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Thread: New Scout Group - Membership fees

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediamanager View Post
    Things changed .... except the plans. And this was months before launch!
    I think you've been, and are being unfair.

    Would that we could all be so infallible, in this thread you've come across as being a good bit holier than thou - which is why some people (myself included) reacted they way we/they did.

    The guy/gel asked a question and you jumped all over it.

    Poor show.

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  3. #92
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    Like others I am a bit perplexed by the vehemence with which some people have set upon carpeni in this thread.

    However, his original question to Wayne makes no mention of the fact that until recently TSA did help new sections with their first year's AMS - and the the launch of the section was planned in the expectation that the old supplement grant would be available - which perhaps puts things in a different light.

  4. #93
    nele
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    We launched 3 sections over the last 18 months-- 2 before the changes in May and 1 after which meant all the leaders and plans were in place before May... but activities started after the summer holiday. We sent in exactly the same form as we had before and got the same acknowledgement. As far as I recall the website hadn't been updated at that point. (You can claim several months before you start meeting)

    The changes weren't widely publicised, I believe there was something about grants changing but I don't recall them saying they were removing the fee rebate. (Not very good news I guess) I was involved in helping get the new group off the ground and sorting out their exec etc around that time, and I applied for the grants, so I looked very closely at any such news.

    So our new sections was actually expecting a rebate as well as the grant (which hasn't increased, so I'm guessing there is a shortage of money), although its not affected them seriously.. as it might a new group in a less well off area or with less support.

    It would be nice when such a substantial change takes place that there was plenty of notice that this would happen.

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  6. #94
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    All I did was ask question of Wayne, as per the title "Open for Questions". I asked why the Scout Association insist on payment of a full years membership when a Group has only just started. The used to give dispensation. They no longer do. I never asked for the money. I could have written a essay on what we did but why should I ? I never said District or County wouldn't support it. To say we never planned properly is simply not true - how do they know? RDT were involved right from the start. Lots of assumptions made. We have contingencies. I simply asked a general question!
    Last edited by carpeni; 02-03-2016 at 07:31 PM.

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  8. #95
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    Please be assured that many/most of us think your question was perfectly reasonable.

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    I'm the DC of the neighbouring District. As has been said, we probably don't want to go into too much detail around the Group - but it's in an area of deprivation, and is the first Scout Group there for about 20 years. There have been a huge number of challenges in terms of identifying suitable accommodation and recruiting a set of volunteers from scratch. This, of course, was then compounded by Compass imploding.

    Some of the comments in this thread are, in my opinion, completely unworthy of anyone who professes to call themselves a Scout. A bunch of volunteers, with a limited amount of support from the RDS, have come together to make a meaningful difference to the lives of a lot of kids who haven't had a great deal of life chances up until now. That this has proven popular is great, and that popularity well also be part of this problem with Annual Membership Fees.

    Co-incident with this, we also set-up a new Group from scratch in my District. A very different area, where the Group was launched in a few months off of the back of digital engagement via Facebook. Again, a great opportunity for a lot of kids (it opened with two Beaver colonies, a Cub Pack and, two months later, a Scout Troop) - but, again, the requirement to pay for Hall Hire up front, flags, leader uniforms, badge collateral (unhelpfully changed so that there wasn't anything from any other Group that could be reused) has had a hit. As a District we've had to pay out a substantial amount of cash in support - and this is for a Group in a wealthy area. And there still isn't a large pot of Group cash to dip into for Annual Membership.

    Starting up a Group is HARD - and the Scout Association more widely should be doing everything it can to make it (slightly) less hard - rather than dogmatic demands for cash. This was the case until recently - and it should be the case again. Because in terms of timings, momentum is everything, and killing that momentum to avoid the census makes absolutely no sense. And we're now in the process of setting up another new Group, and the demands on our cash start again.
    Last edited by baynesa; 03-03-2016 at 12:19 AM. Reason: No forum support for en dashes.
    Andrew Baynes
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  12. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by baynesa View Post

    Starting up a Group is HARD - and the Scout Association more widely should be doing everything it can to make it (slightly) less hard - rather than dogmatic demands for cash. This was the case until recently - and it should be the case again. Because in terms of timings, momentum is everything, and killing that momentum to avoid the census makes absolutely no sense. And we're now in the process of setting up another new Group, and the demands on our cash start again.
    Nobody said it was easy. Or cheap. Simply that when setting up a new group, you should know what costs you will incur and when they will be payable, and have arrangements to be able to meet them.
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  14. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by baynesa View Post

    Starting up a Group is HARD - and the Scout Association more widely should be doing everything it can to make it (slightly) less hard - rather than dogmatic demands for cash. This was the case until recently - and it should be the case again. Because in terms of timings, momentum is everything, and killing that momentum to avoid the census makes absolutely no sense. And we're now in the process of setting up another new Group, and the demands on our cash start again.
    I agree with every word- it takes a lot of time and effort and cash to start up a new group. We actually belong to 2 scout associations- UK and Belgian and therefore pay 2 sets of HQ fees. (€68 per head in total for both including district and area for TSA) When a new group forms in the Belgian association (which only has a total of 8.000 members, so much smaller than TSA) they get a rebate from the first years fees.

    Nobody said it was easy. Or cheap. Simply that when setting up a new group, you should know what costs you will incur and when they will be payable, and have arrangements to be able to meet them.
    I'm sorry but you seem to have missed the point- we like others starting new groups and sections go through a process including budgeting. It took around a year of planning/surveys/finding leaders and venues and finances to get our first section of the ground. Less time for the others because we were already busy looking and launching as we got the leaders.
    Budget was addressed during that whole period. I am sure that most people do the same. It appears that the OP has managed to address the additional expenses for the new group- despite the unexpected additional costs, just as we have..

    BUT here we have TSA changing the rules at what was short notice in the grand scheme of things and in a way detrimental to forming new groups/sections, especially in areas where finances are inevitably harder to raise. At a moment when we are all being encouraged to expand scouting.
    So it is quite right to ask why scout association are changing the rules and adding an extra hurdle for new groups instead of adopting financial measures to aid them. And to ask about what additional measures might be considered to help growth.
    Last edited by nele; 03-03-2016 at 09:07 AM. Reason: additional comment

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  16. #99
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    I've not seen posts from somebody that could be seen as "unworthy" to "professes to call themselves a Scout".

    The OP elected to use a public forum, known for containing individuals who have a wealth of experiences and opinions, and as such responses were received.

    Throughout this thread we have seen a slow trickle of additional information which provide a further insight into the situation.

    I can't see any specific response that accuse carpeni of failing personally and yet it seems others have determined that this was the case.

    There is an agreement that the process of supporting the opening of a new group / section isn't perfect within the UKSA. It's also recognised that communication of the retirement of the financial support package was flawed - it is reasonable to expect the RDS and DCs to be aware of such changes and to then ensure that any launches that are still in the planning stages are protected or supported further.

    continues to provide a wide variety of Scouting experiences and opinions - anybody who posts needs to understand that the responses might not meet their expectations.

    We still await the response from Wayne.....
    Mark Pullen
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  18. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by nele View Post

    I'm sorry but you seem to have missed the point- we like others starting new groups and sections go through a process including budgeting. It took around a year of planning/surveys/finding leaders and venues and finances to get our first section of the ground. Less time for the others because we were already busy looking and launching as we got the leaders.
    Budget was addressed during that whole period. I am sure that most people do the same. It appears that the OP has managed to address the additional expenses for the new group- despite the unexpected additional costs, just as we have..

    BUT here we have TSA changing the rules at what was short notice in the grand scheme of things and in a way detrimental to forming new groups/sections, especially in areas where finances are inevitably harder to raise. At a moment when we are all being encouraged to expand scouting.
    So it is quite right to ask why scout association are changing the rules and adding an extra hurdle for new groups instead of adopting financial measures to aid them. And to ask about what additional measures might be considered to help growth.
    I'm sorry, but you have clearly missed all points raised and made.

    The OP made no such reference to the withdrawal of financial support for new groups in their post, which one would reasonably expect to be a key part of such a question to the UKCC if such support had been expected and planned for and then withdrawn before it could be accessed. And although one could reasonably expect such support, when Regional Development and DCs are involved (as they should be in a new group) this should have been known about once it did happen and a solution identified - be that a District grant or bridging loan or other fundraising; all prior to receiving a bill.

    The point being made is simple, basic, common sense: plan in advance and, if things change that are out of your control, be ready to adjust the plan based on the new scenario. The apparent feature of this situation is that there was a plan, but the plan was reviewed when things changed.
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    Jaysus on his bicyclette! If carpeni could charge replies by the word, or use the hot air generated to power a generator feeding into the grid, he'd have no problem paying his AMS!
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  22. #102
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    Chris - I most sincerely apologise to you if you think I didn't give enough details in my question. All I did was ask question of Wayne, as per the forum title "Open for Questions". I asked why the Scout Association insist on payment of a full years membership when a Group has only just started.

    Last edited by carpeni; 03-03-2016 at 10:28 AM. Reason: giving up!!

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  24. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpeni View Post
    Chris - I most sincerely apologise to you if you think I didn't give enough details in my question. All I did was ask question of Wayne, as per the forum title "Open for Questions". I asked why the Scout Association insist on payment of a full years membership when a Group has only just started.
    I don't think that anybody is dismissing the question you are asking from Wayne, and I hope that any emails sent to the Info Centre or UKCC provide the answers which you seek.

    Certainly the circumstances aren't unique to your group and it would be interesting to the reasons for the UKSA withdrawing the funding. I am aware of a number of sections that started and never claimed the startup grant for various reasons - including a lack of knowledge about it being available.

    Please understand that my posts have never intended to point the finger of blame on yourself or other individuals but I have questioned why the process let you down by not flagging up the changes and subsequently the additional pressure it would cause locally.

    I genuinely wish you and the group well for the future.
    Mark Pullen
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    Formerly:
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    Hove Edge Scout Group (GSL, Trustee)
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