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Thread: Scouting and Gender Politics

  1. #1
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    Scouting and Gender Politics

    There has recently been some fierce exchanges between feminists arguing that gender behaviour is learnt (nurture) and Transgender advocates arguing that it is possible to have naturally set gender minds sometimes in the wrong body (nature).

    Are there such things as naturally male and female identities or are they as some feminists maintain only an result of the way males and females are raised ?

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Ann Limb uses a term about herself that i detest, she says that she was a tomboy as a child. As if climbing trees and lighting fires is somehow not the actions of a normal girl.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    You'd have to ask a scientist, and I think a lot of the experts in the field struggle with what's nurture and what's nature. In my opinion, evolution and natural selection in a relatively weak but intelligent species means nurturing your offspring into adulthood. That's what mammals do mostly isn't it?
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    My guess is both.

    The question is an academic one, unless you have an agenda to push.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    There has recently been some fierce exchanges between feminists arguing that gender behaviour is learnt (nurture) and Transgender advocates arguing that it is possible to have naturally set gender minds sometimes in the wrong body (nature).

    Are there such things as naturally male and female identities or are they as some feminists maintain only an result of the way males and females are raised ?
    Does it even matter? Let people be what they want to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    Are there such things as naturally male and female identities or are they as some feminists maintain only an result of the way males and females are raised ?
    Yes.


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    TBH I think in some cases feminism is heading towards anti-masculinism. We should address any further genuine discrimination that exists (there is still some) to put both on a genuinely equal footing (other than obvious physical differences) but going further is as bad as misogyny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    TBH I think in some cases feminism is heading towards anti-masculinism. We should address any further genuine discrimination that exists (there is still some) to put both on a genuinely equal footing (other than obvious physical differences) but going further is as bad as misogyny.
    Yes, equality has to incorporate 'equal' - accepting both the advantages and the disadvantages, both the rights and the responsibilities. But it means all parties doing so - spotting and rectifying areas where discrimination is at risk of occurring. And it requires a lot of attitude and assumption change from all parties, which is not easy to achieve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenris View Post
    Yes, equality has to incorporate 'equal' - accepting both the advantages and the disadvantages, both the rights and the responsibilities. But it means all parties doing so - spotting and rectifying areas where discrimination is at risk of occurring. And it requires a lot of attitude and assumption change from all parties, which is not easy to achieve.
    True. I do however get sick of the "every man is a rapist and paedophile" nonsense some more extreme feminists come out with. It's complete garbage, it's offensive, and it really harms their case.

    An example is the occasional case you get of a female teacher taken in by a teenage pupil - that way round it seems often to be blamed on the lad when, like if it were the other way round, it is the adult's fault for allowing it to happen, and the adult who should be in trouble whether male or female.

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    ' Scouting for Everyone '

    At a time when we now have lists for who can speak at any particular University, just in case they upset the not so bright students in the audience.

    Tony lets hope that you don't put too many ideas into certain Gilwell movers and shakers heads with your post....

    The trick seems to be to allow people to be whosoever they wish to be.....

    Come along to Gilwell 24 in July and see how Scouts kick gender politics ' right out of the water '

    Just the best of adolescent behaviour.

    Dr.Stu..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Stu.. View Post
    At a time when we now have lists for who can speak at any particular University, just in case they upset the not so bright students in the audience.
    That one really grinds my proverbial gears. Are students really so weak in their ability to argue these days that they wish to prevent people speaking for fear of offence, rather than letting anyone speak and then educatedly rubbishing their argument?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    That one really grinds my proverbial gears. Are students really so weak in their ability to argue these days that they wish to prevent people speaking for fear of offence, rather than letting anyone speak and then educatedly rubbishing their argument?
    Interestingly (or not...)

    I wonder if this ties in with what we've been talking about in other threads; by not allowing kids to experience a degree of risk while growing up (like walking home or what ever) are we making them overly risk averse later in life? By which I mean, are we raising a generation of people who are so easily offended because they weren't allowed to develop sense of perspective around challenging circumstances? There are those who don't even want to risk being offended...

    Is not wanting to have one's delicate sensibilities challenged so far away from not wanting the challenge of managing risks? Is avoidance in every instance now the way forward?

    No platforming is just craven avoidance.

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    recent studies have shown that i have to apply the same amount of detergent, disinfectant, and elbow grease to traps 1 and 2 as to traps 3 and 4; the former being for girls use and the latter boys use.

    i should also add the same is done to the disabled toilet.

    as regards supplies, both girls and boys get the same soap and towels. the girls get an extra little bin.

    we do not charge.

    TM
    going...going...still here...just

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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    recent studies have shown that i have to apply the same amount of detergent, disinfectant, and elbow grease to traps 1 and 2 as to traps 3 and 4; the former being for girls use and the latter boys use.

    i should also add the same is done to the disabled toilet.

    as regards supplies, both girls and boys get the same soap and towels. the girls get an extra little bin.

    we do not charge.

    TM
    Well hold on one cotton pickin' minute...

    I happen to clean the bogs in our hall (we have a cleaner but... Well, the kids...) The ladies go through a lot more bog roll than do the gents (even when one adjusts for the differing amenities) and the gents urinals and their environs require a lot more detergent than do the female WC's.

    I suppose it does balance out though...

    We don't have to worry who goes where though, the signs fell off the doors a long time ago...

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    ' Escouts full of good ideas...

    We [that's with some non PC Scouters ] did produce an interesting ' Scout Song Book ' ,containing about 20 Scout songs that could no longer be sung as they might offend persons known or unknown....

    The point made by others about Cubs/Scouts etc walking home alone, I would agree is all part of the Scouting experience, of learning to cope within our Society.

    We rob young people of the experience of building up strategies of awareness and decision.

    The term resilience once used was always part of the Scouting philosophy although it was expressed as being able to ' whistle and smile ' I think this does express an ability to bounce back which is so important to our mental health.

    Dr.Stu..

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