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Thread: Sexual abuse in cadets

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    As for Scouting - sadly it is still going on - Paul Cherrett in Bournemouth being the latest tale of shame - not least because TSA had heard concerns but left him in a position to abuse up to his final offences in 2016. They stopped him being a leader but left him with access to kids. He had a clean DBS at the time of his arrest. So I guess if these stories make us all a bit more alert and a bit more reasonably questioning of behaviour we see around us then its not such a bad thing.
    Define "TSA had heard concerns"

    Does that mean a parent had made a complaint to the police ? or to the scout DC ? or that the abuse was so well known in the troop that everyone thought that the adults must know so didn't actually report it ? I understand this guy went away for a while and when he was DBSed on his return it was clean, if there was no record how was the local district meant to know ?

    Also remember child witnesses have only been protected during cross examination relatively recently, historically lawyers would have quite happily re- traumatised a child witness in order to get their client off. If the parents had decided to report abuse to the DC but not the police all that DC could do is internal discipline an unsupported allegation of abuse could have landed the DC in court for slander/liable if the family still didn't let their child testify.

    That is not to justify pressuring parents who wanted to go to the police to prevent them doing so, just to explain that the thinking of what was in a childs best interests differed in the past and so consequently did the ability of scout officials to act upon allegations which had not been reported to the police.
    Last edited by Tony Ransley; 04-07-2017 at 03:25 PM.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    What sort of parent would allow anyone to sweet talk them into not going to the police? This seems fishy to me.
    Really? Easy as pie. Someone in authority sits there all reasonable and promises that the abuser will be removed and won't be able to abuse any more, and do they really want to put their child through scary police interviews where they might not be believed and have to go to court and tell it all again and be cross examined and it could all drag on for years and years and is that really best for the child? Much better that it all just quietly goes away don't you agree? Much better your child doesn't suffer any more. Well thanks for the tea and biscuits, what a lovely house you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    So I do accept there are victims within the cadets but I do not accept, based on what has been presented so far that there was any 'cover up' or that it was systematic.
    Taking what was said in the article at face value (after all, if it isn't true, that's libellous), then I can't see how you can't see that historically abuse was covered up. There was no mention I could see that it was systematically covered up (i.e. there was a system in place for covering up cases of abuse) but that some of the abuse is described as systematic, i.e. planned and methodical.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Sufficient concerns to remove him as a leader in the 1980's - he continued as Treasurer or some such but was also allowed to run a tuck shop at one of the camp sites. However my point was more that just because we've now got robust DBS policies and hopefully decent safeguarding provisions in place, it doesn't mean it can't happen now. He got caught because he inadvertently got filmed on CCTV "in the act" in 2016 - it was then that the historic stuff came to light. The discovery was purely accidental and not provoked by a complaint.
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    However my point was more that just because we've now got robust DBS policies and hopefully decent safeguarding provisions in place, it doesn't mean it can't happen now.
    AGREED.

    I am more concerned about adults who think that sexual abuse can only happen in someone else group/youth movement.

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    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Sexual abuse in cadets

    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Really? Easy as pie. Someone in authority sits there all reasonable and promises that the abuser will be removed and won't be able to abuse any more, and do they really want to put their child through scary police interviews where they might not be believed and have to go to court and tell it all again and be cross examined and it could all drag on for years and years and is that really best for the child? Much better that it all just quietly goes away don't you agree? Much better your child doesn't suffer any more. Well thanks for the tea and biscuits, what a lovely house you have.



    Taking what was said in the article at face value (after all, if it isn't true, that's libellous), then I can't see how you can't see that historically abuse was covered up. There was no mention I could see that it was systematically covered up (i.e. there was a system in place for covering up cases of abuse) but that some of the abuse is described as systematic, i.e. planned and methodical.
    There is no evidence at all. Just a version of events from one side. There is always two sides to a story.

    I am not for one minute suggesting anything one way or the other. Just going on what has been presented. Which is not much.

  7. #21
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    I suppose, this isn't just dealing with issues around the act itself. Its also a question of trust and more pertinently belief.

    There has to be trust in leaders and also in young people. The flip side of, or active ingredient of trust though - is belief. When an allegation is made, who does one believe? On the one hand you might have a long standing well regarded adult and on the other, a kid. The adult has been there for years, the kid for months... That's not even beginning to deal with actual evidence and circumstances round it...

    Its not easy at all. Even putting yourself in the shoes of a person on the periphery. You might know the kid and the adult... And you might not know who to believe, the nature of the thing is that its not done in plane view... And ironically, a standard joke about being a Scout 'Master' is that you're also a 'pedo', the banality of the statement could mean, that people rule it out as being too obvious, too cliched.

    I'd like to think my moral compass would put me on the side of the kid, come what may... But who can say... Going back to that link in the Times re. Carey... His son is suggesting his father is as much a victim as anyone else... I mean I don't think that is true at all... But can you honestly say (with 100% surety) that you would have acted differently?

    Awkward questions indeed.

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    Personally I would never take one side or the other. I certainly would never judge anyone without evidence. Everyone deserves a free trial if the evidence is there to demand one. As hard as it is to say one child with nothing but words is not evidence.

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    Keith at 2M Keith at 2M's Avatar
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    Difficult one to call. You have a 'gut feeling' about someone but no evidence, just unfounded rumours, possibly malicious, which you cannot act on. Remember we only report, we don't investigate so what can you 'report' and to who? A clean DBS should put them on the same footing as all other leaders. You feel a bit uneasy about X and the kids make jokes about him being a paedo? Not enough to take action and you could wrongly destroy a totally innocent man.

    Years later hard evidence comes to light and people start asking why was nothing done to protect the victims when some adults had misgivings?

    Not sure TSA can win this argument - I will watch Panorama with interest.
    The Roman Empire did not become great by holding meetings. It did so by killing everyone that opposed their point of view.

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    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    If the parents had decided to report abuse to the DC but not the police all that DC could do is internal discipline an unsupported allegation of abuse could have landed the DC in court for slander/liable if the family still didn't let their child testify.
    As I understand it (and I beleive the relevant court case is Westcott v Westcott) reporting suspicions of a crime to the police is subject to absolute privelage, and legal action cannot be brought for slander or libel.

    Or of course there is the confidential crimestoppers line.

    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    As I understand it (and I beleive the relevant court case is Westcott v Westcott) reporting suspicions of a crime to the police is subject to absolute privelage, and legal action cannot be brought for slander or libel.

    Or of course there is the confidential crimestoppers line.
    Thank you, I didn't know that

    I suppose it would depend on when that ruling occurred and how widely known it was, some historical abuse would have taken place before crime stoppers, that's life etc.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    As I understand it (and I beleive the relevant court case is Westcott v Westcott) reporting suspicions of a crime to the police is subject to absolute privelage, and legal action cannot be brought for slander or libel.

    Or of course there is the confidential crimestoppers line.
    Interesting point. If you report a suspected abuse case to the Police, you have an element of protection as the report will say it was sourced from the Police. If you go through the proper Scouting channels, the report will say it was sourced from the Scout Association... somewhat reducing the anonynimity.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith at 2M View Post
    Difficult one to call. You have a 'gut feeling' about someone but no evidence, just unfounded rumours, possibly malicious, which you cannot act on. Remember we only report, we don't investigate so what can you 'report' and to who? A clean DBS should put them on the same footing as all other leaders. You feel a bit uneasy about X and the kids make jokes about him being a paedo? Not enough to take action and you could wrongly destroy a totally innocent man.

    Years later hard evidence comes to light and people start asking why was nothing done to protect the victims when some adults had misgivings?

    Not sure TSA can win this argument - I will watch Panorama with interest.
    It is an unwinnable argument today.

    Unfortunately, TSA (and others) have been caught out when they have suspended an individual, and said nothing, and that individual is later arrested and charged with offences that took place at, or about, the time of his dismissal. Of course, no-one knows whether that individual and his cohorts were actually under investigation for the whole of the period from dismissal
    l to arrest. The press, however will presume that TSA knew and did nothing. It is an argument that cannot be won.
    Ewan Scott

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    Senior Member CambridgeSkip's Avatar
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    At the risk of sounding like an utter coward..... that awful decision about what to do about unproven allegations is one reason (among many) why I didn't take a DC position when offered. It is a dreadful call to have to make and I am rather glad I don't have to make it.

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    Senior Member ChrisA's Avatar
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    I watched the Panorama programme last night. Hmmmm "I have absolutely no doubts that the abuse in the Cadets will mirror the other scandals like the Jimmy Saville case, like the abuse in the Scouts, like abuse in the Catholic Church". So said a man from the law firm which is representing the victims.
    Kerching, kerching. Cynical, Moi??

    Chris A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
    I watched the Panorama programme last night. Hmmmm "I have absolutely no doubts that the abuse in the Cadets will mirror the other scandals like the Jimmy Saville case, like the abuse in the Scouts, like abuse in the Catholic Church"
    ..like abuse at the BBC...oh, wait...cut that bit...

    Why would you think cadets wouldn't mirror other youth groups (or places where youth were) of the time? Not sure why they'd be a special case that were immune from predatory peadophiles.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Of course the solution to all this nonsense is that only women should work with young people, because women are not abusers... oh, hang on a tick... yes they can be... Hmmm... lets just stop doing anything with young people at all.
    Ewan Scott

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