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Thread: Sexual abuse in cadets

  1. #31
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    I remember reading a story in the Guardian in December 2014 which covered most of the ground covered last night.

    A propagandists interpretation of the information could be that abuse compensation from the cadets is four times higher than the scouts despite them having only a fifth of the members.

    Is this because abuse is four times higher in the cadets or they are more forthcoming with compensation ?

    If they are more forthcoming is that because they don't draw funds from their insurers like the scouts and LEAs do ?

    (My maths is wrong isn't it? Four times more compensation payed out for only a fifth of the numbers would mean that abuse would be twenty times higher in the cadets wouldn't it ?)
    Last edited by Tony Ransley; 05-07-2017 at 04:44 PM.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
    I watched the Panorama programme last night. Hmmmm "I have absolutely no doubts that the abuse in the Cadets will mirror the other scandals like the Jimmy Saville case, like the abuse in the Scouts, like abuse in the Catholic Church". So said a man from the law firm which is representing the victims.
    Kerching, kerching. Cynical, Moi??

    Chris A.
    Yes the Jimmy Saville scandal. Another load of accusations with zero evidence.

    Trial by media.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    Yes the Jimmy Saville scandal. Another load of accusations with zero evidence.

    Trial by media.
    Actually there was evidence it just wasn't tested in court, so its another load of unproven accusations.

    Share your concerns about unproven accusations though.

  4. #34
    Senior Member ChrisA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    ..like abuse at the BBC...oh, wait...cut that bit...

    Why would you think cadets wouldn't mirror other youth groups (or places where youth were) of the time? Not sure why they'd be a special case that were immune from predatory peadophiles.
    I was in fact quoting the words of the lawyer employed by the group that is pushing a class action.

    Chris A.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    Actually there was evidence it just wasn't tested in court, so its another load of unproven accusations.

    Share your concerns about unproven accusations though.
    I just believe in innocent until proven guilty. I actually thought this concept was protected by law.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    I just believe in innocent until proven guilty. I actually thought this concept was protected by law.
    Not arguing with your defence of the concept, just pointing out there was plenty of evidence which unfortunately never got examined before a court.

  7. #37
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    I think its a wee bit naive to only accept a person is guilty of a thing if they've been so found in a court, especially if the person is no longer alive to be tried. Being dead does not mean accusations can't be investigated and guilt or innocence ascertained.

    We have all sorts of enquiries to figure this stuff out (for what that's worth), and sometimes, evidence of a cover up having taken place could also be construed as proof that a crime took place. Given the secretive, private nature of the topic in question, I imagine hearsay, people's accounts and circumstantial evidence (opportunity for example) is mostly what they've got to go on.

    I just get a wee bit cynical when the media go hell for leather after organisations (like Scouts or Cadets), I find myself taking the view that its individual criminal behaviour. Obviously if there is systemic failures, that needs to be looked at, but sometimes the default position from the media is; that Scouts/Cadets/etc are at fault - they ignore the notion that it may be an individual who was solely responsible the deed.

    I mean, what else are we supposed to do? The only way to absolutely guarantee kids aren't abused in youth organisations, is for those organisations to fold. The ne'er do wells will just to go back to growing creepy mustaches, and offering kids bon bons from the driver's window of their Ford Cortina. (It was always a Ford Cortina in the adverts on TV when I was a kid.)

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    I just believe in innocent until proven guilty. I actually thought this concept was protected by law.
    My understanding is that there are various things, such as posession of wild birds eggs or posession of firearms, where you are presumed guilty.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I just get a wee bit cynical when the media go hell for leather after organisations (like Scouts or Cadets), I find myself taking the view that its individual criminal behaviour. Obviously if there is systemic failures, that needs to be looked at, but sometimes the default position from the media is; that Scouts/Cadets/etc are at fault - they ignore the notion that it may be an individual who was solely responsible the deed.
    According to the article on the BBC site, one family reported it to their Cadet group and were discouraged from reporting it to the police. If the Cadets were discouraging parents from reporting abuse to the police and then failing to deal appropriately with the alleged perpetrator then this would clearly be a systemic failure. While it's easy to get cynical about the media attention, let's face it, many organisations have been pretty slow to act without that pressure.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    My understanding is that there are various things, such as posession of wild birds eggs or posession of firearms, where you are presumed guilty.
    I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of a strict liability offence.

    You are not presumed to be guilty. It just means there is no requirement to prove intent, the fact of the offence is enough on its own. It's like speeding in a motor vehicle, the offence is of being in control of a vehicle over the speed limit, it doesn't matter whether you meant to do it or not or what your excuse was. Whereas by comparison murder cannot be charged if the offender was not intending to kill and their actions could not reasonably be assumed to be likely to kill.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    My understanding is that there are various things, such as posession of wild birds eggs or posession of firearms, where you are presumed guilty.
    Eh? The burden of proof is always for the prosecution to take on.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingstonCubber View Post
    According to the article on the BBC site, one family reported it to their Cadet group and were discouraged from reporting it to the police. If the Cadets were discouraging parents from reporting abuse to the police and then failing to deal appropriately with the alleged perpetrator then this would clearly be a systemic failure. While it's easy to get cynical about the media attention, let's face it, many organisations have been pretty slow to act without that pressure.
    No. It is a few idiots. Not a systematic failure. A systematic failure would be a policy nationwide suggesting that any parent making accusations should be persuaded to keep it 'in house'.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    No. It is a few idiots. Not a systematic failure. A systematic failure would be a policy nationwide suggesting that any parent making accusations should be persuaded to keep it 'in house'.
    I disagree. A systemic failure is when an offence by one individual is compounded by the response of other members of that organisation. Some rare incidences may be considered primarily the fault of the individuals. When other members of the organisation cover up that abuse then that's clearly a wider problem - firstly because it prevents the victim getting justice, but also fails to protect other children from that individual.

    To suggest that systemic failure can only be the result of a nationwide policy is clearly ludicrous. A culture within an organisation which encourages members to protect the name of the organisation over the victims of abuse need not be a 'nationwide policy' to result in a systemic failure to protect children.

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  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    Not arguing with your defence of the concept, just pointing out there was plenty of evidence which unfortunately never got examined before a court.
    Sometimes evidence can be presented in court, there can even be admissions, but the technicalities of the law still fail to prove a case. I am aware of one such case where there was clear admission of actions, but the outcome was still not guilty. Sometimes the invidious Scottish option might be a choice the courts could take if it were allowed - Not Proven.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Last edited by Bushfella; 06-07-2017 at 07:02 AM.
    Ewan Scott

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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Sometimes evidence can be presented in court, there can even be admissions, but the technicalities of the law still fail to prove a case. I am aware of one such case where there was clear admission of actions, but the outcome was still not guilty. Sometimes the invidious Scottish option might be a choice the courts could take if it were allowed - Not Proven.
    No doubt you are correct Ewan not sure this happened in the Saville case thought.

    My only concern is not that there was historical sexual abuse in the MOD Cadets that possibility exists in every youth organisation, Except The Woodcraft Folk, but why the MOD has paid out twenty times more compensation than the scouts, either they do not have the same insurance hurdles as we do or there really has been twenty times more abuse in one organisation than the other.

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