that tinker and chose who embrace .... those who decide to tinker should consider allowing others to embrace instead of keeping them back.
    Where does flexible volunteering fit on this scale?

  16. #74
    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathi_Cambridge View Post
    Where does flexible volunteering fit on this scale?
    Flexibility doesn't mean that you can't still be professional.

    I've met people who give 100% to a role that involves less than 5 hours per month - they still embraced.

    I've also met people who volunteer 5+ hours per week and shouldn't be part of Scouting due to the damage that they cause.
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  17. #75
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    I think it is vitally important that those responsible for making decisions on behalf of the group (ie the trustees):

    a) understand their responsibilities and liabilities
    b) understand what Scouting is
    c) understand the roles of the leaders who they are supporting

    If undertaking some basic online training modules helps with this then great.

    With a volunteering role that carries responsibility, you expect there to be training (or, where applicable, accreditation of prior learning/skills). You wouldn't expect a St Johns first aider to have no training, or a train driver on a volunteer railway, so why would it be acceptable in Scouting?

    I agree with some of what Mark says... i've always said there are three types of Scouting Volunteer:

    The parents who volunteer because of their kids
    Those who volunteer a few hours a week as a "volunteering" opportunity (or hobby)
    Those for whom Scouting is a lifestyle.

    I don't think one set is any less valuable than another, and we should be open and welcoming to all, but all should accept that there is training involved. Many of the problems, myths and mistakes that appear on this forum, and 1st fb, wouldn't happen if everyone did appropriate training. If people are not willing to make a commitment to a couple of hours sat in front of a PC doing training, how useful are they going to be to us?

    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

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