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Thread: Parents Who Want To Stay With New Beavers

  1. #31
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    It's wrong. A parent helper not qualifying for DBS has no role they can be added as, so there is no such check.
    you are correct.

    however, up to last year a 'personal enquiry' included a dbs/crb check.

    now it seems that a personal enquiry does not include a dbs check, which is now separate.

    i believe this is to accommodate network who undertake only network activities. they still get checked (personal enquiry) through TSA records but don't get dbs checked as they are not in a qualifying role.

    clause b reads correct. a personal enquiry is always done for anyone aged over 18 in scouting.

    and see later in clause m.

    of course a parent helper is not a network scout and because of their 'role' (note the quotes!) they will need a dbs check.

    TM
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  2. #32
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    To be honest I don't understand why TSA don't change the roles thus:-

    Occasional Helper: non-DBSed, not overnight, not once a week or more/3 times in a month or whatever it is. Register on Compass, CE check. Used for parent rotas and similar. Would be used for anyone other than a one off visitor.

    DBS Cleared Helper: present OH "role"

    It would make sense. It's odd to me that we can run everyone against the CE database but we don't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    clause b reads correct. a personal enquiry is always done for anyone aged over 18 in scouting.
    No, it isn't. A parent helper who does not fulfil the DBS criteria does not presently get entered on Compass and receives no kind of check.

    of course a parent helper is not a network scout and because of their 'role' (note the quotes!) they will need a dbs check.
    Only if they fulfil the DBS criteria, which if they help on a rota of 5 weeks and don't do camps they most likely do not.

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  4. #33
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    To be honest I don't understand why TSA don't change the roles thus:-

    Occasional Helper: non-DBSed, not overnight, not once a week or more/3 times in a month or whatever it is. Register on Compass, CE check. Used for parent rotas and similar. Would be used for anyone other than a one off visitor.

    DBS Cleared Helper: present OH "role"

    It would make sense. It's odd to me that we can run everyone against the CE database but we don't.
    i don't follow you here!

    you do not need to check any parent who does not meet the dbs checking criteria. formalising people who really are occasional, such as on a parent rota once a term, is really not necessary.

    everyone is run against the TSA's database if they are over 18 and in a 'role', such as network scout or occasional helper and such like. we do not need to run someone who is very occasionally on a parent rota and who will be supervised.

    No, it isn't. A parent helper who does not fulfil the DBS criteria does not presently get entered on Compass and receives no kind of check.
    clause b is correct.

    there is no mention of compass in clause b!

    it reads:

    'A Personal Enquiry (including where relevant a criminal records disclosure check) will always berequired for any person aged 18 or over who meets any of the following criteria:

    wishes to become a Member or Associate member (for members of Scout Network - see3.26m below); or

    will be a member of an Executive Committee; or

    will be assisting with overnight activities (including Nights Away); or

    may be helping out once a week (or on four occasions in a thirty day period) or morefrequently; or

    will have unsupervised access to young people.'

    note it says: 'including where relevant a criminal records disclosure check'

    Only if they fulfil the DBS criteria, which if they help on a rota of 5 weeks and don't do camps they most likely do not.
    of course but my reference here to parent helper was to someone who did meet the dbs checking criteria.

    the rule as written is clumsy but it does read correct.

    the key thing now is that there is the 'including where relevant a criminal records disclosure check' bit added; it is only relevant for a role which meets the dbs checking criteria. there are adult roles, such as network scout only, where it is not relevant.

    TM
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    i don't follow you here!
    Not sure why but I'll try again.

    The Rule reads:

    a. No individual aged 18 or over may be permitted to undertake any role or responsibilities within Scouting until the appropriate enquiries have been made. The enquiries must include a Personal Enquiry to Headquarters, and certain roles require a disclosure as part of the Personal Enquiry process (see the Child Protection Policy and POR: The Appointment Process).

    It would be pushing it to say that being on a parent rota, however infrequent, was not any role or responsibilities. It is very clearly distinct from a one-off visitor. It is not a Role (an entry on Compass) but any court would agree it is a role.

    Therefore, the Rule is incorrect. I know what it means to say, but it doesn't. It says something that you can't actually do, because there is no Role (capital R) on Compass to CE check but not DBS check someone who is not Network.

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Not sure why but I'll try again.

    The Rule reads:

    a. No individual aged 18 or over may be permitted to undertake any role or responsibilities within Scouting until the appropriate enquiries have been made. The enquiries must include a Personal Enquiry to Headquarters, and certain roles require a disclosure as part of the Personal Enquiry process (see the Child Protection Policy and POR: The Appointment Process).

    It would be pushing it to say that being on a parent rota, however infrequent, was not any role or responsibilities. It is very clearly distinct from a one-off visitor. It is not a Role (an entry on Compass) but any court would agree it is a role.
    no it isn't, not in this context. they are 'one-off' visitors.

    TM
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  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    no it isn't, not in this context. they are 'one-off' visitors.
    No, they are not. They are regular but infrequent parent helpers.

    (The most regular train service in the UK operates between Stockport and Stalybridge precisely once a week).

  9. #37
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    No, they are not. They are regular but infrequent parent helpers.

    (The most regular train service in the UK operates between Stockport and Stalybridge precisely once a week).
    oh yes they are!

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree. a parent 'helper' who does not meet the dbs checking criteria is considered no differently to the waste disposal people who come to empty your bins. both must be supervised on site when young people are present and both do not require a dbs check.

    TM
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  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    I think we'll have to agree to disagree. a parent 'helper' who does not meet the dbs checking criteria is considered no differently to the waste disposal people who come to empty your bins. both must be supervised on site when young people are present and both do not require a dbs check.
    Then that bit of POR is wrong, as I say, because it is totally false that they are not "[undertaking] any role or responsibilities within Scouting".

    The bin man is not acting within Scouting, he is emptying the bins, normally when nobody is present anyway.

  11. #39
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    It does not help that TSA's rules don't appear to line up directly with the laws on DBS checks.

    So, lets take one of our ACSLs. He helps out every fortnight, so usually only twice a month. He has no intention to come on camp.

    By law, we probably shouldn't have done a DBS check.
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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    It does not help that TSA's rules don't appear to line up directly with the laws on DBS checks.

    So, lets take one of our ACSLs. He helps out every fortnight, so usually only twice a month. He has no intention to come on camp.

    By law, we probably shouldn't have done a DBS check.
    Accrrding to the checker here , he can have an enhanced check without a barred list check (assuming I have the answers right! ).

    1. What type of role is it?
    Caring for or working with children (under 18) or working in a school

    2. What does the role with children involve?
    Teaching or caring for children

    3. What does the teaching or caring involve?
    Teaching, training or supervising children, but not in a school, nursery, children's centre or home, detention service,

    4. Will the work be done frequently?
    No

    Or have I completely misunderstood your point.
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    These discussions drive me round the bend. Talk of it being 'illegal' for me to do this and that, followed by disagreements on the meaning of words in legalistic text - Ahh! What on earth is anyone meant to do in such situations?

    Realistically, has anyone ever been convicted of the crime of 'DBS checking someone that did not meet the criteria' - really? I would like to read the case of 'the Scout Leader that was over conscientious about child protection vs. QEII'.

    Has any judge ever thrown the book at a leader for not insisting a DBS on a parent looking after their own child at a club? I have sat on the side at the swimming club watching my (and other people's children) in the pool every week for years - what is the difference? Is there any case law to show what decision the judges actually make in such cases?

    If I have a parent that helps this week and 'might' help next week, do I insist that they are DBS checked now? If I do and they do not help next week, have I 'illegally' DBS checked them. If so, how could I have known. Ridiculous!

    My view, is that if it is possible that someone might require a DBS (e.g. they might want to come on Family Camp) I would 'offer' to have them DBS checked. I would explain that they do not 'need' to do the check until they finally make the decision on whether to come, but by then it might be too late - so they might to get it done now to avoid disappointment. If they change their mind and don't come will I be retrospectively prosecuted for having a broken crystal ball?

    So for you parent that is coming to watch over their child ... I would explain at the start that if they think they might like to attend every week for a while we will need to DBS check them. If they choose not to be DBS checked, that is fine, but should they find that they then do want to stay we might have to ask them to miss a few weeks while the checks are done.

    So sue me if you think that I have checked people that don't meet the 'criteria'.

    R.

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  15. #42
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Okay let’s try this one on you lot.

    These questions were put by a friend scouter who lives in the neighbouring district to where i scouted.

    My friend has a YL who turns 18 on 3rd May. The leader would like him to become an assistant leader (or at least a section assistant) in the scout group. They have given him all the information and have said to him to take his time. I believe the YL remains uncommitted because later in the year they are thinking of going to university and don’t how how that will affect their volunteering in the group; they not sure they wish to become a permanent leader (yet).

    Meanwhile district (I suspect explorer people and/or DC) have talked to him. They would like him to stay in scouting. They have suggested that while he makes up his mind he become a network scout. They will then run a personal enquiry including a DBS check on him, which will allow him to help as a young adult at the scout group.

    My friend, the GSL, is not sure. He says that as a network scout they’re not entitled to run a DBS check. Ah, but he (the current YL) will be helping out weekly at the group and that means he must be DBS checked. My friend argues that he should then hold an appropriate ‘role’ and not be just a network scout. He continues to say that this role should be as a leader, assistant, or section assistant. If they can’t decide on this role as yet because they don’t want to permanently commit (if they go away to university), then they should be an occasional helper, just as if they were a parent helping out some weeks, on camp, &c.

    My friend argues that the network approach is nothing more than a way around the rules and simply allows the district to hold on to them (the YL) as a member when they become an adult. As an occasional helper, they will not be a member. As a network scout helping out in the group they will circumvent the rule on committing to training (such as safeguarding). My friend says that if an adult working in the group want to hold responsibilities for young people then they must be trained. If they don’t hold these then they are simply an occasional helper and must follow the directions of the leader (team). Why do district argue differently and say the network approach as a possible interim is okay? Is it?

    So what is the correct approach?

    TM

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  16. #43
    Senior Member dasy2k1's Avatar
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    Correct approach is probabbly to register the person in question as a sectional assistant (which had a training obligation of getting started only) and they will also automatically become a network member....

    As and when they go off to uni then they can simply join ssago and or a group in their uni town and they will already be registered

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  18. #44
    Senior Member roger-uk's Avatar
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    I like Neil's reply but really does it make any difference.
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  19. #45
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasy2k1 View Post
    Correct approach is probably to register the person in question as a sectional assistant (which had a training obligation of getting started only) and they will also automatically become a network member....

    As and when they go off to uni then they can simply join ssago and or a group in their uni town and they will already be registered

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    i believe you are correct in your approach and this is what i have advised my friend to do. however, from my friend it appears that his soon to be adult is wary of taking on any 'permanent leader role', which they believe to be: section leader, assistant section leader, and section assistant.

    i am curious about what they mean by 'permanent'. i have a feeling they believe it to be a minimum number of hours every week as well as a lot of weekends. my friend has explained that leader and assistant roles take a lot of forms and that he will build one that is suitable for his (hopefully) new adult and will have built-in flexibility. i'm not sure he has been convincing enough.

    the attractiveness of the network role as explained by my friend's district is that it does not have any 'permanence' and is flexible enough to retain their membership of scouting as well as allow them to help out with junior sections in groups. i believe the district says that he can take on this network role when he turns 18 next year and this will allow him to remain in scouting and allow him to continue to do the things he does now. i.e. support junior sections, but as an adult without tying him down until he's made his university/career choices.

    my friend has said this is incorrect. signing up to network is joining a section and should not be considered to be some 'holding' or 'temporary' role until one's future choices have been made or become clear. furthermore, joining network does not give you a DBS check entitlement (though you do have to satisfy TSA checks of personal enquiry). if his current young leader takes on any role next year as an adult in a group (i.e. that involves 'regulated activity') then that must be as a leader, assistant leader, section assistant if they wish to retain membership of TSA or occasional helper, if they don't.

    taking on a network role and then getting a DBS check claiming that by helping out at beavers, say, they are undertaking regulated activity in a junior section is not against the law i believe. if you're doing regulated activity then you must have a DBS check. however, it is against TSA rules because network is not an appropriate group role such as leader, assistant leader, or section assistant or even just a simple occasional helper. it can also be viewed as a way to circumvent the training obligations that go with the first three of these roles.

    not a problem with taking on one of these group adult roles and then being added to network but there is if you do it the other way.

    i suspect the network approach is a simple fudge of sorts and is attractive to some because it seemingly allows one to continue on as before but without having to fulfil obligations, such as training. furthermore, it means there is another one on the district census which looks good; an occasional helper in a group does not appear on the census.

    thankfully not my problem!

    TM
    going...going...

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