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Thread: Membership Fees

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    you're making life difficult for yourself by referring to 18-25 Year Olds as Youth Members?.
    Members of the Scout Network are youth members. They follow the youth programme offered to members of a youth section. Yes, they're adults (because they're 18+), but they're youth members of the movement.


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    Reading this thread leads me to believe that Scouting provision for the over 14's is not straightforward (its a mess), and for the over 18's outside of leader positions, it's as good as non-existent.

    Interestingly, our experience of the change from VS's to Explorers and Network was; HQ (in Scotland anyway, who were huge fans of the change) were concerned that under 18's were participating in adult-orientated activities they didn't approve of, and with the change it meant they could could get young people involved in adult activities they did approve of.

    In the midst of it all, we sort of thought they'd missed the point.

    I remember at the Network launch camp, a pretty hard working leader who'd been involved in all sorts of VS stuff (he worked pretty hard) was told he was welcome to come to the camp, but he could only participate in 'service activities.'

    It was a bit of a mess. But I digress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Reading this thread leads me to believe that Scouting provision for the over 14's is not straightforward (its a mess), and for the over 18's outside of leader positions, it's as good as non-existent.
    [snip]
    It was a bit of a mess. But I digress.
    The 2015 census had 2286 Network members. The ones that do do it, love it with a passion, but I digress. And on your last point, well, it wasn't too bad around our way, but as a VSL to be told "find yourself a new home, 'cos you ain't gonna be a Network leader" stuck in the craw a bit. Still, I try not to be bitter.

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    The 2015 census had 2286 Network members. The ones that do do it, love it with a passion, but I digress. And on your last point, well, it wasn't too bad around our way, but as a VSL to be told "find yourself a new home, 'cos you ain't gonna be a Network leader" stuck in the craw a bit. Still, I try not to be bitter.

    Ian
    I'd be interested to know, VSL's in Scotland were essentially told we were no longer required - Explorers (for what ever reason) was adopted by Scout Leaders (I don't know why it went that way, maybe the reputation of VSL's was tainted - I don't know). So for VSL's, we just thought we'd move to Network, but I well remember being told in no uncertain terms by a snotty wee nyaff that anyone over 25 was persona non grata and they'd be running it themselves... Until they needed a minibus... Or access to a hall (many Group Committees weren't keen on unsupervised 'Youth' groups using their halls - mines wasn't...) Or something booked, (we had very few members over 18 never mind 21...)

    Was it national policy that all VSL's were essentially ejected from Network? I would have been about 26 or 27 at the time...

  5. #35
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Most of the VSLs in our District became ESLs and took on the running of ESUs with some new Leaders also opening more ESUs and even more being opened since then. We have no real functioning Network although we do have a pretty healthy SSAGO which we have good links with as a District.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Was it national policy that all VSL's were essentially ejected from Network? I would have been about 26 or 27 at the time...
    No, I don't think so, what happened in my district, not sure where they got the ESLs from, one group organised their own leaders as they had a bunch of scouts aging out before Explorers officially started. We had a healthy VSU that turned into a Network (with me fighting for the much vaunted flexibility to be actually applied so 16 year old Ventures didn't have to suddenly become part of Explorers, when everyone else in the VSU went to the Network - I won that battle). The county said they wanted area or district (can't remember) County Scout Network Leaders, and asked the other VSL to do that. They said that was all the leadership that was required. While trying to find a home I discovered we had one Explorer Unit that had plenty of leaders, and then another unit at a group that didn't have many leaders...so I went there. Then carried on going to Network as well as Explorers, linking you see.

    So no, I don't think there was a conspiracy, at least, not around here, I would guess just the usual lack of communication, with districts knowing they had to sort out the new explorer provision, so went out and found leaders for it, without realising that some leaders of Ventures wouldn't be required by county.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    No, I don't think so, what happened in my district, not sure where they got the ESLs from, one group organised their own leaders as they had a bunch of scouts aging out before Explorers officially started. We had a healthy VSU that turned into a Network (with me fighting for the much vaunted flexibility to be actually applied so 16 year old Ventures didn't have to suddenly become part of Explorers, when everyone else in the VSU went to the Network - I won that battle). The county said they wanted area or district (can't remember) County Scout Network Leaders, and asked the other VSL to do that. They said that was all the leadership that was required. While trying to find a home I discovered we had one Explorer Unit that had plenty of leaders, and then another unit at a group that didn't have many leaders...so I went there. Then carried on going to Network as well as Explorers, linking you see.

    So no, I don't think there was a conspiracy, at least, not around here, I would guess just the usual lack of communication, with districts knowing they had to sort out the new explorer provision, so went out and found leaders for it, without realising that some leaders of Ventures wouldn't be required by county.
    Interesting.

    I think in Scotland, it was handled differently. I remember being at the Network launch camp and it all got a bit fraught. I remember at one point being asked to leave the hall where my VS's were (who by chance were all over 18 or very close to it) but I refused - mostly on the basis that leaders had been treated quite poorly and that one of the reasons for doing VS's (or any Scouting really) is that you get to spend time with your members. I don't think at the time I appreciated just how hell bent Scottish HQ was in enforcing (not a word I use lightly) the no over 25's rule.*

    Later on, other leaders refused to shake my hand on introduction because they knew I didn't agree with the policy. It wasn't just for my own gratification that I didn't agree either, our group committee wasn't prepared to let Network run in our hall, use equipment or the minibus - they didn't want it running without an 'adult leader' at all - I knew it was basically going to close - when we did finish not long after**, we had the biggest VSU in our district, there was only one other VSU and they were in the same boat.

    * In truth, something needed to be done about Venture Scouts, there was a lot of things going on that needed to stop anyway, I think HQ saw it as an opportunity but got a wee bit heavy handed with it. It was an interesting time.

    ** To be fair, it wasn't just the no over-25's thing because we probably could have carried on, but not being able to take people in at 15.5 or even 14 meant incomers dried up - there was no Explorer provision in the district, they tried, but it never took off. That was down to leaders not getting on though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Later on, other leaders refused to shake my hand on introduction because they knew I didn't agree with the policy. It wasn't just for my own gratification that I didn't agree either, our group committee wasn't prepared to let Network run in our hall, use equipment or the minibus - they didn't want it running without an 'adult leader' at all
    Whyever not?

    There were many CSNCs who were under 25...

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Whyever not?

    There were many CSNCs who were under 25...
    I know of an ACC who is 22.

    Rule 66. A map and compass offers no protection against getting horribly lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Whyever not?

    There were many CSNCs who were under 25...
    No trust between the Group Committee and the VS section.

    In an ideal world you might have had very smartly dressed young people who did their VS award and get all the badges, but that tended not to be the case. In short, the group felt it needed supervised and ours wasn't alone - and if I'm being honest, they were probably right.

    I think at the time, there was a definite chicken and egg argument taking place somewhere. Those pushing the strict no over-25's rule felt that young people couldn't build the confidence to organise their own things if over-25's were there all the time 'leading'. As a leader who at the time was just over-25 (and I wasn't alone), we tried to explain that all we really did was enable and on some occasions reel in some ideas that were perhaps a wee bit ambitious or out there - we also gently suggested, if they wanted young people to build the confidence to deal with older people and be assertive, they probably needed to have some older people to practice on. VS's was youth-led long before the term became trendy today, the young folk were already building the confidence to work with older people.

    In reality, it was felt at national level (in Scotland mind), the no over-25's policy was so enthusiastically impressed because there were some over-25's who were - shall we say - problematic; they really needed chucked out. Unfortunately a lot more decent people also got tarred with the same brush and got chucked out too.

    There was a lot of ill-feeling on all levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1stupton View Post
    so if it's a youth section, then any members not having a leadership role in Scouting should be treated as all the other youth member and pay capitation.
    so if a youth section then they dont need a dbs on overnifht at scout camp.or are they suddenly an adult?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by scarlet pimp View Post
    so if a youth section then they dont need a dbs on overnifht at scout camp.or are they suddenly an adult?!
    No, they do not need a dbs, actually, if memory serves, it's not legal to dbs them, if they do not have a leadership role at the camp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    No, they do not need a dbs, actually, if memory serves, it's not legal to dbs them, if they do not have a leadership role at the camp.
    i was careful to word staying overnight at a scout camp.In this case they do need a dbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Most of the VSLs in our District became ESLs and took on the running of ESUs with some new Leaders also opening more ESUs and even more being opened since then. We have no real functioning Network although we do have a pretty healthy SSAGO which we have good links with as a District.
    our vsl were told they were no longer requited. district tried running with one unit.As district too large few would travel and after two years there were few explorers. so groups were allowed to set up units and the old vsl reappeared along with gsl input.explorer nos soared. explorers should have the ability to be an intergral part of the group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scarlet pimp View Post
    i was careful to word staying overnight at a scout camp.In this case they do need a dbs.
    No they don't, unless that camp site has a local rule. But even with that local rule it is not legal to DBS for that reason alone, which would mean that those campsites simply are not available to Network members.

    The law is an ass, but it is nonetheless the law.

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