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Thread: Re: Ratios Guidance

  1. #16
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    But Ian, the cavaliers will always do as they please regardless of the rules. You can make life as miserable as you like for the "good guys" the cavaliers will press on regardless.
    Aye, but when you catch them doing something daft like only going camping with one adult* you can then say "look at the rules, you're doing something daft, change or go" rather than it being one persons opinion against another.

    * How times change. When I was 12 or so, I went to the Shetlands with a wildlife group. About 10 kids, and one adult. Overnight train from Reading to Aberdeen, ferry to Shetland, no idea how we got to our croft, local minibus driver I guess, and then two weeks in this croft. Christ, we even had a boat that we went rowing in the sea. One adult, I'm sure of it. Madness.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Neil Williams (01-04-2016)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    But Ian, the cavaliers will always do as they please regardless of the rules. You can make life as miserable as you like for the "good guys" the cavaliers will press on regardless.
    There is also an assumption that while appointing people in to the roles that are supposed to deter/control those cavalier individuals - that those self same people won't be cavalier themselves... More often than not, they're shunted in because its so difficult to get people to do it.

    A good NAA is worth their weight in gold, a not-so-good one will end up doing more harm than good.

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    Neil Williams (01-04-2016)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Aye, but when you catch them doing something daft like only going camping with one adult* you can then say "look at the rules, you're doing something daft, change or go" rather than it being one persons opinion against another.

    * How times change. When I was 12 or so, I went to the Shetlands with a wildlife group. About 10 kids, and one adult. Overnight train from Reading to Aberdeen, ferry to Shetland, no idea how we got to our croft, local minibus driver I guess, and then two weeks in this croft. Christ, we even had a boat that we went rowing in the sea. One adult, I'm sure of it. Madness.
    I'm sure that when we did our first trip to the school cottage about the same age we only had one actual teacher with us for the weekend - had a couple of 6th formers along as well who may have been over 18. Heaven knows how you'd risk assess that now to allow it! We were in the middle of no-where with one minibus (and only one driver) and spending the day times out on the hills. By the time we went in the 6th form we had two teachers with us - although that may have had more to do with the fact that we had two teachers on the A-level course or that we had at least one female (most of the school was single sex but the 6th form was co-ed).
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    One adult, I'm sure of it. Madness.
    But it was the kids who survived who made this nation great!
    John Russell
    ex-CSL now ACSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon
    Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Aye, but when you catch them doing something daft like only going camping with one adult* you can then say "look at the rules, you're doing something daft, change or go" rather than it being one persons opinion against another.

    * How times change. When I was 12 or so, I went to the Shetlands with a wildlife group. About 10 kids, and one adult. Overnight train from Reading to Aberdeen, ferry to Shetland, no idea how we got to our croft, local minibus driver I guess, and then two weeks in this croft. Christ, we even had a boat that we went rowing in the sea. One adult, I'm sure of it. Madness.
    Funny , my first kayak experience was when I was about nine. We were on holiday at Gairloch in Wester Ross. We, three of us, the oldest a gnarly 10 year old, got into home made wood and canvas kayaks and paddled out to Longa Island on our own. A sea trip of 800 metres out, so a round trip of 1600 metres. In the fine print for a L2 Kayak Coach there is a specification for the maximum distance they should take paddlers from a base on sheltered waters... 750 metres... How on earth did we survive?
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Funny , my first kayak experience was when I was about nine. We were on holiday at Gairloch in Wester Ross. We, three of us, the oldest a gnarly 10 year old, got into home made wood and canvas kayaks and paddled out to Longa Island on our own. A sea trip of 800 metres out, so a round trip of 1600 metres. In the fine print for a L2 Kayak Coach there is a specification for the maximum distance they should take paddlers from a base on sheltered waters... 750 metres... How on earth did we survive?
    Quite.

    I do find it interesting that it's my generation, the last generation to enjoy freedoms like those (not that I quite went that far), that seems to be doing its utmost to remove those freedoms from its children.

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    dasy2k1 (02-04-2016)

  11. #22
    Sea Scout Leader richardnhunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Aye, but when you catch them doing something daft like only going camping with one adult* you can then say "look at the rules, you're doing something daft, change or go" rather than it being one persons opinion against another.
    Which is why we should have a smaller number of key rules to stop real stupidity and then recommendations and good training - rather than a massive run book designed to catch the unwary out at times.

    Rich

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    Neil Williams (01-04-2016)

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    let me be clear: i am not against the proposed rule changes on ratios simply because we don't have enough adults/leaders to accommodate them. i am against them because there's no evidence of the need for them to change! (if there is evidence, where is it?) furthermore, the nature of supervision in scouting (over different ages and different activities and different situations) is relatively complex and really must be fitted to what a risk assessment demands. in general, as no two risk assessments are ever identical, it is impractical to try and write something specific such as a fixed, pre-determined supervision ratio into them.

    a good risk assessment approach is the right way to go on this issue and that means having rules that give guidance and recommendations rather than ones which straight-jacket leaders.

    but what about those who abuse the rules and don't assess? well having more rules is unlikely to change them! we need to address those who abuse rules, ask why do they do it, but most importantly we need to improve our training and make sure our rule book is clear.

    our training on risk assessment is poor. our rule book is not clear.

    we also need to better manage 'responsibility'. ultimately mr bulpitt is my boss and is responsible for me and what i do with my mop and bucket. fact. however, he devolves and discharges that responsibility through others in many different ways. he retains the responsibility to come and check over my mop and bucket if needs to do so, however, i think for all practical purposes he's more than happy to devolve that responsibility to me.

    that is a sensible approach.

    what is not sensible is a DC not devolving responsibility likewise where and when appropriate. the vast majority of activities in a group are the responsibility of the section leaders, assistants and GSL and can be easily managed by them. the 9.1b rule insisting on the DC giving approval for all scouting activities is nonsense. i'll say the problem word here is 'approval' not responsibility.

    i agree with the view that the DC has responsibility for all scouting matters in a district but that responsibility is devolved, discharged, and delegated in many instances through others when and where appropriate. in fact in many instances there is/should be automatic devolution of responsibility. responsibility needs to be managed! reading here it seems there are some DCs who don't seem capable of doing this.

    as for the rule book: it needs an overhaul; it's language and style need to be 'softer' and not legalese; it needs a lot of stuff which is not rules or policy taking out; it needs to be able to 'guide' people to the right place; &c.

    and it needs to say that i am in control of my mop and bucket not the DC!



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  14. #24
    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    When I run a Module A for the YLs we cover safeguarding (not the reporting issues bit), purpose of Scouting and risk assessment in an evening. The risk assessment includes going around a Scout Hut looking for hazards and how one would mitigate them for a particular game or activity, plus going out to an unfamiliar field (normally in the dark) to talk about how you would assess the risks for a wide game or ball game.
    Most YLs do that in the first three months and they probably get more practical help in the safeguarding and risk areas than most new leaders do in their first year!
    I could easily add half an hour to a Module A to cover the reporting bit of Safeguarding and the continuous review of risks that leaders should be doing.
    I would add that I think the YL training scheme probably teaches YLs more in terms of practical skills to be a leader than the module system does where most of it is online or validation of other experiences. The YL modules probably match the old L1 quite well - how to pass on knowledge, programme planning, running games, discipline, special people and basic leadership skills.
    Last edited by wealdbrook; 02-04-2016 at 10:10 AM.
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    Re YL at our district fun day five bases fully manned by YLs without any other adults near by

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