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  1. #16
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Its a pity you didn't come to the sea scout conference that Richard Hart organised a few weeks ago.

    be positive, there is lots you can do. YOU DO NOT NEED ANY QUALIFICATIONS! with the right support you only need to gain enough skills to be safe on the waters you are intending to use. A helpful assessor can get you underway, with some training its possible to have a limited permit that allows you on water you are familiar with.

    All sections can do every activity. Its what the adult thinks it should looks like that becomes the problem trying to teach beavers low brace is never going to work!!. we have kayaked with the beavers, yes the boats are to big, but they splash about and we surround them with adults and they love it. Rowing is easy this is where we get a few parents in the boats as well, and we play at pirates, lots of water fights etc.

    try to get your leaders not to be section specific, just because they are a scout leader doesn't mean they are there just for the scouts. Maybe try the way run, we have leaders and then we have other adults who provide the water activities, there is some cross over, but it works ok.

    Also contact people like Jay Thompson, there is a real recognition in the movement that they need to solve the lack of permitted leaders. (the average age of a permit holder is 55!!) so you are getting involved at the right time.

    yes you will hear lots of myths, you will run into a lot of us old ones who have faced lots of problems with permits etc. But trust me it is doable and it doesn't need to be as hard as you think.
    I really don't know why others cannot take that view.

    Actually, I do know... It has everything to do with a Coronor's Court a long time ago...
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  2. #17
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    My son has done his courses through Dockland Scout Project. He did take two attempts at the kayaking. The course was one weekend. His prior experience the occasional evening or an hour or two at camp through scouts.

    http://www.lordamory.org/courses.asp


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  3. #18
    Sea Scout Leader richardnhunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I refer you to - Assessment checklist for kayaking (AC120919)

    Which, of course, does allow for assessment, but one still needs all the basic requirements that would be met by holding an L2 qualification. Shaun is in West Yorkshire, which has for as many years as I have been involved, insisted on L2 with very few exceptions.
    The L2 is a qualification that passports you through the technical strand without practical assesssment. If a county chooses to wrongly insist on it, that shouldn't lead to us telling people it is the only way. The assessment checklist is clear that we are effectively looking for flatwater elements of 3 star, fsrt skills, group control and safe paddling. We do not need to hold an L2.

    In fact, if an assssor recommends on compass, the Commissiomer would have to decline on personal suitability or similar - they don't see the technical quals box I believe

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I really don't know why others cannot take that view.
    They do.

    The scout association does not require an L2 to lead people. It requires its permit scheme and a risk assessment. I cannot speak for navigators.

    British Canoeing is also starting to differentiate between leading taster/social paddles and coaching skills development - hence the new paddle sports leader awards. I can remember about 3 years ago at a coach conference being told that sub 35% of paddling was led by coaches, so it's not a new phenomenon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Actually, I do know... It has everything to do with a Coronor's Court a long time ago...
    Sorry, are we talking the West Yorkshire local rule issue?

    One of the things that should be understood is that the majority of injuries we get in scout paddle sport relate to:
    - lifting/carrying/tripping etc on the bank
    - paddle to the head when people are close together

    We need to manage those risks as well as obviously the more severe

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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I really don't know why others cannot take that view.

    Actually, I do know... It has everything to do with a Coronor's Court a long time ago...
    Which led to WY's local rules? That still makes no sense. Either they need to be national rules or not at all. There is nothing different about WY as a place that justifies this approach.

    Do they also require ML for T2 and SPA for climbing? If not, what's different?

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  7. #20
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Which led to WY's local rules? That still makes no sense. Either they need to be national rules or not at all. There is nothing different about WY as a place that justifies this approach.

    Do they also require ML for T2 and SPA for climbing? If not, what's different?
    I will be very careful as I did at one time try to access the Coronor's report but it was no longer readily available.

    The story behind the requirement goes back to an incident, I believe on a canal. Where an experienced and qualified instructor was unfortunate enough to have an incident that resulted in a fatality. The Coronor found no fault on the part of the instructor, but the outcome for WY Scouts was that all canals and waters in West Yorkshire ( with one or two exceptions) were reclassified as B1. Leading to the craxy concept that , in theory, a Leader could take scouts out on a canal in Lancashire that was classified as Class C, but not on that same water when it crossed into West Yorkshire...

    It also led to the near exclusive requirement for a L2 Coach qualification. We started out with L1 Placid Water and could not get authorised for Scouts, even though we could coach at the local canoe club. It was nonsense.

    I cannot speak for Climbing or Hillwalking in WY, I dropped both those Permits when they upped the ante.

    For Navigators, at my Group, we have the Kayaking, the Archery, the Shooting and the Climbing NGB, Hillwalking is not an issue as we don't do a great deal as we simply don't have the time. But, we do have access to ML people if required.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  8. #21
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    Well looking at West Yorkshires web site, it looks like they follow the national rules? so I can only assumes its one or two of their own assessors who are conspiring themselves not to follow them?
    Paul Austin
    Kent Scouts SASU Water team
    G0AXQ, intrests in Scouting, Cycling, Hiking, anything on the water. seeing the young people achive.

  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    The story behind the requirement goes back to an incident, I believe on a canal. Where an experienced and qualified instructor was unfortunate enough to have an incident that resulted in a fatality. The Coronor found no fault on the part of the instructor, but the outcome for WY Scouts was that all canals and waters in West Yorkshire ( with one or two exceptions) were reclassified as B1.
    That sounds like someone with an agenda - if no fault was found, why did anything actually need to change?

    For Navigators, at my Group, we have the Kayaking, the Archery, the Shooting and the Climbing NGB, Hillwalking is not an issue as we don't do a great deal as we simply don't have the time. But, we do have access to ML people if required.
    You are very, very privileged indeed - not that you haven't worked hard for it, of course, you have, but expecting Groups everywhere to have those resources is beyond unrealistic, so the more regulation you pile on, the less activity takes place.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Well looking at West Yorkshires web site, it looks like they follow the national rules? so I can only assumes its one or two of their own assessors who are conspiring themselves not to follow them?
    I *thought* it was the CC.

  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Its a pity you didn't come to the sea scout conference that Richard Hart organised a few weeks ago.

    be positive, there is lots you can do. YOU DO NOT NEED ANY QUALIFICATIONS! with the right support you only need to gain enough skills to be safe on the waters you are intending to use. A helpful assessor can get you underway, with some training its possible to have a limited permit that allows you on water you are familiar with.
    Thanks for the positive post! It's easy to get caught up in your own Section or Group and not realise what other people are achieving and how they are managing to do it.

    Someone from our group was at the sea scout conference and it sounded great. Unfortunately, as a Cub leader, no one had told me it was happening.

    It's interesting to hear about differing views on requirements for permits. I got the impression from discussion in our group that L2 coach was required to get a canoe/kayak permit. Clearly, getting BCU 3*, FSRT and some experience of group management would be a lot easier. I'll get in discussion with a local assessor to see what their view is. I really just wanted to get an idea of what was achievable before starting.

    try to get your leaders not to be section specific, just because they are a scout leader doesn't mean they are there just for the scouts.
    Another good point. Actually, I think it will be easier to persuade the group to train the Cub leaders if we make clear we can help with other sections aswell. To be fair to our other sections, the Leaders have helped us with water activities in the past, but we can't expect too much from them if we can't offer any help in return.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by claire.shadbolt View Post
    My son has done his courses through Dockland Scout Project.
    Thanks! They look great, and their prices are about half of most other places I've looked.

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Well looking at West Yorkshires web site, it looks like they follow the national rules? so I can only assumes its one or two of their own assessors who are conspiring themselves not to follow them?
    Re West Yorkshire, I'm reliably informed that they're also still sticking to the old 'maximum of 1 night' requirement for Beavers and that's from on-high in County. I'm not familiar with the issues that Ewan is referring to, though.
    Assistant Cub Scout Leader (1st South Leeds & Morley) | Training Adviser (Central Yorkshire)


  12. #25
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    Forgot to mention, as the rules on who can attend the RN training at Portsmouth is now relaxed, you might find that you could some leader training down there. Its very good and if you can get some experience before you go it may even be possible for you to obtain a permit.
    Paul Austin
    Kent Scouts SASU Water team
    G0AXQ, intrests in Scouting, Cycling, Hiking, anything on the water. seeing the young people achive.

  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darren-M View Post
    Re West Yorkshire, I'm reliably informed that they're also still sticking to the old 'maximum of 1 night' requirement for Beavers and that's from on-high in County. I'm not familiar with the issues that Ewan is referring to, though.
    If evidence of that can be obtained (i.e. who) I know someone who would be willing to take that specific one on

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  15. #27
    AESL & AGSL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darren-M View Post
    Re West Yorkshire, I'm reliably informed that they're also still sticking to the old 'maximum of 1 night' requirement for Beavers and that's from on-high in County. I'm not familiar with the issues that Ewan is referring to, though.
    Why does that one not suprise me? I am often very glad that someone chose to make up an extra County in Scouting that does not and has not ever existed in any other form

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Assistant Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  16. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Why does that one not suprise me? I am often very glad that someone chose to make up an extra County in Scouting that does not and has not ever existed in any other form
    I scouted briefly in West Yorkshire. I think some things there work really well (they seem to have a pretty active climbing team, which we certainly don't based on the amount of emails I've sent that have been ignored), but lots of oddities.

    Irks me no end that Central Yorkshire is virtually entirely in West Yorkshire geographically, though!
    Assistant Cub Scout Leader (1st South Leeds & Morley) | Training Adviser (Central Yorkshire)


  17. #29
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    If evidence of that can be obtained (i.e. who) I know someone who would be willing to take that specific one on
    Oh. don't be so sure. I took a local rule to Wayne and got shot down in flames. It was okay to have a local rule at County that countered another local rule at Districts.

    Remember, I ended up walking away because of a local rule that undermined my role as GSL, ( and was backed by 21 other adults who also left as a consequence).

    I believe ( I may be mistaken) that another party in a District far far away retired before he got his Shooting Permit.... Even though Wayne intervened and explained it was not needed...

    I got my knuckles wrapped for bringing that issue to the attention of Wayne.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Oh. don't be so sure. I took a local rule to Wayne and got shot down in flames. It was okay to have a local rule at County that countered another local rule at Districts.
    The local rule concerned, to be fair (are we thinking of a GSL not able to do Appointment Reviews for family?) is one I actually agree with the content of (although not it being a local rule) and I would make it a national rule just as it is for references. I personally wouldn't do such reviews anyway because of the potential conflict of interest, this would not require me a rule to think it was a bit not-quite-right. DBS ID checks are probably vaguely similar in concept.

    I'd object to it being a local rule because I object to local rules full stop, but not at all to the principle (in fact I agree with the principle), and I think in your case it was more the latter than the former?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I believe ( I may be mistaken) that another party in a District far far away retired before he got his Shooting Permit.... Even though Wayne intervened and explained it was not needed...
    On that one...

    DC needs to approve (9.1b) - I hate this rule but it exists.

    DC is therefore responsible for checking NSRA certificate for shooting.

    DC puts a process behind this that he happens to call a Shooting Permit.

    Is it *really* a local rule or just a bit of procedure for convenience?

    (I can barely believe I'm posting these two posts given my opposition to local rules, but these ones do not seem the worst I've seen by any stretch of the imagination)

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