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  1. #1
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    Question Saint Georges Cross

    I saw in the amended POR that the diagrams of badge positioning (Chapter 10) have been updated to show the positions of the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland badges.

    Why, as English, do we not wear a St Georges cross? Is it the usual 'English, we can't be proud' attitude, or is it something deeper?

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Taylor View Post
    I saw in the amended POR that the diagrams of badge positioning (Chapter 10) have been updated to show the positions of the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland badges.

    Why, as English, do we not wear a St Georges cross? Is it the usual 'English, we can't be proud' attitude, or is it something deeper?
    One might say that it is symptomatic of equating England with the United Kingdom... just lack of thought, I guess.

    You know what, buy some St George Cross badges and use them.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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  3. #3
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    Isn't it a bit like stamps - we invented it so we don't need to put our Country on it.
    Last edited by Kastor; 21-03-2017 at 06:44 AM.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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    I had a theory about that...

    I think its to do with UK cohesion. If we all had our nation state's badge displayed, then it would highlight the fact the UK is a union. By not having a St George's Cross, it maintains the over-arching idea of a union based on England being at its heart - which is sort of is given the numbers involved.

    Currently; Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh scouts (I think anyway) are thought of as adjuncts of UK (meaning English) Scouts.

    Kastor is right, Scouts was invented in England. But Ewan has a point too - the UK to many is England first then the other three afterwards. If you want to put one on your uniform though, why not.

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    If we want them only because others have them, then we don't need them.

  7. #6
    No mountain too high PeterSheppard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Taylor View Post
    I saw in the amended POR that the diagrams of badge positioning (Chapter 10) have been updated to show the positions of the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland badges.

    Why, as English, do we not wear a St Georges cross? Is it the usual 'English, we can't be proud' attitude, or is it something deeper?
    Quite simply because the badges are worn to signify membership of the Country Scout Councils in each of those three nations in the same way County and District badges signify membership of those Counties and Districts. There isn't an English Scout Council.

    (Cue a Neil Williams post about lack of need for certain of those Councils)
    Assistant Area Commissioner (14-25 Programme) - Gwent

    "Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap... but by the seeds you plant"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Currently; Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh scouts (I think anyway) are thought of as adjuncts of UK (meaning English) Scouts.
    On the other hand, would it be fair to elevate the status of 3 of the 11 UK Scout regions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    On the other hand, would it be fair to elevate the status of 3 of the 11 UK Scout regions?
    Nations are historically and culturally, different from regions, if we are acknowledging the national identity of the lumpy bits we should be consistent and acknowledge the other nation as well.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    Isn't it a bit like stamps - we invented it so we don't need to put our Country on it.
    Actually, that kind of validates my point. It was not invented in England, it was invented in the United Kingdom. At that time, the UK was the home of the British Empire and those who ran the Empire, had absolutely no consideration that any part of the British isles was anything but the United Kingdom. To them, Ireland ( all of it), Wales and Scotland were in fact just regions and for the most part the occupants accepted that.

    We live in changed times. The world has changed and the UK is not what it was (in any sense). So to equate any one part of these lands as The UK, is today not only wrong but more divisive than recognising the difference.

    I believe that it is only correct that English groups should be able to wear the flag of England, if they wish. It is one small step towards reclaiming your flag from the extreme right.

    Something that often happens when we parochials from the regions are abroad is that we get referred to as English, particularly by US Americans. Most Irish, Scots or Welsh are quick to clarify their origins. The effect can be quite rewarding

    If I were being really picky I'd say that the concept of what we do predates Scouts and that Scout is just a brand and BP was first away from the starting block amongst a number of contemporaries. There were social experiments in youth work long before Mafeking
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    Nations are historically and culturally, different from regions, if we are acknowledging the national identity of the lumpy bits we should be consistent and acknowledge the other nation as well.
    I think it is they who are acknowledging themselves by having a Scout Council and their own badges. I guess the other regions could do the same but choose not to. As I said previously, there is no point in creating things just because others have them.

    I think the 11 regions are very roughly equal in terms of population and Scout membership.

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    I've never seen a NI flag on a uniform, I've a name tape saying Northern Ireland on mine. We only use them for scouts who have gone abroad.

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    Senior Member lakes_stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    If I were being really picky I'd say that the concept of what we do predates Scouts and that Scout is just a brand and BP was first away from the starting block amongst a number of contemporaries. There were social experiments in youth work long before Mafeking
    Interestingly, I was going to mention that William Smith probably beat BP out of the blocks (although as you say, there were a number of contempories). Take a look at what the first paragraph says on this page...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willia...ys%27_Brigade)

    Of course this could have been written by anyone, but it appears that someone has a point they feel they would like to make that seems to be at odds with what I had been told and read elsewhere!
    Last edited by lakes_stu; 21-03-2017 at 09:53 AM.
    All posts represent my own opinions only. In no way do they speak for anyone else, including (but not limited to) my group, district, county or HQ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    I've never seen a NI flag on a uniform, I've a name tape saying Northern Ireland on mine. We only use them for scouts who have gone abroad.
    Members of the Scout Association in Northern Ireland wear the Red Hand of Ulster, as well as the appropriate County and District badges. Presumably this was decided by the NI Scout Council at some point in the past.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakes_stu View Post
    Interestingly, I was going to mention that William Smith probably beat BP out of the blocks (although as you say, there were a number of contempories). Take a look at what the first paragraph says on this page...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willia...ys%27_Brigade)

    Of course this could have been written by anyone, but it appears that someone has a point they feel they would like to make that seems to be at odds with what I had been told and read elsewhere!
    That entry is amusing. He did try to employ BP but at the time BB had rifles and did a lot of parading and BP disliked the militarism - something that he was vociferous about in Scouting post WW1 if you read his works.

    History records the victors and forgets the also rans. The earliest Scout Group in our little area was formed in 1924 from an organisation run by the church called, "The Knights of the Round Table". Now long forgotten, almost. I'd be very surprised if there were not a myriad of these groups that predated the BB and TSA which were subsumed by one or other in the passing years.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  16. #15
    Senior Member lakes_stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    That entry is amusing. He did try to employ BP but at the time BB had rifles and did a lot of parading and BP disliked the militarism - something that he was vociferous about in Scouting post WW1 if you read his works.

    History records the victors and forgets the also rans. The earliest Scout Group in our little area was formed in 1924 from an organisation run by the church called, "The Knights of the Round Table". Now long forgotten, almost. I'd be very surprised if there were not a myriad of these groups that predated the BB and TSA which were subsumed by one or other in the passing years.
    Yes, it made me smile too Ewan, you could tell by the way it was written that it was not based entirely on facts!

    I believe that BP and Smith did work together to some extent. However, although they both had a military background, it is interesting to note that they had fairly different opinions based on their experiences.
    All posts represent my own opinions only. In no way do they speak for anyone else, including (but not limited to) my group, district, county or HQ.

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