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Thread: AMS 2016 and new rules for ECs

  1. #91
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    You're now putting words in my fingers.
    NO I AM NOT!

    the words i used were:

    me, i, my......

    scouting is my profession.

    i was not talking about you.

    TM
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post

    Here's a challenge for everybody .... line up the GSLs in your district and ask yourself whether you'd allow them to run a stall at a fresher fair or similar event to recruit younger adults?
    I find your post starting to read as you are very bitter about Scouting for what ever reason and some of your comments are insulting. I don't think there is a GSL in my District that I would not ask to run a stall at a fresher fair and being a University City we do run them and have very good links with the University.

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  4. #93
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    My beef (such as it is) is with the formalised training. Like I said, most people aren't stupid - when they volunteer they have a rough idea of what's involved, if they do come on board there should be people there to support them. I'm not saying being a volunteer absolves a person from knowing their responsibilities - I'm contesting the way that knowledge is being delivered and the onerous nature of it - as I keep saying, it feels like work.
    you have a funny way of expressing your beef!

    so how should the knowledge be delivered? what is so onerous about it?

    Whether we like it or not, we need to sell these volunteer positions. If its a GSL we need then that's a technical post, the training is going to be onerous - they need to know exactly what is expected. But being a committee member? Its not that complicated.
    i know a few GSLs who would take offence at you saying this.

    i also know a few GEC members who would also take offence at you saying the job is not that complicated.

    I know people can be crap, but we're assuming the great British volunteering public has lost the ability to educate themselves and be proactive so must be spoon-fed information. (See **'s above.)
    spoon-fed? in what way?

    To be clear, there are positions that require training; GSL, Chair, Treasurer (although you'd expect someone volunteering to at least have the basics), section leaders and (obviously) the training positions in the area. Most others have to remain a choice, just because they're not choosing to do formal training as ordained by HQ, doesn't necessarily mean they'll be flailing around aimlessly.
    everyone can benefit from training.

    what is this 'formal training' you're going on about? is there an 'informal training'?

    when my chairman was asked to step into the job they did not have the 'basics'. so was that a bad choice on my part?

    so do you think i am wrong to be saying that ordinary GEC members should be doing the formal training modules 1 to 19?

    TM
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  5. #94
    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1stupton View Post
    I find your post starting to read as you are very bitter about Scouting for what ever reason and some of your comments are insulting.
    Not bitter about Scouting at all!

    I work closely with leaders in Scouting and Guiding on nearly 2-3 evenings per week, follow Scouting groups and FB, raise funds for my previous group, encourage and support my Explorer Scout son, promote Scouting within the community whenever I get the chance, and tell people with pride I was a Scouter.

    Just because I'm free to be more critical of the movement doesn't mean I'm bitter - it means I'm free to be more critical of the movement without fear of teal helicopters.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1stupton View Post
    I don't think there is a GSL in my District that I would not ask to run a stall at a fresher fair and being a University City we do run them and have very good links with the University.
    And that's great to hear.

    1 - 0 against my assumption .... not looking like I've a chance on this observation!
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1stupton View Post
    I find your post starting to read as you are very bitter about Scouting for what ever reason and some of your comments are insulting. I don't think there is a GSL in my District that I would not ask to run a stall at a fresher fair and being a University City we do run them and have very good links with the University.

    Actually... We used to do them, but they always sent in the people who were past the active stuff, who couldn't relate to young people any more. I'm kind of with Mark on that one.

    Should have sent in the GSLs... hang on, there were only two of us...

    To be truthful, I have never actually set up stall to recruit young people, or even Leaders. I have gone out and done activities with young people and if more young people or adults joined as a result, than that was just great. If they didn't, it didn't matter.
    Ewan Scott

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    Sharing officers is a nice idea Mark but its unlikely - you might get the odd (in both senses) person who is that keen on sitting in committee meetings that they are happy to be Treasurer for more than one group but its not going to be that common and might in any event give rise to conflicts of interest in some circumstances. I guess the other thing you could look at is to what extent the separation between being a section leader or assistant versus being on the exec as an officer is really necessary. As a qualified accountant with a fair degree of charity experience I think I could probably do a half decent job as group treasurer except that POR expressly forbids it. (I do get that you could have risks whereby I was able to pocket money coming in via the section but in our case all subs are paid by standing order so its only really a hypothetical risk which probably harks back to the days when little Jonny turned up for cubs with his 50p in cash).

    I think more generally what we are debating are the transitional pains of a movement which use to survive very much on a local level - one leader recruits another and trains them up before handing on the reigns etc - into one which is much more structured and based on procedures for safeguarding and quality. I also sadly think that in about 2 years time once this change (to bring all adults into membership) has had a chance to work through, Compass is going to very starkly reveal how many gaps there are in the organisation, including in training (our County website shows 4 out of 9 LTM posts currently vacant - correlate that with a reliance on training?). At the moment we are getting to a point where all the rules and procedures are in place but as yet we have very little handle on compliance across the country. Someone soon is going to have to have a full time job sorting out all the missing appointments - GSL's, DC's etc that make such a structure workable. Otherwise we will continue to get what we tend to get at present - the structure isn't working, just get on with lighting fires and going camping and it (the procedures and paperwork) will keep.

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  9. #97
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Mang,

    I think that if people were honest when doing their RAG reports these shortages would have been highlighted long ago.

    I doubt that, in the long run, much will change because most people come into scouting to help out, not to get into some pseudo-professional bureaucracy. There are a few who approach things in a more business-like manner. I did, but in a different way from Mark.

    What happens when you do that is that you alienate some, but get the support of others. I don't think things will ever really change. There will be ongoing attempts to manage and control, but at the end of the day, the kids come down to light fires, go on adventures and they don't care who does the paperwork, and neither do most of their Leaders.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  10. #98
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    at the end of the day, the kids come down to light fires, go on adventures and they don't care who does the paperwork, and neither do most of their Leaders.
    I agree with you here Ewan

    However, any large charity, like TSA, will have rules, governance, etc. We have legal responsibilities and requirements which must be met, however much we might wish we could just ignore them. When we are running buildings (often fairly large community buildings) those also come with responsibilities and jobs that have to be done.

    For some groups - small ones with minimal assets, no buildings, etc it may not matter too much whether the exec are really "on the ball". They might come to no harm if proper governance doesn't happen. The job of treasurer, or chair, might be very simple.

    For larger groups, with lots of kit, premises (in some cases more than one property), vehicles, possibly organising public events, etc - the responsibilities and the workload on the exec will be more onerous. I suspect it is that background that Ewan, Mark and myself all look at this from.

    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

  11. #99
    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    I agree with you here Ewan

    However, any large charity, like TSA, will have rules, governance, etc. We have legal responsibilities and requirements which must be met, however much we might wish we could just ignore them. When we are running buildings (often fairly large community buildings) those also come with responsibilities and jobs that have to be done.

    For some groups - small ones with minimal assets, no buildings, etc it may not matter too much whether the exec are really "on the ball". They might come to no harm if proper governance doesn't happen. The job of treasurer, or chair, might be very simple.

    For larger groups, with lots of kit, premises (in some cases more than one property), vehicles, possibly organising public events, etc - the responsibilities and the workload on the exec will be more onerous. I suspect it is that background that Ewan, Mark and myself all look at this from.
    I've personal experience with two very different groups .... with very different exec committees.
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

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    Im not sure if its been mentioned earlier, but this http://members.scouts.org.uk/support...61&moduleID=10 gives an idea on when or if we will see Compass, in particular this section:

    What is the membership fee process in 2016?
    The census of all adult and youth members will be taken in January 2016 using the same online system that has been used for the last ten years. The fees payable will be calculated on only the number of young people in each Scout County/Area/Region (Scotland).

  13. #101
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    I've personal experience with two very different groups .... with very different exec committees.
    I have been involved in 5 groups as an adult... of which:

    2 were closed sponsored groups... one of them was the group where I was a Scout, then YL, then eventually ASL. My dad was group chair. The other I was the SL at and it didnt have exec meetings at all! Didn't even have leaders meetings.

    One had an exec which was a group of "old folk" sitting around discussing the same thing time and again

    One had an exec which was mainly leaders, but with the chair and treasurer. Small group, no premises, not many assets, fairly easy to run - main thing we did was plan events

    My current group has an exec with a very hardworking chair, an accountant as a treasurer, a secretary, a very good fundraising officer who brings in a lot of money, and at the moment one "lay" parent member. Plus section leaders. We have a hall, we have a growing kit store with many thousands of pounds of kit. Our 5 year development plan will take us to around 150 kids, and includes purchasing minibuses and a trailer or van. I spend at least as much time "Scouting" as I do on my "paid job" and a number of leaders and exec members do well over the "2 hours a week".

    So like you i've had very different experiences. I think it really depends on what the group is, what the group wants to be, and what responsibilities the group has.

    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

  14. #102
    Senior Member Hathi_Cambridge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    I think it really depends on what the group is, what the group wants to be, and what responsibilities the group has.
    Or at least what the driving force/catalyst/loudest voice in the group wants it to be.

    Slightly provocative question here -

    If we remove all trustees who are not prepared to train (or accredit prior learning) how far do we go with this?

    1. Do we close all sections failing to meet POR minimum requirements?
    2. Do we close all groups without a GSL?
    3. Do we remove all DCs who are not covering the GSL role adequately?
    4. Do we remove all District Execs that are not quorate (and presumably close the District)?
    5. Do we remove trainers who are misinformed?

    Or do we take more paragmatic approach and work with the volunteers we have and help them to develop as far as they are prepared.

    I know which approach I prefer, and try to follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Can you explain the above, please?

    The GSL is part of the EXEC so why would he need to know when the meetings HAD been held, he should have been there. Also, what is so complicated about the election rules? What is so complicated about the terminology.

    Chairperson - heads the meetings and represents the Group
    Treasurer - looks after the accounts
    Secretary - takes minutes and handles correspondence.

    Hardly difficult to understand.

    Election. Who wants to be a Trustee? Okay, fill this declaration out. You are a Trustee. No, seriously, it isn't much more difficult than that.
    Blimey. A day at work and an evening meeting, and the thread moves on so far that I'm not sure whether you still want an answer to this.

    I didn't say that the GSL wasn't at Executive meetings. I said that training the GSL, and having District asking a few pertinent questions, was a feasible alternative to training everyone. Of course trustees need to understand their roles, but actually, especially if there's no hut, so the main asset is the kit, a few trained people watching out for the possible omissions and a group of people applying common sense is quite workable.

    I didn't mean the chairperson, treasurer and secretary. I meant an environment in which most parents and Executive members I have come across struggle with getting Colony, Pack, Troop, Group and Unit the right way around. Now those names we do need, but why do we add to the problem by introducing the name "Group Council" for something that normally meets once a year at the AGM. Why not "Group General Meeting" or something?

    And why talk in terms of the group treasurer, chair and secretary being ex officio members of the Executive? Meat and drink to meeting nerds like me. Really complicated to someone whose only experience is the reality that we have an AGM where we elect both officers and ordinary members; for them, it's hard to work out why the treasurer elected under item 4 is on the GEC "ex officio", and the ordinary member elected under item 5 is not. Isn't it easier just to say that the officers serve both the Executive and the General Meeting?

    And all the stuff about the GSL nominating some members and others being elected from the meeting. But the nominated members have to be approved. Which just raises the question of what happens if they are rejected? So what it means is, "The number of ordinary members to be elected to the Executive should be agreed by a resolution of the General Meeting. They should be elected annually by the General Meeting, up to half of them being nominated by the GSL, and the remainder by other members of the General Meeting."

    Of course, the section leaders and GSL are on the GEC ex officio for different reasons from the officers, which makes it even more complicated. No surprise then that I've seen an AGM where the leaders got elected That could be worded better too.
    Last edited by DKRSL; 20-07-2015 at 09:41 PM.
    SL, 11th Hitchin

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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    I'm not sure that volunteers cannot aspire to achieve, or deliver, professionalism.
    Same as others have said.

    Anyone who knows a little history knows that "professional" used to be a derogatory term, especially in sport. The true sportsmen were the amateurs. That looks silly to us now. The problem, though, was connotations.

    That's still the problem. "Professional" now means "someone who does everything he/she can to be competent or even excellent". That's no more sensible than the old meaning. "Professional" means someone whose profession (usually, paid employment) is the role. That, again as others have said, means a wholly different relationship, in which the selling of my time implies a right for the the employer to decide (within reason) how his/her purchase is to be spent.

    As a volunteer, it's much more fluid. My time remains mine; I make it available as and when I can and I choose to. If I don't like the look of how it is allocated, I can go off and offer it somewhere else, often with little personal cost. Indeed, most people I know, who volunteer for anything, do so for several organisations at once, so I can probably just reallocate it to someone who seems to use it better. And every single decision I make to do something is to give up family time so, even if I get something out of that extra meeting, someone close to me is paying the bill.

    And, including to some who really are professionals, "volunteer" has slightly different connotations. It doesn't even have to be a volunteer - "part timer" can be a derogatory term. Look how hard the Army are working now at making the Territorials feel really part of the organisation. For that matter, "volunteer" can sound especially wrong to members. I've spent so long working for and being part of membership organisations that I use it of myself now, but at heart I'm a Scout Leader, not a volunteer. And whilst I think of the members as mostly the YPs, I'm proud to be a member also. Volunteer I can take or leave.
    Last edited by DKRSL; 20-07-2015 at 09:58 PM.
    SL, 11th Hitchin

  17. #105
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    i am both a volunteer scouter and a professional scouter, whatever way you want to define them.

    TM
    going...going...still here...just

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