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Thread: New Scout Group - Membership fees

  1. #76
    Senior Member Mallah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    But we're told that the Regional Development Team were involved with creating the new group - that's certainly one part of our organisation that is meant to be clued up. Along with DCs who should be making it their business to keep abreast with things.
    I agree, however we don't know to what extent the RDT was involved or at what stage. Their involvement may be nothing more than being advised a unit was starting up. It may also be the DCs business to keep up to date, however I also understand that it's not always the first thing that springs to mind with a Unit that is taking several months to come to fruition, plus is not unreasonable for a DC to think experienced leaders such as the OP would not be considering AMS as part of the annual commitment.

    You can't apportion blame here to one person or entity such as 'District'. All involved have taken their eye off the ball at some point. The reality here is the classic Everybody, Somebody, and Nobody routine. (Everybody thought Somebody was doing it. In the end Nobody did it!) It happens, and in the scheme of things isn't a life threatener. Bank the experience and move on.

    He who receives a good turn should never forget it; he who does one should never remember it.

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by alirainsbury View Post
    It's quite clear to those of us who know the rules that someone dropped the ball re financing the new group during the planning stages.

    However your initial post came across (although I'm sure it wasn't meant to be) as a personal attack on OP, rather than pointing out, as you and others have done later in the thread, that this issue is one that really should have been highlighted in the planning stages by the people who were advising/helping them set up the new group - ie the District team and the Regional Development team.
    I've re-read my post (#1) and again see no indication that an individual - especially the OP - was the focus of my comments.

    We were only advised of the involvement of the Regional Development team at a later stage of this thread hence my more focussed comments.

    That's the problem when a the OP post to the UKCC, or other thread, doesn't provide greater detail.
    Mark Pullen
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  4. #78
    Senior Member Mallah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Your DC, DEX and DESC should all resign for presiding over and being content with such a situation.
    Hmm, I wonder if that is why so few people volunteer for such positions in the first place?

    He who receives a good turn should never forget it; he who does one should never remember it.

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  6. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    I've never indicated that I was offering support whilst criticising the pre-launch planning .... no hypocrisy whatsoever.
    Not wishing to prolong the argument - but that is hypocrisy. You've criticised the level of support and the efforts made but - as you readily admit - offered nothing yourself. You're either missing the point or engaging in a spot of sophistry. (Reading back my comments here and their context - I'm leaning toward sophistry.)

    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    In addition - at no stage have I indicated that the lack of foresight by the planners is about POR itself.
    Whit? Of course it's about POR - they obviously haven't read it, who has? Its supposed to govern everything we do - they didn't examine it forensically and developed some problems - problems that could have been avoided if the rules in POR weren't so inflexible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Your DC, DEX and DESC should all resign for presiding over and being content with such a situation.
    Mmm, I salute your flexibility and humility.


  7. #80
    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Not wishing to prolong the argument.....
    But.....

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    ...but that is hypocrisy. You've criticised the level of support and the efforts made but - as you readily admit - offered nothing yourself. You're either missing the point or engaging in a spot of sophistry. (Reading back my comments here and their context - I'm leaning toward sophistry.)
    My point from the outset was that the OP was asking the UKCC to review a process that has left them (collective not individual) in a financial pickle - IMHO the situation wasn't the fault of POR.

    Not sure if my comments fall under the "fallacious and deceptive arguments" side of sophistry but I won't argue semantics with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Of course it's about POR - they obviously haven't read it, who has? Its supposed to govern everything we do - they didn't examine it forensically and developed some problems - problems that could have been avoided if the rules in POR weren't so inflexible.
    Whilst an intimate knowledge of POR escapes many people - myself included - you would like to hope that those supporting and advising local development of Scouting are equipped with the knowledge and experience to avoid such pitfalls.

    The failure to avoid the problems cannot be blamed on a lack of POR awareness but common sense.

    What financial outgoings are anticipated in advance, within the first 12 months of operation, longer term?

    If the planning didn't include knowledge and experience being applied to these financial questions, with consideration being made to the need for some wiggle room, then POR wasn't at fault - rigid or not.

    I will fully accept that this happened due to POR provided that those "supporting" were rookies to the UKSA and not involved in roles that are specifically created to know how the system works.
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
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    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  8. #81
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    Can we put this to bed now. I asked a simple question about a transition rule which was taken away in the year. There was planning but the cushion of the supplementary grant was taken away. The rules changes halfway through the game.

    Don't think for one minute it is out of control. It is regularly visited by the DC - We have a paid volunteer managing all the bits and pieces needed to get it running. Whilst there is no Exec at the moment, it is being managed by a nearby Group. It is under control. But we have been hit by a number of problems and we are coping. We are providing Scouting and the kids are safe.

    The money for the membership fee will be found - But please stop telling me that I need to "engage brain" , "can't plan". I am sure that in the many roles that the one person who reminds us of in each posting, he must have made at least one mistake and if so, then I hope he got some sympathetic support. I was not involved in the original project, people have left, we had support, we did plan - I am just trying to sort out this in addition to other challenges in trying to get the membership data correct ( and a lot of people "Planned" that) - we don't need any more salt rubbed into the wounds. I am beaten. I submit. Now please leave me alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  10. #82
    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    We learn from our experiences - nobody is infallible.

    I've learnt not to go public with my problems!
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
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    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
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    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  11. #83
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    All I said was 'That piece of Halibut was good enough for Jehovah'...
    Ian Wilkins
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  13. #84
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    I agree the removal of relief of first year's membership fees without a years transition period for those who had planned on receiving that support is not the best. I for one would be happy for HQ to have used membership money to put towards maintaining such a scheme anyway as we should all support the opening up new Groups and Sections IMHO.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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  15. #85
    ADC (Support) & DMM mediamanager's Avatar
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    It would be appropriate for the UKSA to carefully review all aspects of supporting new groups (and possibly sections) by forming a package - monetary and manpower - that encourages increasing of Scouting provision.

    With the support offered within the existing County and District structure being a mixed bag - from these pages we're often faced with examples where something that is reasonable being undeliverable due to local issues - it would be wise to offer something more stable.

    I'm not dismissing the support provided by the Regional Development teams - I've worked alongside them before and witnessed the benefits which can be gained - but creating new sections / groups could benefit from dedicate assistance.
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

  16. #86
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    It would be appropriate for the UKSA to carefully review all aspects of supporting new groups (and possibly sections) by forming a package - monetary and manpower - that encourages increasing of Scouting provision.

    With the support offered within the existing County and District structure being a mixed bag - from these pages we're often faced with examples where something that is reasonable being undeliverable due to local issues - it would be wise to offer something more stable.

    I'm not dismissing the support provided by the Regional Development teams - I've worked alongside them before and witnessed the benefits which can be gained - but creating new sections / groups could benefit from dedicate assistance.
    maybe somebody should bring it up with Wayne?

    but then they might be set upon for doing so

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  18. #87
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Wow.

    I'm a DESC. I've been encouraging and helping a leader who wants their nights away. There's a camp this weekend, their assessment camp. If they weren't running it, there wouldn't be one.

    We've got a camp in a month's time, District Explorers and Network, I'm running it. If I wasn't running it, it probably wouldn't happen.

    I organise district wide explorer activities, with my explorer leaders.

    We had a YL training camp the other week, I hope the YLs learnt something to take back to their groups, to use in their day to day scouting.

    I encourage and support my explorer leaders. Would they still be so enthusiastic if they hadn't seen me for a year? Would they be more likely to think of jacking it in? Maybe, maybe not, a bit imponderable that one.

    Of course, if your district is a basket case, or interfering micromanagers, then maybe you wouldn't miss them if they weren't there. Luckily, not everyone is in that position.

    So, I'd contend that people not in front line roles *do* have an impact on front line scouting, maybe directly, maybe not, but to say they don't have any impact, well, I disagree.

    Ian
    But, like I said, day-to-day scouting would go ahead regardless. And if you were incompetent, you wouldn't be doing any of those things anyway.
    Chris Hawes, District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District and Watford Scouts; Group Treasurer and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group.
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  19. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    But.....



    My point from the outset was that the OP was asking the UKCC to review a process that has left them (collective not individual) in a financial pickle - IMHO the situation wasn't the fault of POR.

    Not sure if my comments fall under the "fallacious and deceptive arguments" side of sophistry but I won't argue semantics with you.



    Whilst an intimate knowledge of POR escapes many people - myself included - you would like to hope that those supporting and advising local development of Scouting are equipped with the knowledge and experience to avoid such pitfalls.

    The failure to avoid the problems cannot be blamed on a lack of POR awareness but common sense.

    What financial outgoings are anticipated in advance, within the first 12 months of operation, longer term?

    If the planning didn't include knowledge and experience being applied to these financial questions, with consideration being made to the need for some wiggle room, then POR wasn't at fault - rigid or not.

    I will fully accept that this happened due to POR provided that those "supporting" were rookies to the UKSA and not involved in roles that are specifically created to know how the system works.
    In bold.

    Its just not helpful. Plans were made and things changed.

    And I still contend that the problem is with POR and not common sense. If you swap out the notion of common sense with the notion of reason - expecting a group to cough up an entire year's subs after only being open for three months I don't think is reasonable.

    Where I am, POR stands for Press On Regardless. Its as apt now as it ever was.


  20. #89
    No mountain too high PeterSheppard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    It's not about the money, money, money
    We don't need your money, money, money
    We just wanna make the world scout,
    Forget about the Compass
    Ain't about the (uh) ch-ch-ching ch-ching
    Ain't about the (yeah) bl-bling-bl-bling
    Wanna make the world scout,
    Forget about the Compass

    (with apologies to Jessie J)
    There, fixed a couple of words for you
    Assistant Area Commissioner (Activities) - Gwent

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  21. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    maybe somebody should bring it up with Wayne?

    but then they might be set upon for doing so
    Maybe somebody already did but just left out some key information?!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Its just not helpful. Plans were made and things changed.
    Things changed .... except the plans. And this was months before launch!
    Mark Pullen
    Bradford South District (ADC (Support) & DMM)
    Trustee - 7th SV Gomersal Scout Group

    Formerly:
    Cub SA - 3rd SV Scholes Scout Group
    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
    West Yorkshire Scout County (ACC Cubs, Agent 2:007, County Secretary, County MM, Gang Show Secretary, Gang Show Media)
    Keighley District (ADC Cubs, ADC Beavers, DMM, Trustee)
    8th Keighley Scout Group (ACSL, CSL, GSL, Group Chair)

    All posts made by myself are of a personal nature.

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