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Thread: New Scout Group - Membership fees

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    That might be how it is on paper, but its often not how it is in reality.

    There are two EU's operating where I am and an unspecified number of Explorers attending Scouts or staying on as YL's. No one asked and 'district' is content for that to continue.
    We are short of ESUs in our district, I was interested in starting one myself. We are in a small town in quite a rural district which is named after a larger town at the other end of the district. District decided that they wanted to start one in a small village on the border of our district (there are plenty of ESUs in the neighbouring district which is based in a large town). As I understand it, there was no venue available, no local adult volunteers and no adult volunteers prepared to travel there and any potential Explorers could walk to a choice of two ESUs in the neighbouring district. That exercise has taken several years. My kids both go to ESUs in the neighbouring district. It probably worked out best for them, but district drove me nuts!

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    Just don't pay! District have to cover it for time being as capitation is leveled through districts. If nothing else you could probably stretch it out to the middle of the year. A good dcwould find a way to support the issue particularly if prospects look good.
    Paul Austin
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    Well, I seem to have taken a bit of a beating!! I am not going to discuss this in detail as there are some elements of confidentiality that will not be disclosed.

    Bad planning? Started the process in January 2015. No due diligence or common sense? – Regional Development team were involved right from the start. At the time of project planning, the Supplement Grant Programme was in place so we had planned for that. And as for the comment engaging brain before jumping in with both feet, then I find that offensive. I have bad knees and wish I could jump.

    We have been encouraged to grow Scouting. Great play is made of getting Scouting into re-development areas. This Group is in such an area. I have no proof, but I expect that there was an impetus from TSA to get this Group going.

    Unexpected delays occurred. Yes, we could have put all the clever things that people have posted into place, but there were a number of children who were champing at the bit to join, and to tell them that because the rules had changed and they would have to wait another 3 months just so we could beat the system, was not we are about – After all it's "Scouting for All". Any delay they could have just gone away as we were living up to the promises.

    So my question to Wayne was simply based on a rule that was in place when the Regional Development team started to help us and advise on this project. Some sort of transitional relief for projects in process is all I ask for, no change in rules, after all they are doing that for existing Groups who incur additional Census fees with the Youth based fee – Bet nobody is complaining about that! Perhaps we can apply for that?
    Last edited by carpeni; 01-03-2016 at 11:05 PM.

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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BREWBOY View Post
    Only found out District Explorer Commisioners name this morning,although i had met others from District,and had my appointments interview,thats all
    Sometimes I wonder if I'm playing the same game. That's not aimed at you Brewboy BTW, but how a DESC could be so remote as to have not met leaders in a new unit beggars belief. Maybe I'm just lucky I guess.

    Ian
    Ian Wilkins
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  7. #50
    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBaloo View Post
    Mark, you seem to have missed my post #20, after an earlier comment of yours about support from District:
    I didn't miss the point but forming an Explorer Unit needs District support.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Just don't pay! District have to cover it for time being as capitation is leveled through districts. If nothing else you could probably stretch it out to the middle of the year. A good dcwould find a way to support the issue particularly if prospects look good.
    Okay "for time being" but still doesn't resolve the OP issue. If they then have to generate extra funds to pay back then it will still increase pressure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by carpeni View Post
    Well, I seem to have taken a bit of a beating!! I am not going to discuss this in detail as there are some elements of confidentiality that will not be disclosed.

    Bad planning? Started the process in January 2015. No due diligence or common sense? Regional Development team were involved right from the start. At the time of project planning, the Supplement Grant Programme was in place so we had planned for that. And as for the comment engaging brain before jumping in with both feet, then I find that offensive. I have bad knees and wish I could jump.

    We have been encouraged to grow Scouting. Great play is made of getting Scouting into re-development areas. This Group is in such an area. I have no proof, but I expect that there was an impetus from TSA to get this Group going.

    Unexpected delays occurred. Yes, we could have put all the clever things that people have posted into place, but there were a number of children who were champing at the bit to join, and to tell them that because the rules had changed and they would have to wait another 3 months just so we could beat the system, was not we are about After all it's "Scouting for All". Any delay they could have just gone away as we were living up to the promises.

    So my question to Wayne was simply based on a rule that was in place when the Regional Development team started to help us and advise on this project. Some sort of transitional relief for projects in process is all I ask for, no change in rules, after all they are doing that for existing Groups who incur additional Census fees with the Youth based fee Bet nobody is complaining about that! Perhaps we can apply for that?
    So when the SGP was removed there was nobody from the RGT or District saying "oops! we need to take this into account"?

    If you plan a camp and find that the site increase its fees you don't wait until the invoice is handed over to raise the problem so why is this any different.

    Certainly a case of bad planning and lack of foresight if no contingency was in place.
    Mark Pullen
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    Quote Originally Posted by BREWBOY View Post
    Not sure if thats true,its down to persiverance and hard work,I started without a bean in January no help from our group or District,so far i have managed to get
    funds just short of 1300,and purchased equipment for our first camp,lots of letters,form filling,networking and sheer ****** mindedness to get the job done.
    Simple point though is that you shouldn't have to be sheer ******* minded. Group or District (as appropriate) should be supporting the set up financially through the first year with initial costs, even if it is on a long-term loan basis.
    Chris Hawes, District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District and Watford Scouts; Group Treasurer and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    I didn't miss the point but forming an Explorer Unit needs District support...........
    My comments are no less valid for that (as subsequent postings seem to have demonstrated ) - and at the point they were made the discussion was with regard to a new Group!
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


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    New Scout Group - Membership fees

    Mm - I thank you for your wisdom and next time we know where to come for help.
    Last edited by carpeni; 02-03-2016 at 09:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    Certainly a case of bad planning and lack of foresight if no contingency was in place.
    Fine, but do you kick a man when he's down, or give him a helping hand up?
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    That might be how it is on paper, but its often not how it is in reality.

    There are two EU's operating where I am and an unspecified number of Explorers attending Scouts or staying on as YL's. No one asked and 'district' is content for that to continue.

    POR is fine if it can be made to work, but if it can't (and it isn't a question of safety being impinged) then you just get on with making things work.
    Your DC, DEX and DESC should all resign for presiding over and being content with such a situation.
    Chris Hawes, District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District and Watford Scouts; Group Treasurer and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Your DC, DEX and DESC should all resign for presiding over and being content with such a situation.
    I suspect an additional runway at Heathrow to deal with all the flying pigs is more likely!
    Does anyone know what's going on?

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Your DC, DEX and DESC should all resign for presiding over and being content with such a situation.
    and that's going to make a great difference. As long as they learn from mistakes they will get wiser.

    We have not got enough volunteers to be so Blaise with them.

    The person who never made a mistake - never made anything
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    Senior Member Mallah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    If you plan a camp and find that the site increase its fees you don't wait until the invoice is handed over to raise the problem so why is this any different.
    Probably a poor choice of comparison? A camp site would communicate the increase in fee directly with you as someone who has booked a site. The removal of SGP would have been a 'general' notice, quite likely hidden within other notices, which few of us would have seen at the time.

    That aside, surely the prospect of paying AMS would have been something that was/is expected. In setting up this ESU that should have been accounted for, whether fully or in part with agreement with District. It 'looks' as if no one considered this, or it was simply assumed it was obvious to people who are not new to the game.

    I don't think there is a way 'around' this. The requirement is to pay AMS based on members at the end of Jan - nothing new and has been the case for many years. As such you will need to find a way of paying this even though you haven't been meeting for a full year, it's just the way the mop flops. Alternatively come to an agreement with your Group or District to pay a lesser sum - with whoever that is picking up the difference.

    Finally, just put it down to experience. I'm sure you are now more fully aware of the requirements of AMS when setting up a new section part way through the year.

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    Fair point Roger - we don't have enough leaders to dispense with people lightly. Unfortunately that seems to be the way of things certainly at lower levels - rather than having a friendly means of developing people that make mistakes its easier to force them out. That however is partly due to people at management levels not being held accountable for having such an approach to volunteer management. Perhaps when we have a working computer system that enables trends in volunteer retention to be monitored some in management positions might have their stats looked at if they seem to have a disproportionate level of departures.
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    Fair point Roger - we don't have enough leaders to dispense with people lightly. Unfortunately that seems to be the way of things certainly at lower levels - rather than having a friendly means of developing people that make mistakes its easier to force them out. That however is partly due to people at management levels not being held accountable for having such an approach to volunteer management. Perhaps when we have a working computer system that enables trends in volunteer retention to be monitored some in management positions might have their stats looked at if they seem to have a disproportionate level of departures.
    It's not just that though, as a society we have a propensity to fire people for making mistakes instead of allowing them to learn from them. See big business and government as prime examples.

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