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Thread: New Scout Group - Membership fees

  1. #61
    Senior Member BREWBOY's Avatar
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    Certainly a case of bad planning and lack of foresight if no contingency was in place.
    If you manage to set up a much needed unit and the Explorers are having fun,that can never be called bad planning,
    Stick with it carpeni I'm sure your foresight will ensure a great unit for years to come and thats your legacy,
    chin up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BREWBOY View Post
    If you manage to set up a much needed unit and the Explorers are having fun,that can never be called bad planning,
    Stick with it carpeni I'm sure your foresight will ensure a great unit for years to come and thats your legacy,
    chin up.
    Agree with this, stick with it. Ignore the POR absolutists & jobsworths and just get on with providing safe, fun Scouting. Not sure where you are, but any new group or unit starting up near to us would get our support, not our criticism.

    Really disappointing to read some of the comments here. Fair enough that you might drive away a person from the forum, but that they could be driven from Scouting completely? On account of a duff rule? Is that what we're about these days?

    Disappointing.

  3. #63
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger-uk View Post
    and that's going to make a great difference. As long as they learn from mistakes they will get wiser.

    We have not got enough volunteers to be so Blaise with them.

    '
    If they are not doing their roles, they are little use as volunteers. These are not front-line roles, so don't have any impact on day-to-day Scouting.

    If they are so unwilling to do their role properly, as is clear from the post I quoted, they shouldn't be in role.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Fine, but do you kick a man when he's down, or give him a helping hand up?
    So what help have others offered except to condemn the system that's in place?

    Please let me be clear that the fault lies with the lack of support when planning for the new group and this isn't the task of an individual but a team created for such a venture.

    If they've failed - and that is what it is - in planning for this eventuality then the consequences are what they are.

    Changing the system, or requesting it to be reviewed, via the UKCC won't change the fact that the oversight has brought about the additional pressure on the group.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    Probably a poor choice of comparison? A camp site would communicate the increase in fee directly with you as someone who has booked a site. The removal of SGP would have been a 'general' notice, quite likely hidden within other notices, which few of us would have seen at the time.
    But we're told that the Regional Development Team were involved with creating the new group - that's certainly one part of our organisation that is meant to be clued up. Along with DCs who should be making it their business to keep abreast with things.
    Mark Pullen
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  5. #65
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    These are not front-line roles, so don't have any impact on day-to-day Scouting.
    Wow.

    I'm a DESC. I've been encouraging and helping a leader who wants their nights away. There's a camp this weekend, their assessment camp. If they weren't running it, there wouldn't be one.

    We've got a camp in a month's time, District Explorers and Network, I'm running it. If I wasn't running it, it probably wouldn't happen.

    I organise district wide explorer activities, with my explorer leaders.

    We had a YL training camp the other week, I hope the YLs learnt something to take back to their groups, to use in their day to day scouting.

    I encourage and support my explorer leaders. Would they still be so enthusiastic if they hadn't seen me for a year? Would they be more likely to think of jacking it in? Maybe, maybe not, a bit imponderable that one.

    Of course, if your district is a basket case, or interfering micromanagers, then maybe you wouldn't miss them if they weren't there. Luckily, not everyone is in that position.

    So, I'd contend that people not in front line roles *do* have an impact on front line scouting, maybe directly, maybe not, but to say they don't have any impact, well, I disagree.

    Ian
    Last edited by ianw; 02-03-2016 at 11:18 AM.
    Ian Wilkins
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  6. #66
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    I'm finding the hypocrisy on astounding recently!

    It seems that backing the "victim" and attacking the system is the only way forward in a thread!

    Scouting is more than rules and guidelines but ignoring basic considerations seem to have created a difficult and challenging situation for a new group.
    I sympathise with the leaders, YP, and parents but I suspect that we're not hearing the full story about the process that took place to start it up.
    If District and the Regional Development Team were involved then monetary matters would have been part of the planning in advance of throwing open the doors to the meeting place.

    The OP indicates that a Group Exec is still not in place so who was overseeing the obligation to the charity commission to having a financially sound organisation?

    I've created a Group before - albeit a splinter group from one that already existed - and the finances played a major part in the decision as to when it was appropriate to "go live".

    Maybe I'm seen as one of the "POR absolutists & jobsworths" that pa_broon74 refers to?
    Personally I'm more than comfortable with my thoughts and approach to developing Scouting to provide it with the strongest possible foundations.

    The OP says that they can't disclose additional information - let's hope that Wayne gathers additional details and refers the situation, and how it came about, to the relevant commissioners.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Not sure where you are, but any new group or unit starting up near to us would get our support, not our criticism.
    What support would you offer?

    Financial, equipment, sharing execs?

    Not seen anything in your posts to clarify details but keen to know so that carpeni can consider approaching their local groups for similar offers.
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Wow.

    I'm a DESC. I've been encouraging and helping a leader who wants their nights away. There's a camp this weekend, their assessment camp. If they weren't running it, there wouldn't be one.

    We've got a camp in a month's time, District Explorers and Network, I'm running it. If I wasn't running it, it probably wouldn't happen.

    I organise district wide explorer activities, with my explorer leaders.

    We had a YL training camp the other week, I hope the YLs learnt something to take back to their groups, to use in their day to day scouting.

    I encourage and support my explorer leaders. Would they still be so enthusiastic if they hadn't seen me for a year? Would they be more likely to think of jacking it in? Maybe, maybe not, a bit imponderable that one.

    Of course, if your district is a basket case, or interfering micromanagers, then maybe you wouldn't miss them if they weren't there. Luckily, not everyone is in that position.

    So, I'd contend that people not in front line roles *do* have an impact on front line scouting, maybe directly, maybe not, but to say they don't have any impact, well, I disagree.

    Ian
    I'd welcome you in our district Ian, I'm often genuinely perplexed when our DESC is mentioned in any context to do with day to day Explorer'ing. Our DESC had a tough job; first of all he wasn't dealing with one unit, he was dealing with two (perhaps three) plus several Explorer scouts who were still attending their scout troop meetings (Scouts in our district still hesitate to get involved on a district level - they know what they like and like what they know...) Secondly, he kept banging on about this Explorer Forum thing - we tried to tell him it wouldn't work, we were hard pushed to get good attendance at the shiny stuff, never mind the 'boring' planning stuff.

    I don't know if we have a DESC any more but I know a good DESC would be worth his or her weight in gold.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I'd welcome you in our district Ian, I'm often genuinely perplexed when our DESC is mentioned in any context to do with day to day Explorer'ing. Our DESC had a tough job; first of all he wasn't dealing with one unit, he was dealing with two (perhaps three) plus several Explorer scouts who were still attending their scout troop meetings (Scouts in our district still hesitate to get involved on a district level - they know what they like and like what they know...) Secondly, he kept banging on about this Explorer Forum thing - we tried to tell him it wouldn't work, we were hard pushed to get good attendance at the shiny stuff, never mind the 'boring' planning stuff.

    I don't know if we have a DESC any more but I know a good DESC would be worth his or her weight in gold.
    I've always felt that that the DESC role is probably the most challenging of them all.
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
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    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  9. #69
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    I've always felt that that the DESC role is probably the most challenging of them all.
    Good job I'm so freeekin amazing eh?

    And modest, of course.
    Last edited by ianw; 02-03-2016 at 11:43 AM.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Good job I'm so freeekin amazing eh?
    Steady on!
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    I'm finding the hypocrisy on astounding recently!

    It seems that backing the "victim" and attacking the system is the only way forward in a thread!

    Scouting is more than rules and guidelines but ignoring basic considerations seem to have created a difficult and challenging situation for a new group.
    I sympathise with the leaders, YP, and parents but I suspect that we're not hearing the full story about the process that took place to start it up.
    If District and the Regional Development Team were involved then monetary matters would have been part of the planning in advance of throwing open the doors to the meeting place.

    The OP indicates that a Group Exec is still not in place so who was overseeing the obligation to the charity commission to having a financially sound organisation?

    I've created a Group before - albeit a splinter group from one that already existed - and the finances played a major part in the decision as to when it was appropriate to "go live".

    Maybe I'm seen as one of the "POR absolutists & jobsworths" that pa_broon74 refers to?
    Personally I'm more than comfortable with my thoughts and approach to developing Scouting to provide it with the strongest possible foundations.

    The OP says that they can't disclose additional information - let's hope that Wayne gathers additional details and refers the situation, and how it came about, to the relevant commissioners.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What support would you offer?

    Financial, equipment, sharing execs?

    Not seen anything in your posts to clarify details but keen to know so that carpeni can consider approaching their local groups for similar offers.
    I'm lucky enough to be in a position to offer all of what you list and would, happily. (Carpini, if you're near to East Lothian send me a private message.)

    The problem (mostly) is with the rules in this instance - it was quite clear. If a rule is a barrier then it needs to looked at, many people have said that here and its what I've been saying and will continue to say. Blind abeyance of the rules IS very much part of the problem and I'd question it when ever I can.

    Again with the absolutism - "It seems that backing the "victim" and attacking the system is the only way forward in a thread!" Its not the ONLY thing people have said here, you've picked the points that suit your stance and ignored everything else. I get what you're saying, you're 'not' criticising the poster - but the lack of support from district, but you're not exactly offering anything positive either, you speak of hypocrisy....

    Some districts do not have district support in place and as ASLChris rather clunkily pointed out, sometimes people don't do what they're supposed to do - certainly where I am, we don't seem to operate in the same Scouting/POR utopia some here do - we get on with delivering Scouting that is every bit as safe and useful as any where else, just with out all the useless bureaucracy that some find so essential to the running of things.

    It annoys me when the efforts of some are made to seem slap dash or lacking because they don't follow POR to the letter. If you can do that then great, I couldn't be more pleased - but a lot of districts/Groups can't, they have no choice but to compromise where it is safe and practical to do so.
    Last edited by pa_broon74; 02-03-2016 at 11:51 AM.

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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I'm lucky enough to be in a position to offer all of what you list and would, happily. (Carpini, if you're near to East Lothian send me a private message.)

    The problem (mostly) is with the rules in this instance - it was quite clear. If a rule is a barrier then it needs to looked at, many people have said that here and its what I've been saying and will continue to say. Blind abeyance of the rules IS very much part of the problem and I'd question it when ever I can.

    Again with the absolutism - "It seems that backing the "victim" and attacking the system is the only way forward in a thread!" Its not the ONLY thing people have said here, you've picked the points that suit your stance and ignored everything else. I get what you're saying, you're 'not' criticising the poster - but the lack of support from district, but you're not exactly offering anything positive either, you speak of hypocrisy....

    Some districts do not have district support in place and as ASLChris rather clunkily pointed out, sometimes people don't do what they're supposed to do - certainly where I am, we don't seem to operate in the same Scouting/POR utopia some here do - we get on with delivering Scouting that is every bit as safe and useful as any where else, just with out all the useless bureaucracy that some find so essential to the running of things.

    It annoys me when the efforts of some are made to seem slap dash or lacking because they don't follow POR to the letter. If you can do that then great, I couldn't be more pleased - but a lot of districts/Groups can't, they have no choice but to compromise where it is safe and practical to do so.
    I've never indicated that I was offering support whilst criticising the pre-launch planning .... no hypocrisy whatsoever.

    In addition - at no stage have I indicated that the lack of foresight by the planners is about POR itself.

    I hope that carpeni and their group manage to weather the storm and the idea of discussing with local grant providers such as the community organisations helps to soften the blow.

    I also hope that the DC and Regional Development team have learned serious lessons if, as seems to be indicated, they took their eye of the ball.
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  14. #73
    Senior Member alirainsbury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    These are not front-line roles, so don't have any impact on day-to-day Scouting.
    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Wow.

    I'm a DESC. I've been encouraging and helping a leader who wants their nights away. There's a camp this weekend, their assessment camp. If they weren't running it, there wouldn't be one.

    We've got a camp in a month's time, District Explorers and Network, I'm running it. If I wasn't running it, it probably wouldn't happen.

    I organise district wide explorer activities, with my explorer leaders.

    We had a YL training camp the other week, I hope the YLs learnt something to take back to their groups, to use in their day to day scouting.

    I encourage and support my explorer leaders. Would they still be so enthusiastic if they hadn't seen me for a year? Would they be more likely to think of jacking it in? Maybe, maybe not, a bit imponderable that one.

    Of course, if your district is a basket case, or interfering micromanagers, then maybe you wouldn't miss them if they weren't there. Luckily, not everyone is in that position.

    So, I'd contend that people not in front line roles *do* have an impact on front line scouting, maybe directly, maybe not, but to say they don't have any impact, well, I disagree.

    Ian
    Oh please, you know exactly what he means.

    If my DC, or ADC (Cubs) were sacked tomorrow then in the short term it would have no impact on local Scouting. Cubs would run as normal on Monday, our Gang Show would continue at the end of the month, and our "not quite" Easter camp would carry on regardless.

    Long term, we would start to notice - in the case of the ADC(Cubs) some of the district activities planned for over the summer might not occur. But then again, if he had been sacked for being incompetent (which was Chris's point) then those sort of things probably wouldn't have been in the pipeline anyway.

    Part of the problem with the management structures in Scouting (of which we do need at least some, but almost certainly not as many as we have) is that people often aren't held to account for their actions (unless there are other issues at play such as a falling out with someone) because they are "only volunteers". Incompetent people should be removed from their position - and redeployed to a more suitable role if there is one - rather than just being left to bumble along because "there's no one else".
    CSL 1st Marple Bradshaw Cubs

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  16. #74
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    It's not about the money, money, money
    We don't need your money, money, money
    We just wanna make the world scout,
    Forget about the checkout
    Ain't about the (uh) ch-ch-ching ch-ching
    Ain't about the (yeah) bl-bling-bl-bling
    Wanna make the world scout,
    Forget about the checkout

    (with apologies to Jessie J)
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

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  18. #75
    Senior Member alirainsbury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    I'm finding the hypocrisy on astounding recently!

    It seems that backing the "victim" and attacking the system is the only way forward in a thread!
    It's quite clear to those of us who know the rules that someone dropped the ball re financing the new group during the planning stages.

    However your initial post came across (although I'm sure it wasn't meant to be) as a personal attack on OP, rather than pointing out, as you and others have done later in the thread, that this issue is one that really should have been highlighted in the planning stages by the people who were advising/helping them set up the new group - ie the District team and the Regional Development team.
    CSL 1st Marple Bradshaw Cubs

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