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Thread: Daily Wail Article

  1. #16
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    This was the topic on "Call kaye's" phone in show on BBC RScotland this morning. Putting the radio show in some context is important though - essentially its a platform for quite a lot of vested interests (BBC Scotland news & current affairs is not particularly trusted up here.) Normally its the same people calling in and because its aired whilst most folk are at work, they tend to get a fair percentage of characters aboard. That said, there are a number of reasonable voices that do appear (usually though, the editorial team thin them out...)

    In any case, this story has been getting some traction in Scotland. Reading the comments above, its basis does rather seem to be not entirely honest - with this ropy sounding think tank perhaps having its own agenda. A lot of people calling in with anecdotal evedince of how Scout Leaders (blanket term) had been drummed out of their homes/marriages/jobs for no reason blah blah blah. There was also a lot of people bemoaning the red tape involved. Filling out a PVG while not onerous, does send a message - and there are parts of the process that don't make sense.

    Broadly speaking, I agree with Mang21 up above - its not just the DBS checks, its a slow death by a million cuts. Its just one thing after another, even the badge progression scheme is overly complicated (they change it every couple of years) and, well, we've covered the training.

    I think anything that highlights the leader shortage in the media will be jumped on by HQ because there most assuredly is a leader shortage.

    PB
    (ASL - soon-to-be SL, ESL, AGSL and Chairperson )

  2. #17
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Broadly speaking, I agree with Mang21 up above - its not just the DBS checks, its a slow death by a million cuts. Its just one thing after another, even the badge progression scheme is overly complicated (they change it every couple of years) and, well, we've covered the training.
    (ASL - soon-to-be SL, ESL, AGSL and Chairperson )
    Not happy? Follow me boys!

    No, seriously, if it is getting as bad as you say it is. There are alternatives. You can almost pick your decade for the Uniform, and then do your own thing... Just the little issue of all the kit you have to leave behind ( Which the average DC would rather see rot than be sold to a competitor).
    Ewan Scott

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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Not happy? Follow me boys!

    No, seriously, if it is getting as bad as you say it is. There are alternatives. You can almost pick your decade for the Uniform, and then do your own thing... Just the little issue of all the kit you have to leave behind ( Which the average DC would rather see rot than be sold to a competitor).
    Don't tell anyone, but we use our initiative when it comes to the more vexatious bits of scouting bureaucracy. To be honest, I'd quite like to leave all the flag waving/saluting/monarchic idolatry behind, but like you say, we've built up a fair head of steam and not everyone is as outre as I am in this area. Like I said though, we're flexible and allowed to be by our district who have a decent hands-off approach. (Although I rather suspect this is more to do with not having enough hands to put on... If you see what I mean... Even if they did, we'd nod and agree, then carry on as we were.)


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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Don't tell anyone, but we use our initiative when it comes to the more vexatious bits of scouting bureaucracy. To be honest, I'd quite like to leave all the flag waving/saluting/monarchic idolatry behind, but like you say, we've built up a fair head of steam and not everyone is as outre as I am in this area. Like I said though, we're flexible and allowed to be by our district who have a decent hands-off approach. (Although I rather suspect this is more to do with not having enough hands to put on... If you see what I mean... Even if they did, we'd nod and agree, then carry on as we were.)

    That, marks my words, may well come to a sudden and unexpected end.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    That, marks my words, may well come to a sudden and unexpected end.
    Anything could happen, but in our district, the groups have always had more power than the district structure, by which I mean, the groups set the tone and district support us. Obviously there is cooperation and pragmatism between us all - our district team are as aware of the pressures as we are. We're not sidelining any of the rules that have a direct bearing on safety or safeguarding, we're also pretty much autonomous in most regards, short of people from district coming down and chaining themselves to our hall's front door - I'm not sure what they could do.

    One of the advantages of having parents that have high expectations is the furore they would create if anyone was to threaten something they felt their kids were entitled to do. Power and control flows in subtle yet strong ways, with us it's always been with groups, sounds like yours was the other way round - for us, its just the way its turned out. District and groups have always had a mutually pragmatic relationship - a DC etc who came in and tried to change that would have an interesting time of it, it would be such a massive change in tone - I don't think they'd get very far.

    That said, if by some unfortunate sequence of events, they did manage it and all the groups closed (for it would need to be all of them - bar maybe one) then I'd be able to go on an ordinary holiday for a change.


  8. #22
    Senior Member CambridgeSkip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Anything could happen, but in our district, the groups have always had more power than the district structure, by which I mean, the groups set the tone and district support us. Obviously there is cooperation and pragmatism between us all - our district team are as aware of the pressures as we are. We're not sidelining any of the rules that have a direct bearing on safety or safeguarding, we're also pretty much autonomous in most regards, short of people from district coming down and chaining themselves to our hall's front door - I'm not sure what they could do.

    One of the advantages of having parents that have high expectations is the furore they would create if anyone was to threaten something they felt their kids were entitled to do. Power and control flows in subtle yet strong ways, with us it's always been with groups, sounds like yours was the other way round - for us, its just the way its turned out. District and groups have always had a mutually pragmatic relationship - a DC etc who came in and tried to change that would have an interesting time of it, it would be such a massive change in tone - I don't think they'd get very far.

    That said, if by some unfortunate sequence of events, they did manage it and all the groups closed (for it would need to be all of them - bar maybe one) then I'd be able to go on an ordinary holiday for a change.

    Sounds like your district is not unlike mine. Groups are broadly left to get on with things and run in whichever way they see fit. To be honest I think it's too hands off and groups that need support are not always getting what they need but like with you I think it's more a case of not enough bodies at district level than anything. We do have some very good people round here but they are spread far too thinly. There's an alternative view that we are left alone because we have a number of very strong groups in the district that can exist and thrive quite happily without any interaction with district or county so slip under the radar but it's not one I personally subscribe to.

    The one time we did have problems round here was at County level under a previous CC. That left me with the impression that the problem with national HQ is not that they are too hands on but again too hands off. An early intervention in what was clearly an unfolding disaster could have saved a whole world of pain for a lot of people.

  9. #23
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    Mmm...

    I think its a difficult balance to achieve. As you say, they're often as strapped for people as we are so have to muddle on as we do.

    Our district team are really quite good, if you ask - even although they're often shorthanded - they will do their best. We've had district level events that have been well attended (we've also had some that were cancelled right enough...) Its tough though, our SL is also the ADC Scouts (I know...) He tells us he tries to organise district wide activities for Scouts but often gets no responses at all. I know within my own Explorer Unit, competition is fierce - our DESC is in the same boat, to the extent we haven't seen him for over a year.

    I would say; power, sovereignty or what ever you want to call it should sit with groups and the district structure. I know there are rules and policies, but in a voluntary organisation (beyond common sense safe guarding stuff) I don't believe they can be imposed, they have to be accepted.

    Or something like that anyway...

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
    Sorry missed this post amongst all the sparks from the axes been ground.

    Yes I have seen the response, my position is like any other minority we will only get accurate cover from the media if we are prepared to stand up for ourselves.

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  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    Sorry missed this post amongst all the sparks from the axes been ground.

    Yes I have seen the response, my position is like any other minority we will only get accurate cover from the media if we are prepared to stand up for ourselves.
    A true story for you...

    As some of you are aware my footballing love is the mighty Barnet FC. A small club that only gets occasional coverage from the nationals or even major regionals but nevertheless a big enough club to atleast occasionally feature on their radar.

    Back in the late 90s or early 2000s, I forget exactly when, the London Evening Standard, as it then was, used to do a small write up on a Friday at what was happening at each of the smaller London clubs, the likes of Barnet and Leyton Orient etc, and a preview of saturday's game. For those who new what they were looking at, ie fans such as myself, it became apparent that in the case of Barnet, and it could have been other smaller clubs as well, The standard weren't doing any proper journalism. No contacting the club or picking up the phone or speaking to the manager. Instead they were ploughing though the fans online forums and copying and pasting anything that looked like it might fill out the 200 words they needed to produce. It became increasingly blatant. So some fans hatched a plan off line.....

    One Thursday evening a thread started about an exciting young talent that the club were due to sign and would make his debut on Saturday. A number of other clubs had been after him but he had signed for Barnet. This entirely fictional player was given the same name as the then editor of the fanzine! A 45 year old man of minimal hair and considerable girth. The moderators kept a sharp eye on the thread instantly deleting any responses from those out the loop that were letting the cat out the bag. And sure enough on Friday evening The Standard printed the story word for word as the original post. Now of course very few people realised as out of the Standard's readership only a tiny minority got the joke. The standard picked up on what they had done though and the copying and pasting stopped.....

    Just a story. It's true though!

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  14. #26
    nele
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    I don't think doing DBS is putting off leaders starting. Evene here were there are about 12 pages of paper and a local check to do too.. and it takes months to return. And then they send stuff back because there is a small mistake on the form OR because the person who opens it is following different rules to what we've been assured are correct..
    It doesn't help when Compass is rubbish and people aren't put into the correct places, their roles are changed and become pre provisional when they were full before etc etc

    I as the one who has to process everyone (because noone else is prepared to do it) feel like resigning, or at least screaming.. We've had to tell adults they can't camp with us because we don't have time before we go to get them cleared... and they only volunteered recently.

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    Top Research into Treating Hysteria in Scout Leaders.....

    Over a period of nearly a hundred years, our on going research, has found that sending Troops of Scouts to

    Gilwell and other related locations with their leaders, has in many cases been able to remove these unwelcome feelings of home sickness, bed wetting, and other Psychobiological manifestations of concern found within the spectrum of Leadership Profiles.

    Thank Goodness The Press were able to point out these concerns, we hope, before it's to late......

    Dr.Stu..

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