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Thread: Re: Appointment Process

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doughboy View Post
    Yes - and it used to be that the new DC would conduct a review of all appointments he/she manages within 6 months of being appointed. (However, I can't find the relevant POR ref to this is still in place)
    Isn't it the case, though, that ADC and ACC appointments all actually terminate when the DC/CC does?

  2. #17
    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    Surely the process isn't an either / or but one that draws upon the merits of both systems?

    I think the issue is often that vacancies are not announced to a wider audience and therefore only those "in the know" are considered for roles.

    Once upon a time I recall a plan to promote all county / district vacancies across the whole area .... and even into neighbouring locations .... but I can't recall this ever really taking off.

    Ultimately the person taking on the role has to be able to work with the person they are responsible to - this will inevitably restrict some excellent individuals ever having a chance to make a positive difference.
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post

    The whole point is that they are people they know. The roles would be different if they were selected more openly.

    If you want a wider selection of ADC/ACC, the place to start is when selecting the DC/CC.
    No it isn't. It's to appoint people they can work with and can do the job. Advertising the vacancy by no means prevents this (or indeed appointing people they already know), but does make sure that "District" isn't seen as unnecessarily remote and may encourage people who the DC knows but wouldn't necessarily have considered as interested in a certain role to apply.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    Surely the process isn't an either / or but one that draws upon the merits of both systems?

    I think the issue is often that vacancies are not announced to a wider audience and therefore only those "in the know" are considered for roles.

    Once upon a time I recall a plan to promote all county / district vacancies across the whole area .... and even into neighbouring locations .... but I can't recall this ever really taking off.

    Ultimately the person taking on the role has to be able to work with the person they are responsible to - this will inevitably restrict some excellent individuals ever having a chance to make a positive difference.
    For once we agree!
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  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    For once we agree!
    I'm having an off day!
    Mark Pullen
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  7. #20
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    I'm having an off day!
    Ha, more like an "on" day!
    Chris Hawes, District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District and Watford Scouts; Group Treasurer and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group.
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  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Ha, more like an "on" day!
    Don't worry - it'll pass!
    Mark Pullen
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    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  9. #22
    Senior Member Matt Donnelly's Avatar
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    If a commissioner appoints people who simply agree with them, then you have the root of many issues in Scouting. Critical voices are absolutely necessary to ensure the long-term health of an organisation. It seems however the focus is on a commissioner building their personal team for their stint at the helm - which is daft as it is there to support the district's members not backup the commissioners point-of-view.

    Perhaps we really have become too corporate if this is our approach to building support teams?
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  11. #23
    Keith at 2M Keith at 2M's Avatar
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    Its inevitable that a newly appointed DC, who has probably come out of a specific group or social circle, will appoint his friends as people that he can work with easily - its basic human nature. There will be enough new faces to acquaint him/herself with without necessarily having them on the District Team as well. However, this just leads to polarisation and Groups who are overlooked in this process become easily disenfranchised - they feel that they have little/no input into 'their' District. I would have thought that a good DC will therefore aim for a wide spread of Team members from right across the District.

    My own Group for example, despite being the third largest in the District (120+ membership) have never been part of any District Team/Exec for over 13 years and understandably feel that District isn't actually anything to do with us.
    The Roman Empire did not become great by holding meetings. It did so by killing everyone that opposed their point of view.

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  13. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith at 2M View Post
    Its inevitable that a newly appointed DC, who has probably come out of a specific group or social circle, will appoint his friends as people that he can work with easily - its basic human nature.
    no, it is not inevitable at all

    a new manager at work who only appoints his buddies would be a bad manager.

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  15. #25
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    no, it is not inevitable at all

    a new manager at work who only appoints his buddies would be a bad manager.

    But in some places that is exactly what happens.
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  16. #26
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    But in some places that is exactly what happens.
    Gosh.

  17. #27
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    Well our County have just started the process of searching for a new DC for our District as our current job sharing DCs come to the end of their terms at the end of the year and have decided they do not wish to serve a second term.

    We have had an email outlining the search process and asking for nominations (either of other people or self nominations) with an outline role description etc. Which all seems fairly open to me. I must admit that no really obvious candidates spring to mind and I do know a fair number of the Leaders in the District so I can see why a CC might end up appointing someone they know who maybe has held another District or County role.

    It does cocur to me that sometimes people seem to complain that they have not been appointed to a District role when they have never offered their services on the assumption they would not be appointed so there is no point applying which is a rather self fulfilling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    Scarlet Pimps experience doesn't match mine in the Districts I've served in. I hope he doesn't think his 'predicament' is common place - or tar everyone with the same brush.
    I know its not Mallah but thats why we have to highlight poor practice in the hope that "managers" actually do something to address the cronyism.

    Despite the UKCC reply he must this process is not objective so he clearly must be happy that it delivers what he is seeking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Well our County have just started the process of searching for a new DC for our District as our current job sharing DCs come to the end of their terms at the end of the year and have decided they do not wish to serve a second term.

    We have had an email outlining the search process and asking for nominations (either of other people or self nominations) with an outline role description etc. Which all seems fairly open to me. I must admit that no really obvious candidates spring to mind and I do know a fair number of the Leaders in the District so I can see why a CC might end up appointing someone they know who maybe has held another District or County role.

    It does occur to me that sometimes people seem to complain that they have not been appointed to a District role when they have never offered their services on the assumption they would not be appointed so there is no point applying which is a rather self fulfilling
    Lets hope for your Districts sake they choose well. As a poor DC will have a major impact and their nought you can do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    150 leaders nominating the same leader??? amazing. Wonder how they did that? did they use the correct 'form' or did they spoil their ballot paper? or was it just a 'you've got my vote mate' down the pub comment?

    10 people applied to be a DC??? now I am suspicious!
    I understand the 150+ came about as they did not want a certain person to be appointed DC so canvassed and supported their own candidate - who was then effectively and promptly ignored by the CC. Yes the CC did appointed their friend to be DC and Yes their very poor.

    As to District getting 10 applications - it is a very large District and only one was given an interview.

  19. #29
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doughboy View Post
    Yes - and it used to be that the new DC would conduct a review of all appointments he/she manages within 6 months of being appointed. (However, I can't find the relevant POR ref to this is still in place)
    sorry i missed this. let me give you a helping hand.

    you are correct. on the appointment of a DC all appointments held at district level are subject to review. the rule you are looking for, iirc (and you really are challenging my memory here!) is in the appointment process appendix to POR. i think it's section 5 clause j/k/l/m - it's one of them! (i recall there's a review manager table about half way down, about h or i, so it's one of those following!)

    the appendix is a part of POR. the processes detailed there are rules.

    GSL appointments were re-defined a couple of years or so ago as district level appointments.

    The rule, iirc, is for a review of all district level appointments within 6 months of the appointment of a DC (it is not just those appointments the DC directly line manages).

    in one of the district's i was in a new DC was appointed while i was a GSL. my appointment, afaiaa, was not reviewed.

    i suspect no review form was sent to the DC. i was certainly not informed that my appointment was up for review.

    in my experience this rule is largely ignored.

    i'm just a caretaker. i do apologise if my poor memory fails me once again but i'm sure someone here will correct me if it has done so!

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 15-09-2015 at 12:44 AM.
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  20. #30
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    No, because GSLs are not the same as ADC/ACC - they aren't specifically intended to be the DC/CC's sidekick in the same way. The thing I'd change about GSLs is making them the direct line manager of the Section Leaders, which they presently sort-of aren't - much of the responsibility is with the DC.
    i'm sorry but you are wrong here and in your earlier statements.

    ADC and ACC appointments are NOT terminated when a (new) DC (for district appointments) or CC (for county appointments) is appointed.

    iirc (and i know you will most certainly test my memory!) termination of appointments is made under rule 15.7

    ....and that refers you to the appointment process appendix.

    ....and there, if my appalling memory serves me still, the reasons for terminating an appointment are given in section 7 - i remember that bit!- and clause a - it's got to be the first one, i think.

    NONE of these say any appointment is terminated on the appointment of a new DC (or CC)

    on the appointment of a new DC (or CC for county) all district (or county) level appointments are subject to review. that review, by the new DC (or CC for county) may decide to terminate the appointments, but that is not automatic.

    GSLs, like ADCs, are a district level appointment. they are both subject to automatic review on the appointment of a new DC, as are all district level appointments whether the DC is the line manager or not, as i mentioned earlier.

    furthermore, as i also mentioned earlier, you will find in the same section of POR, section 5 clause h or i (blinking memory!!! i wish it was as good as others - keep getting shown up by the cognoscenti on 1FB these days!), the table - i think it's a table not a list! - states that the GSL is the line manager of all group appointments. period.

    the DC is the line manager of some district level appointments.

    The whole point is that they are people they know. The roles would be different if they were selected more openly.

    If you want a wider selection of ADC/ACC, the place to start is when selecting the DC/CC.
    we should have an open application and selection process for these appointments, with skills to do the job being of primary importance, but the DC/CC must have a say and must feel they are capable and happy to work with the appointment.

    TM
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