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Thread: Shot with a sniper rifle - goodbye Scouting

  1. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    This is not true. Not anyone can set up and run a Scout group.

    I know of several bodies, who disenfranchised by TSA, left, some had plans to set up an independent Scout Group. They can establish a youth group and operate as close to Scout structure and policy as they wish (though why they would want to emulate the very body they have just left is beyond me). When they looked into this in detail they discovered that the term Scout, as in Scout Association, Scout Federation etc, is actually protected in Law in the UK. Since 19 something or other the term Scout, in youth work, has been protected. Those organisations established prior to the protection can retain the term Scout in their title, newcomers cannot - hence Milton Keynes Adventurers, Sutton Coldfield Activity Unit (SCAUT) and of course Navigators.

    All can claim to be scouting, but none can claim to be Scouts - So "Navigator Scouts" is not allowed, but "Navigators as a new way of scouting", is permitted.
    Not actually true (witness Baden Powell Scout Association, founded ~1971). TSA will of course rigorously defend their trading name, trademarks, etc. I think you are referring to the Chartered Associations (Protection of Names and Uniforms) Act 1926 which was TSA's failed attempt to protect the term 'Boy Scout'. The act does prevent the use of protected uniforms, badges, etc or purporting or even appearing to act on behalf of the association without permission. If you want a quiet life, then don't do it.

  2. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Not actually true (witness Baden Powell Scout Association, founded ~1971). TSA will of course rigorously defend their trading name, trademarks, etc. I think you are referring to the Chartered Associations (Protection of Names and Uniforms) Act 1926 which was TSA's failed attempt to protect the term 'Boy Scout'. The act does prevent the use of protected uniforms, badges, etc or purporting or even appearing to act on behalf of the association without permission. If you want a quiet life, then don't do it.
    may have changed but the formal title of the Baden Powell Scouts is Baden Powell Scouts Association, and I suspect that the S is relevant

  3. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Rover View Post
    may have changed but the formal title of the Baden Powell Scouts is Baden Powell Scouts Association, and I suspect that the S is relevant
    Actually, the formal title is Baden-Powell Scouts' Association.

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    Our Scouts want to be part of TSA, which is a huge and generally successful, modern organisation going in the right direction. The TSA draft plan for the next 5 years looks sensible, much of what is said at the top is very sensible, as a movement it is a great thing, I find these guys wandering about in shorts and funny hats proposing themselves as an alternative just on a different planet.

    What needs change are the volunteer management processes and the top-down "military orders" approach. It's the bottom, group level which is the most important, and DC, CC etc should understand that their mission is to support those people, not act as their commander.

    Someone proposed franchising earlier in this thread, and I think that's a great model to adopt. Groups are effectively franchises that deliver the product to agreed standards, TSA own product development and marketing.

    For info on the website mentioned in an earlier version of this post, message me.
    Last edited by carlorimini; 08-12-2017 at 03:58 AM. Reason: problems

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  6. #410
    Senior Member bernwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlorimini View Post
    Our Scouts want to be part of TSA, which is a huge and generally successful, modern organisation going in the right direction. The TSA draft plan for the next 5 years looks sensible, much of what is said at the top is very sensible, as a movement it is a great thing, I find these guys wandering about in shorts and funny hats proposing themselves as an alternative just on a different planet.

    What needs change are the volunteer management processes and the top-down "military orders" approach. It's the bottom, group level which is the most important, and DC, CC etc should understand that their mission is to support those people, not act as their commander.

    I currently find myself in a termination situation I discuss at bulliedoutofscouting.com, a site I put up to fight against the TSA secrecy approach to these things. No right of appeal is ludicrous, I'm sure I read a paper by Tim Kidd last year where he proposed moving appeals out of the home district and that should be a minimum.
    Just read through your website and the mirrors to my situation are shocking. You only have to rub one of these dictators up the wrong way and they put on the black cap of judge, jury and executioner. Looked at the vacancy for county commissioner and your right, support of leaders, is scarcely mentioned and is not listed as one of their core skills. The hierarchy of scouting needs urgent review as the power balance is seriously out of kilter at the present time

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    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood View Post
    Just read through your website and the mirrors to my situation are shocking. You only have to rub one of these dictators up the wrong way and they put on the black cap of judge, jury and executioner. Looked at the vacancy for county commissioner and your right, support of leaders, is scarcely mentioned and is not listed as one of their core skills. The hierarchy of scouting needs urgent review as the power balance is seriously out of kilter at the present time
    your description of your situation is nothing like that case.

    have you missed any of the tale?

  8. #412
    Senior Member bernwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    your description of your situation is nothing like that case.

    have you missed any of the tale?
    I was thinking more of how your reputation can be ripped away from you in an instant on the behest of a DC.

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  10. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood View Post
    I was thinking more of how your reputation can be ripped away from you in an instant on the behest of a DC.
    aha... then yes

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  12. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlorimini View Post
    Our Scouts want to be part of TSA, which is a huge and generally successful, modern organisation going in the right direction. The TSA draft plan for the next 5 years looks sensible, much of what is said at the top is very sensible, as a movement it is a great thing, I find these guys wandering about in shorts and funny hats proposing themselves as an alternative just on a different planet.


    hiya carlo and welcome to escouts.

    as we all know and agree: scouting is a worldwide family. we are all different. we are all entitled to our personal views and opinions. i don't have an issue with shorts and lemon-squeezer hats. like you they're not for me but they are just scouting in another way. the scouting family is a huge sum of very different parts. questa e la vita!

    What needs change are the volunteer management processes and the top-down "military orders" approach. It's the bottom, group level which is the most important, and DC, CC etc should understand that their mission is to support those people, not act as their commander.


    and just like the ways we do scouting are different, our views and opinions differ too. i respect your views but i don't agree with them and i'm sure the flip-side is also true and no different.

    i don't see it as a top-down military orders situation. However, I do see some people in middle management, DCs and CCs, who like to pronounce rather than consult.

    i don't see the bottom, group-level, as being of sole importance; every level is important each to their own responsibilities for delivering the good scouting programme.

    and, i don't see the DC and CC roles being just about 'support' ('here mate hold the ladder while i put the star on the tree. after that you can get lost.' is not something i'd say or attitude I’d want to see.)

    Nowadays DCs and CCs need to be facilitators, enablers, strategists and visionaries, &c. It is not a role for the blinkered, shouty, traditional scouting ‘manager’.

    They are not people you believe you can call on in a passing need or whim and then simply dismiss as one chooses. They are not the centre of scouting but neither are they a part of scouting you can simply ignore.

    we have to work as a variety of teams at all levels; in fact i'd prefer not to talk about levels but rather talk in terms of teams, ‘fluid’ teams with varying roles, responsibilities, skills and talents. a DC and CC has to be a leader but more importantly leaders of teams, not dictators. certainly tough decisions have to be made by these people but far too many it seems are made unilaterally and dictatorially and not consensual. The ‘bugger you I’m the boss’ attitude sometimes seen is not helpful, supportive or good leadership. a good leader doesn’t always have to be the one in front, doesn’t always have to be the one with the ‘map & compass’, doesn’t have to be the sole person to make decisions, and isn’t always the one with the most skills/experience. my role in scouting is as a caretaker (sometimes literally) and I think so too should be DCs and CCs. there does need to be a major culture change by those in CC and DC roles.

    I currently find myself in a termination situation I discuss at
    bulliedoutofscouting.com, a site I put up to fight against the TSA secrecy approach to these things. No right of appeal is ludicrous, I'm sure I read a paper by Tim Kidd last year where he proposed moving appeals out of the home district and that should be a minimum.


    I found your blog to be quite an alarming read. what on earth has happened to cause so much upset!

    Actually I don’t believe that posting this blog does you or your grievances any good. you come across as very bitter and i have no idea what you were/are hoping to achieve in publishing this blog. no doubt it will cause annoyance among your colleagues/former colleagues. i’ve been unfortunate to have a number of DCs who have caused me grief on and off over the few years i’ve been in scouting but I would never dream of giving vent to my grievances in such a way. (I have been tempted but i know it would do more harm than good.)

    To get into a confrontation over a vending machine seems quite bizarre! I know all about the difficulties with explorer scouting provision. the intransigence in some places is yet one more bizarre issue in scouting. i can recall sometime ago getting into a dispute of sorts with the DC about appointment reviews. he insisted it was up to him to choose the process and procedures; he was DC and he was going to do it his way. I simply said that i respected his wishes and responsibilities, however, TSA had a clear procedure and process which had to be followed. i stuck to my guns and won but i didn’t stamp my feet, didn’t start shouting, didn’t explode it into some war, and didn’t ‘attack’ the DC.

    a neighbouring GSL isn’t exactly one of my favourite scouters, even less a friend but my thoughts about them I keep to myself and I will always pay them the respect of the role they’re in. it’s really not worth making enemies.

    the complaints procedure needs a lot of re-working and revision. i can see what it tries to do but it’s written more for parents complaining about their son’s or daughter’s scouting, it’s not for leaders wishing to complain about their DC. the line management being so intimately involved in disputes and complaints doesn’t help when the line management is a subject of the dispute.

    i cannot fathom what one can do when when one is dismissed through an appointment review. you can appeal against the process but not the result, eh?

    what on earth is meant by being dismissed from scouting by….dismissal? it’s such an open term it could mean anything from gross indiscipline to one’s face not fitting. I most certainly do not favour a leader being dismissed by a DC through an appointment review just because the leader is in dispute with the DC. crikey! the fact that one cannot seemingly appeal against such a dismissal is frankly ludicrous.

    people need to be able to raise their grievances and have them considered respectfully and not feel that the system is working against them. DCs and CCs should not be able to make the system work for them over and above any other member. Where a DC or CC is involved in a dispute/complaint/grievance then the complainant should have the right to have their complaint considered by a body that is independent of the DC or CC. the system just doesn’t work as currently structured.


    i’ve been threatened with dismissal just because I was unwilling to comply with an arbitrary deadline set by the DC. (I needed time to consider an issue and was busy with family and work. Just a couple of days that’s all.) I found that unacceptable.

    I know people in scouting who have experienced adult bullying by others. that is frankly unacceptable but it seems little is being done to tackle adult bullying in scouting.

    I can understand someone being dismissed from their job/work because of unacceptable/poor performance - whatever that might mean in the context of the job/work. However, an adult scouter being dismissed for poor performance i find quite bizarre. sure if poor performance comprises flagrant flouting of POR, taking unacceptable risks, running a programme which has young people behaving as feral kids, &c, however, would poor performance constitute not achieving the average number of awards in a section, or failing to run 5 camps a year, or playing too many games, or something else someone subjectively labels as poor?

    and i particularly dislike seeing managers going after people just because they don’t toe the line. that doesn’t mean them abusing POR, it just simply means they disagree with the way the DC does things. we are a rich tapestry of many different patterns and colours; we don’t all need to be one colour or one stripe or one pattern.

    i understand your concerns and i do sympathise with the situation you find yourself in but i don’t support your blog or with the aims of what it’s seemingly trying to do.

    i have no idea what exactly is involved in bernwood’s case. he does seem to have fallen foul of someone taking an extreme stance in an appointment review which has subsequently led to dismissal (i think). this has led to notice being given to HQ vetting of him being ‘unsatisfactory’ (in the opinion of the district that has dismissed him) and that now is proving to be a block on him rejoining elsewhere. I suspect that HQ vetting are taking little interest in his case and leaving it simply to the districts to sort out and that the district who dismissed him are simply sitting on it, maybe out of spite, who knows? the process is ‘stuck’ because HQ vetting i suspect are having to make a judgement about the suitability of bernwood for which they have little or no evidence other than what has been submitted by his last district; so basically they’re unable to do anything. HQ vetting in these situations is not the most appropriate body to make a judgement on suitability.

    the whole process is clunky and is open to being delayed and driven down cul-de-sacs by various people simply through their subjective unchallenged and unquestioned opinions.

    it’s immaterial whether it’s fair or not or whether TSA believes it to be fair…

    ...most people who have seen it or experienced it see it as being unfair and unworkable.

    TM

    p.s i see you have restricted access/viewing of your blog. good move, imo.


    going...going...still here...just

  13. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood View Post
    I was thinking more of how your reputation can be ripped away from you in an instant on the behest of a DC.
    With, even worse, no opportunity to appeal or have the decision challenged.

    Paul

  14. #416
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood View Post
    I was thinking more of how your reputation can be ripped away from you in an instant on the behest of a DC.
    Absolutely...

    Not long after my resignation, a member here, from a different County, contacted me to advise that word was being spread that I had misappropriated equipment. This was Later repeated publicly, and I have retained the evidence and have warned that should the lie ever be repeated again, I will chase them for every penny they have. I have not seen anything since, but I know that I am being badmouthed because I meet people and they tell me. My boys meet people and they give them the heads up.

    I am more than happy for the DC, the CC. District or County to make their accusations in public, because they will have to defend them in court shortly thereafter.

    Met a chap the other week, never met before, I introduced myself. He said, "Oh, I have heard about you." I said, "You are in Scouts? Then it will all have been bad." His red face gave away the answer...

    Now, I didn't resign to set up Navigators, I honestly didn't. Why would I, I had done my 20 years give or take. I did want to continue teaching kayaking. Despite the best efforts of some sectors in Scouting to stop us they actually inspired us to make it happen. Within four years we have bult a strong reputation, got recognition by Sport England in grant form ( try getting that without doing it right), and have reached the stage where our Navigators are now stable and I would guess the largest "scout" section locally. We are finding establishing membership of Junior Navs a challenge due to competing with other activities, after school clubs etc. but when we get it right... I no longer worry about the muck spread by others, it just shows them for what they are.


    Bernwood, for you, I suggest that you take your skills down the road a little and offer your services to the BBS&BGS, or find a Federation or UKBPSA Group, go there and use your skills and enthusiasm to make them the best they can possibly be.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  15. #417
    Senior Member bernwood's Avatar
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    Bernwood, for you, I suggest that you take your skills down the road a little and offer your services to the BBS&BGS, or find a Federation or UKBPSA Group, go there and use your skills and enthusiasm to make them the best they can possibly be.[/QUOTE]

    I truly would if possible but there are no BBS BGS UKBPSA or Navigators in my area. To be honest I couldn't join the first three as they are far too old school in their uniform and approach ( I was a million miles from that as a CSL and don't feel I could bend that far) Navigators looks to me better than Scouts, It's structure and outlook, are brilliant, modern and forward looking. I don't want to set up a group myself as I'm not a GSL type and prefer to be down the sharp end. There were rumours that Navigators would start up in Milton Keynes (35 miles) but it hasn't started yet - at least I can't find them on the net. I've sent a letter of complaint in, but not holding my breath, and to be honest if its not sorted out by the new year, I shall call them and hoist the white flag, after 304 days in vetting I've rather got bored of the whole thing.

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    Re Navs in MK, I believe the person who might have been looking at it went alone instead, no idea how he's getting on with it, though he posts on 1FB from time to time.

  17. #419
    Senior Member bernwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Re Navs in MK, I believe the person who might have been looking at it went alone instead, no idea how he's getting on with it, though he posts on 1FB from time to time.
    There this group in MK https://www.adventurersmk.com/ but not sure its really for me as its seems very centred on bush craft and doesn't run as wide a program as Scouting. If I quit my fight with Scouting may take a further look.

  18. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood View Post
    There this group in MK https://www.adventurersmk.com/ but not sure its really for me as its seems very centred on bush craft and doesn't run as wide a program as Scouting. If I quit my fight with Scouting may take a further look.
    Yes, that's the one. I have no involvement with them so can't comment on what they do, but I do know the guy in charge is a former Scout Leader. (I have no idea, by the way, as to why he is; if you do choose to go that way you may well want to do some digging of your own first).

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