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Thread: Re Duty to the Queen

  1. #16
    Senior Member CambridgeSkip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    To incorporate an alternative Head of State, it either entails:

    1. A complete redesign of our entire political system to a Presidential system
    2. A pointless ceremonial figurehead being elected at vast expense
    3. A pointless ceremonial figurehead being appointed by parliament at a lesser unnecessary expense
    4. Shoehorning the Head of State title onto an existing role such as PM (Commons Speaker wouldn't be appropriate considering their role)
    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    To incorporate an alternative Head of State, it either entails:

    1. A complete redesign of our entire political system to a Presidential system
    2. A pointless ceremonial figurehead being elected at vast expense
    3. A pointless ceremonial figurehead being appointed by parliament at a lesser unnecessary expense
    4. Shoehorning the Head of State title onto an existing role such as PM (Commons Speaker wouldn't be appropriate considering their role)
    Personally I'm a fan of the Irish system. The President there has very little power with most of it resting with the Oireachtas (The Irish equivalent of Parliament) and Prime Minister. The powers of the president are not that much greater than that of the Queen here and they effectively act as a chief ambasador. As I understand it the only real power they have that our monarch doesn't is;

    In certain circumstances refer a bill passed by Oireachtas to a referendum before passing it.
    Summon both houses of the Oireachtas to meet if for some reason they deem in necessary and they have not met.
    Unlike our monarch they represent Ireland in international affairs BUT when doing so act on the instructions of the Prime Minister. Bit like a barrister acting on instructions from a solicitor

    In terms of expense the actual cost of holding an election is actually quite minimal. Print and distribute ballot papers. Hire church halls and the like as polling stations. Most of the staff are volunteers. How much the candidates spend on campaigning is their problem, not that of the taxpayer!

    As it happens I would also like to see a directly elected Prime Minister, ditto the other senior members of the cabinet. Chancellor, deputy PM, Home, foreign, Defence, Health and Education secretaries. I don't think our current constitution has enough separation of the executive and legislative bodies. It also means that if the PM happens to be your local MP you don't get the proper service that I would expect from my local MP. How many constituency surgeries do you think the PM has time to run? But that's another story.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Absolutely not. I do not owe anything to Parliament; I owe a duty to the country, represented by the Queen as Head of State.
    Well I'd argue that parliament is elected to represent the people and therefore the country, but as already highlighted the point is debatable.

  3. #18
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    Well I'd argue that parliament is elected to represent the people and therefore the country, but as already highlighted the point is debatable.
    parliament is elected to do its own wishes.
    enough of this treasonable talk or else i'll send a company of CCF around!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    What to some is "old fashioned" is to others a charming bit of history. I don't personally feel that promising to do my duty to the Queen is deference, it's what the Queen symbolises.

    OTOH, I would be happy with "duty to my God and my country". Indeed, I used to use "my God" for Network years ago even though it's not an official variant, it just makes it more personal.
    But the problem is, its not a charming bit of history, the simpering patronage is going on today. It needs to be scaled back... A lot...

    Interestingly (and I know this will be contentious, but here goes...) There are comparisons to be drawn with the 'God' part of the promise - and I'm not saying this is the case, because it is a subjective thing. In the same way religion could be seen as a vehicle for informing, building and affirming a positive moral code, promising to do your duty to the Queen could be said to be a vehicle for coalescing a sense of honour, esprit de corps and integrity. My (timid) question would be - do we need a vehicle for those things? Do we need a prop or focal point to be decent human beings, especially when that prop or focal point may not be worthy or display the same qualities it hopes to encourage in others?






    (I still don't think we should get rid of the monarchy/royal theme park, because some of it is charming and if nothing else; good for tourism.)

  6. #20
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    Well I'd argue that parliament is elected to represent the people and therefore the country, but as already highlighted the point is debatable.
    They are elected representatives, not delegates or indeed imbued with any authority past May 2020...
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    enough of this treasonable talk or else i'll send a company of CCF around!
    Sophie the Red Sixer says the last CCF battalion they met ''Tasted like Chicken ''
    Last edited by Tony Ransley; 16-02-2016 at 11:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    But the problem is, its not a charming bit of history, the simpering patronage is going on today.
    Is it? I really don't feel it.

  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Other than the idea of having a waste-of-space-and-money elected head of state, I agree entirely.
    Thats better than having a waste of space minority elected clown for Prime Minster
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  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-uk View Post
    Thats better than having a waste of space minority elected clown for Prime Minster
    You don't elect the Prime Minister in any form unless he is your local MP, at which he obtained a majority or he would not have been elected.

    Surprising numbers of people don't understand the electoral system.

  12. #25
    Senior Member roger-uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    You don't elect the Prime Minister in any form unless he is your local MP, at which he obtained a majority or he would not have been elected.

    Surprising numbers of people don't understand the electoral system.
    Err has there ever been a Leader of a party elected at a general election not been PM
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  13. #26
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    Me, I'm a Nationalist. I can take or leave the Monarchy.

    I can remember the day of the launch of QE2, we were dragged out of school and taken to line the road to wave at Princess Margaret as she drove past ( was driven past). We stood in the cold, it was a grey day, I don't recall if it was wet. And were were excited that there would be a parade for us to see. A cavalcade of about five cars and a police escort drove past at speed without so much as a wave or a a glance at the kids lining the roads. From that day on I have never been moved too much by the Monarchy.

    The Queen does a job for us, Phil is a jolly old chap, not sure I'd want to cross him, and Charles is a pretty decent bloke too, I'm sure. Oh he gets some stick about Diana, but let's face it, she was no angel and about as far from being a commoner as I am from being an aristocrat.

    They are people who do what they do because it was what they were landed with at birth.

    The Queen is the head of state of the country I live in, therefore I am happy with that (not that we Navs make such a promise). If things were to change and we had a President, that president would, by the nature of things, be a political beast, and the nature of the promise would have to change completely.

    This is one that you should let lie. Gilwell should respond with a line in the sand on this one. Those who feel unable to comply with the promise should consider moving where it is not an issue - Navigators or Woodcraft Folk, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-uk View Post
    Err has there ever been a Leader of a party elected at a general election not been PM


    There have been Prime Ministers who became heads of a party in Government who became so unpopular that they lost their party the election...
    Ewan Scott

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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    ............. Most of the staff are volunteer. .......
    Point of order: Staff at Polling stations & counts for elections, referendums, etc. are not volunteers (at least in my LA). They are staff employed by the Returning Officer and get paid by the LA (not a lot I admit for what can be a sixteen-plus hour day). In addition in my LA, they are required to attend a training session (for which they also get paid).
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  15. #28
    ASL Kev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-uk View Post
    Err has there ever been a Leader of a party elected at a general election not been PM
    I don't think so but then nobody elected Gordon Brown as PM.

  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    This is one that you should let lie. Gilwell should respond with a line in the sand on this one. Those who feel unable to comply with the promise should consider moving where it is not an issue - Navigators or Woodcraft Folk, for example.
    Wow, that paragraph could be found at the start of the removal of God from the promise debate! De Ja Vue?

    He who receives a good turn should never forget it; he who does one should never remember it.

  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-uk View Post
    Err has there ever been a Leader of a party elected at a general election not been PM
    Yes. There is not always a general election when the leader changes.

    I'm not saying I agree with the system, but nobody other than the Party elects any Prime Minister. The first thing to do when proposing electoral reform is to fully understand what you are reforming - and in our case that is effectively a cascaded system of responsibility based on the election of local representatives.

    By that I mean the only thing you vote for is your MP, and that is on the basis of a simple majority. Everything else cascades from that.

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