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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Youth Led...

    I try to let our Navigators lead the programme. I really do.

    In September, we sat and worked out a programme, if I am honest, I managed the meeting to arrive at achievable outcomes. I'm not up for suggestions such as throwing Jimmy off the roof and see how many bones he can break when he lands ...

    We actually achieved most of the activities we set out to do. So all good.

    Last night, we had a bit of a poor programme, so I sat with the Navs and a whiteboard and asked them for their suggestions... sagebrush... not a single idea apart from Dodgeball...They were happy doing what they do - which gets repetitive after a while.

    However, I realised that they could not suggest activities if they didn't know about them. I mean, you only know what you know, right?

    So, there followed a painful session trying to get ideas and getting their approval for ideas that I threw in that I thought they might like. I did get pissed at one lad who was negative about everything we suggested ( There's the door, pal.) The concept of a youth-led programme would appear to be pie in the sky, here.

    So, I sat down today and worked out a list of activities they could be doing this coming term. Led for Youth is the way ahead. Is what I think.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    So, I sat down today and worked out a list of activities they could be doing this coming term. Led for Youth is the way ahead. Is what I think.
    You want them to do something you'll enjoy doing with them, so you'll stay enthused and carry on? Doesn't sound like a terrible approach!

    And TSA are majoring on resilience at the moment, and trying things you wouldn't normally do builds resilience apparently, so doing things your charges haven't thought of...that's good right?
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    I try to come up with new programme ideas (and/or things we haven't done for a while) and throw these into the mix with an explanation when we are planning the programme with the Explorers. However I do tend to reserve at least one evening a term to do an activity that I just think we need to do (to balance the programme or to cover off some training that we need like route planning say) or that seems like a good idea.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    When I was 15 our Scout Leader took us to a Jamboree in Norfolk. When we arrived I was horrified. All my other Summer camps had been "green field" camping miles from anywhere and here we were in a sort of village of tents.

    There were some Scouts from Africa next to us and we had to make them drinks and lend them blankets on the first night as they were so cold. We used to build a fire between out sites and chat around it in the evenings and teach each other songs. As the camp continued I began to enjoy it and realised that this sort of camping was OK. It's about 50 years ago but I remember it as one of the best times of my five years in the Troop.

    My Leader was wise enough to know that it would be a good camp. If I had been asked what I wanted I would have said lets have a camp in a remote location again.

    As an ex Venture Scout Leader I am not against youth lead Scouting but I feel that there are times when young people will not know the advantages of something that they have not yet experienced.

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    Senior Member Shaun's Avatar
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    A few years ago, we spent the post Christmas term working g on the Survival Skills badge.
    I arranged with a local farmer for us to use his wood for the 24 hour exercise.
    Stream for water, plenty of wood etc.
    Plan was to go on the Friday night, practical sessions for all the skills we hadn’t been able to do in the hit and of course how to build the shelters.

    We sent the forms out, no response, asked them all about it, blank faces.

    So the Friday that we were supposed to be going away, we sat them down and did a programme session.
    What do you want to do?
    Camp, build fires and build shelters and sleep in them.
    You mean the things you were going to be doing this weekend if you had done the survival camp????


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    Shaun

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    Hanging Heaton Scout Group

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    Senior Member bernwood's Avatar
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    Why not put out a lot of activities and let them vote on the ones they want to do. This way is still youth lead, it might even give them some ideas of their own - but all the activities are achievable and have enough variety to give a program that should keep them all happy. leaving it solely to the YP, you will end up with let's play dodge ball and go down the chippy - But if you inject the core ideas, then they will come up with some of their own.

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    One forum we were voting on activities the Scouts has done. It was a clear no to knots but a clear yes to pioneering.


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    I've been "out of the fold" for a while now - but i thought within TSA the idea was "Youth Shaped", not "Youth Led".

    To me - Youth Led is the kids completely designing a programme by themselves and adults supporting the delivery of it. It may be practical if you have a particularly proactive group of explorers, but otherwise is probably doomed to failure these days. Back in the day ventures would have been "youth led", and Scouts would have to an extent been "Youth Led" by the patrol leaders council. But not any more.

    Youth Shaped is adults creating a programme but involving the kids in the development of that programme - for example it could be the adults come up with 20 activities and the kids chose the 10 most popular ones to go on the programme.

    Part of the problem lies outside Scouting. Everything else kids are involved in these days is so proscribed. Their diaries are controlled by their parents, even at teen-age. If you asked my 14 year old nephew "what are you doing this weekend" he would refer you to his mum to find out. He doesnt know. He doesnt care. He, like most other teenagers, is a mere passenger in his life. He goes where he is told, does what he is told, and if he doesnt he is told off.

    Another classic example - we used to tell the Scouts each week what they were doing next week. Each parent was sent a programme (i doubt many bothered printing it off and sticking it on the fridge for their child to see - so we also had one displayed on the notice board at the hall). Each week Scouts would arrive and ask "what are we doing?". None of htem would have looked at the programme their parents had, none of them would go and look on the notice board.

    BP's model of Scouting existed in a different time. A time where kids were resourceful, but more importantly a time where kids were free. Free to meet up with their mates, hike to the woods, light a fire, maybe catch a couple of fish. Their parents saw them out the door in the morning and (apart from maybe a quick lunch stop) didnt expect to see them again until evening.

    By protecting children, and swaddling them in cotton wool and hazard tape, we have removed their resourcefulness. Its naive to think we can bring that back with #youshape

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I think that there are a number of reasons for the lower level of youth lead scouting.

    1/ The older Scputs with the experience have been lost to Explorers so there is a lowering of maturity in the remaining PLS - although since in Navs we run right through till they leave (anout 16 -17) that doesn't work.
    2/ There is an increase in the done that, got the Tee shirt mentality - so Smithy went kayaking once and he is now an expert and is looking for the next thrill.
    3/ They do a lot of what we do at school.
    4/ Parents manage kids time and often we go to offer something different and there are half a dozen pipe up that they have done that with the family.
    5/ We are competing with many other activities - many of whom have a potential financial reward if the participants are skilled enough - any sports, dance, thatre etc..
    6/ We are compting with instant gratification where kids play online games and get an instant thrill - I don't get it, I find the repetitive playing of levels to gain access to the next a rather dull affair after the third try.
    7/ They also don't know what they don't know.

    Not unrelated to this, we ran/ run a five minute activity at the end of meetings, where one person puts forward a piece of music that they like, we listen to it/ watch the video and then they explain why they like it. Out of 20 Navigators, only one went for something contemporary, everyne else went for music from the 70s or 80s - ie, music their parents play. around 50% of them never listen to music at all. This is the age range where we listened avidly to the top ten every week... At 16/16 some of us were walking around with the latest albums - Moody Blues/ ELP/ Family/ The Who/ we debated the musical talents of Marc Bolan and Noddy Holder - and laughed at anyone who liked the Sweet. We listened to Bob Dylan and Simon and Garfunkel, Poco ( still on my playlist), the Eagles... Most of the Navs could not name a comtemporay band.

    Our life experiences are hugely different from the kids we now work with.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    A few years ago, we spent the post Christmas term working g on the Survival Skills badge.
    I arranged with a local farmer for us to use his wood for the 24 hour exercise.
    Stream for water, plenty of wood etc.
    Plan was to go on the Friday night, practical sessions for all the skills we hadn’t been able to do in the hit and of course how to build the shelters.

    We sent the forms out, no response, asked them all about it, blank faces.

    So the Friday that we were supposed to be going away, we sat them down and did a programme session.
    What do you want to do?
    Camp, build fires and build shelters and sleep in them.
    You mean the things you were going to be doing this weekend if you had done the survival camp????


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    i can;t find it but on here somewhere is a guide to selling camps.

    it includes the point that we shoud not say " summer camp" but instead explain that it is a week of activities that includes archery, powerboating etc"

    survival camp- surviving does not sound fun.
    "the bear grylls fire camp" sounds awesome.

    we need to remember our customers are not au fait with how we describe things. "do you want to survive for a weekend?" or "do you want to do the bear grylls fire camp?"

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    Senior Member Shaun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    i can;t find it but on here somewhere is a guide to selling camps.

    it includes the point that we shoud not say " summer camp" but instead explain that it is a week of activities that includes archery, powerboating etc"

    survival camp- surviving does not sound fun.
    "the bear grylls fire camp" sounds awesome.

    we need to remember our customers are not au fait with how we describe things. "do you want to survive for a weekend?" or "do you want to do the bear grylls fire camp?"
    Thanks Chris, we’d been working towards this camp all term, so they knew what they were doing and that they needed to do this for the badge.


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    Hanging Heaton Scout Group

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    i can;t find it but on here somewhere is a guide to selling camps.

    it includes the point that we shoud not say " summer camp" but instead explain that it is a week of activities that includes archery, powerboating etc"

    survival camp- surviving does not sound fun.
    "the bear grylls fire camp" sounds awesome.

    we need to remember our customers are not au fait with how we describe things. "do you want to survive for a weekend?" or "do you want to do the bear grylls fire camp?"
    Years ago, back when we were super-keen, we organised an incident night hike for the district - we had about 120 scouts at it.

    It was called Operation Stealth.

    So yup, a wee bit of sales pitch goes a long way.

    (It rained for the entirety of the event and about a third of the route became impassable due to rain and signage disappearing. But they all came back the following year for The Great Escape, and the year after that for a wild west themed incident night hike. I can't remember what we called that one, we hired horses for it though - to which I took a massive allergic reaction. We also had inflatables on the field which spooked them badly - plus - I had to write a waiver on a napkin because they wanted me to wear a helmet, but cowboys don't wear helmets. Then, they wouldn't let us ride the horses down on our own, they insisted on sending a stable, ummm girl? - to lead each horse down to the campsite. They weren't prepared to compromise on that. To be fair though, it was as well, because due to the reaction I took (I looked like John Merrick) to the horse, I wouldn't have been able to ride it back up the road anyway.

    But I digress...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I think that there are a number of reasons for the lower level of youth lead scouting.

    1/ The older Scputs with the experience have been lost to Explorers so there is a lowering of maturity in the remaining PLS - although since in Navs we run right through till they leave (anout 16 -17) that doesn't work.
    I used to think this - but then i've worked with kids who are the age PLs used to be, and they're just as passive.
    2/ There is an increase in the done that, got the Tee shirt mentality - so Smithy went kayaking once and he is now an expert and is looking for the next thrill.
    3/ They do a lot of what we do at school.
    4/ Parents manage kids time and often we go to offer something different and there are half a dozen pipe up that they have done that with the family.
    5/ We are competing with many other activities - many of whom have a potential financial reward if the participants are skilled enough - any sports, dance, thatre etc..
    All of this is true and it all adds together. I've lost track of how many times i've had this kind of conversation:
    Smiffy: "I did shooting at PGL"
    Skip: "And how did you get on"
    Smiffy: "I missed almost every shot - I was rubbish at it and the 16 year old instructor was on his phone the whole time and wasnt interested in helping me"
    Skip: "Ok - so how about we spend the evening shooting, and our instructors will help you get better"
    Smiffy: "No thanks, I did shooting at PGL"
    6/ We are compting with instant gratification where kids play online games and get an instant thrill - I don't get it, I find the repetitive playing of levels to gain access to the next a rather dull affair after the third try.
    7/ They also don't know what they don't know.
    I suspect point 6 is why Smiffy wouldnt want to have another go at shooting and try to improve. He tried it once, wasnt good at it, had no support, so wont try it again.

    Not unrelated to this, we ran/ run a five minute activity at the end of meetings, where one person puts forward a piece of music that they like, we listen to it/ watch the video and then they explain why they like it. Out of 20 Navigators, only one went for something contemporary, everyne else went for music from the 70s or 80s - ie, music their parents play. around 50% of them never listen to music at all. This is the age range where we listened avidly to the top ten every week... At 16/16 some of us were walking around with the latest albums - Moody Blues/ ELP/ Family/ The Who/ we debated the musical talents of Marc Bolan and Noddy Holder - and laughed at anyone who liked the Sweet. We listened to Bob Dylan and Simon and Garfunkel, Poco ( still on my playlist), the Eagles... Most of the Navs could not name a comtemporay band.

    Our life experiences are hugely different from the kids we now work with.
    Maybe i'd like to think that its just that the kids in your group have decent taste in music and prefer the 70s and 80s stuff to some of the stuff thats around today!!

    Seriously though, we're just breeding another generation of passive snowflakes, who dont (or daren't) have an opinion lest their opinion be different to the "accepted" opinion.

    Years ago (probably around the millennium) before the argument for vegetarianism/veganism turned to greenhouse gas emissions, we had a number of Scouts turn vegetarian at the same time because they thought farming meat was bad for the countryside and cruel to animals... clearly something that had been covered in a lesson at school as it was a large group from the same school at the same time.

    We took them to visit a free range farm where they saw animals out in the fields. We showed them how the crop fields were huge with no hedgerows, no wild plants, etc. And how the sheep and cattle were grazing on grassland with wild flowers, ancient hedgerows, ponds, streams, etc. We explained that if everyone turned vegetarian the hedgerows would all be ripped out, the relatively "Unimproved" grassland would be turned over to crops, and the cattle would stop being farmed and thus be left to die out. We talked about the pesticides sprayed on crops and the effect they had on wildlife. We explained that everyone had a choice, and that they should always explore both sides of any argument and make a decision based on their own thoughts rather than those around them. We explained that there were cruelty issues to be aware of in farming, like the battery chicken farms they had learned about. But that that wasn't how all farms operated.

    How often are todays young people (or for that matter even adults) exposed to all sides of the argument and allowed to make their own minds up? Global warming is the current favourite. Everything in the media is extremely one sided. "The world is on fire", "We're destroying the planet", "We must give up meat, fossil fuels, etc immediately or else norwich will drown". Scientists who dispute the extent of the effect we are having on our planet (and there are plenty) are given no air time. No air time is given to the fact that even if we went carbon neutral tomorrow, the net effect on the world's carbon emmissions would be the square root of naff-all. People are being brainwashed into throwing away reusable plastic items which have plenty of life in them, to replace them with other materials because somehow plastic is "evil" (search "Plastic woggles" on 1st facebook and you'll see scout groups doing just that)

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Seriously though, we're just breeding another generation of passive snowflakes, who dont (or daren't) have an opinion lest their opinion be different to the "accepted" opinion.
    Seriously though, we seem to have bred a generation of really thin-skinned adults ready to scweam and shout and stamp their feet and get all red in the face when someone dares to have a different opinion to them. (not you, but, internet, generally, in my observation, the polarisation of politics etc etc) No wonder they keep their opinions to themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Global warming is the current favourite...or else norwich will drown"
    So...not all bad then?

    (I'm joking, I'm sure Norwich is lovely)
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

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    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Seriously though, we seem to have bred a generation of really thin-skinned adults ready to scweam and shout and stamp their feet and get all red in the face when someone dares to have a different opinion to them. (not you, but, internet, generally, in my observation, the polarisation of politics etc etc) No wonder they keep their opinions to themselves.
    The two clearly go hand in hand. Allegedly we live in a country with free speech. But if the things that you say cause offence to anyone, that's no longer considered acceptable. So essentially we dont have freedom of speech, or freedom of opinion any more. And young people learn not to express an opinion. They certainly arent encouraged to form their own opinions*


    *although they are of course now allowed to choose what gender they most identify with from an early age

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