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Thread: Sexual abuse in cadets

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Sexual abuse in cadets

    News article presumably heavily based on tonight's panorama...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40457123
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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    We had a pre-emptive letter from the sea cadets
    'Simba'

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    All opinions stated are my own.

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    Can't help but feel that this is just the Cadet's 'turn' at this... I begin to wonder at the motivation of these programs and news reports.

    I mean its horrible, it should absolutely be investigated and the people involved punished - it should go without saying... But it just seems to be a conveyor belt of youth related organisations coming under fire - and I suppose rightly so, but need it be done with such febrile clamour?

    I can't help but feel the motivation for doing so isn't as altruistic as the media that reports it wants us to think. It seems that in routing out and uncovering these crimes and abuses, (which absolutely needs to happen), we're also killing youth work.

    Not sure what the answer is... Or where the balance (if there is one) can be struck.

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    Senior Member CambridgeSkip's Avatar
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    Interesting table of stats in that article.

    Sea Cadets, 28 complaints, 28 referred to police, 28 volunteers dismissed.

    Compare that to the Army and Air cadets.

    Sea cadets, as I understand it, have a looser connection with the armed forces compared to other two.

    Anyway, in terms of it being the cadets "turn", possibly it is. But I think that what we are seeing here is the fact that there was a time when youth work, all of it, be that teaching, social care, church groups, scouts, cadets all of it, was used by those who would abuse children to gain access to them. I have little doubt that things are very different now but what we are seeing is the chickens coming home to roost from attitudes that pervaded 25 years ago or more.

    Maybe the media aren't motivated by doing good by I suspect we'll see plenty more of these reports before it's all over.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    But I think that what we are seeing here is the fact that there was a time when youth work, all of it, be that teaching, social care, church groups, scouts, cadets all of it, was used by those who would abuse children to gain access to them.
    And, of course, which isn't mentioned...the BBC (and ITV no doubt) were also used as a route to gain access to children by abusers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And while we're on the subject...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40480998

    No sign from what they say that the abuse took place in scouting, or to scouts of the time, so why mention it? (Rhetorical question, or rather, I know why, because it makes it of more prurient interest)
    Ian Wilkins
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    Senior Member CambridgeSkip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    And, of course, which isn't mentioned...the BBC (and ITV no doubt) were also used as a route to gain access to children by abusers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And while we're on the subject...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40480998

    No sign from what they say that the abuse took place in scouting, or to scouts of the time, so why mention it? (Rhetorical question, or rather, I know why, because it makes it of more prurient interest)
    To be honest I think it is perfectly reasonable to mention it, however uncomfortable it makes us.

    If someone was found guilty of fraud I'd think it reasonable to mention that they were a chartered accountant or a pension fund trustee even if the fraud wasn't connected with their position.

    If someone was found guilty of perjury I'd think it reasonable to mention they were a criminal barrister even if not connected with their position.

    And so on. These things do add to the story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    Anyway, in terms of it being the cadets "turn", possibly it is. But I think that what we are seeing here is the fact that there was a time when youth work, all of it, be that teaching, social care, church groups, scouts, cadets all of it, was used by those who would abuse children to gain access to them. I have little doubt that things are very different now but what we are seeing is the chickens coming home to roost from attitudes that pervaded 25 years ago or more.

    Maybe the media aren't motivated by doing good by I suspect we'll see plenty more of these reports before it's all over.
    No doubt...

    The thing is though, did we care less back then, or were we more trusting/gullible? Were people less humane?

    I do know the press is a lot more lascivious these days - its a lot less bothered about how it generates its circulation... And as a society we also seem to be a lot more mawkish and given to proxy outrage...

    It just seems (rightly or wrongly, I don't know) that the vast majority of people who work with kids are being tarred by the tiny minority - and conversely, that - in and of itself - is harming children as they grow up (albeit not as much as the abuse would... But you see what I mean...)

    Adults are often afraid to even approach kids these days.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    To be honest I think it is perfectly reasonable to mention it, however uncomfortable it makes us.
    Maybe that's it. It's just frustration on my part, feels like they're having a smear on all scout leaders by mentioning it in the headline. Why not "train guard found guilty of sexual abuse"? But yes, I still know why, because they can, and they think it's obvious line to be drawn. Mind you, maybe I'm missing a detail, but it would be surprising if any of the poor boys involved (or others that haven't come forward) weren't his scouts.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

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    Theere seems to be a lot of detail in this article, there the other reports over the last few years this detailed, which examples of people's stories?

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    Not quite related but https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...-son-f85l6789f. Seems to be that Andrew Carey is saying that it's the changing attitudes rather than the fact that abuse should be and should always have been considered disgusting, reported and the abuser dismissed. He sees his father as the victim
    'Simba'

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
    Theere seems to be a lot of detail in this article, there the other reports over the last few years this detailed, which examples of people's stories?
    I was going to suggest that, there's probably a lot there that they're not saying - that there might be a bit of a roiling mass of scandal just under the surface...

    But that would be wrong. When these things 'break open' of course its a scandal of sorts, but they make it seem like the whole of the organisation was riven with it - when it was a tiny minority of sociopathic adults... But they don't even pay lip service to that notion, presumably because it doesn't add to the story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I can't help but feel the motivation for doing so isn't as altruistic as the media that reports it wants us to think. It seems that in routing out and uncovering these crimes and abuses, (which absolutely needs to happen), we're also killing youth work.
    With regard to motivation it would be interesting to see how any legal representatives for the abused conduct themselves. Am I correct in thinking that if they take on a 'No Win No Fee' case they are awarded multiples of their actual costs if they win ?
    fine if your the MOD with hands in the taxpayers pockets not so good if you are a genuine charity.

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    I think there were some pretty telling comments in yesterday's Jersey report where there were references to a "Jersey way" which meant that the image of the island and its people was seen as more important than openly dealing with issues. Cynically I suspect that these sorts of attitudes probably prevailed in many communities (geographical or organisational) - and probably still would if it wasn't for the fact that now its more damaging to be seen shoving things under the carpet than dealing harshly with those at fault.

    As for Scouting - sadly it is still going on - Paul Cherrett in Bournemouth being the latest tale of shame - not least because TSA had heard concerns but left him in a position to abuse up to his final offences in 2016. They stopped him being a leader but left him with access to kids. He had a clean DBS at the time of his arrest. So I guess if these stories make us all a bit more alert and a bit more reasonably questioning of behaviour we see around us then its not such a bad thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    With regard to motivation it would be interesting to see how any legal representatives for the abused conduct themselves. Am I correct in thinking that if they take on a 'No Win No Fee' case they are awarded multiples of their actual costs if they win ?
    fine if your the MOD with hands in the taxpayers pockets not so good if you are a genuine charity.
    If by multiples you mean fractional multiples then yes - i.e. 20% mark up - not heard of anyone getting double their costs etc. Also with something like this you take on the case, do a lot of work which could potentially be for nothing if you don't end up with enough concrete evidence to either convince the other side to settle or win in court. All claimant lawyers would like to think they spot the duds before they even take them on - in reality there's a fair proportion which get some way in and then find out the information given at the start isn't going to stack up. Hence why the success fees are there. (In context they were allowed originally as a means of allowing access to justice for genuine claimants at a time when legal aid for personal injury cases was withdrawn - these sorts of cases would fall into that category).
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    I treat everything the media investigates with suspicion. They deserve no trust.

    This 'investigation' appears loaded if you ask me. It is all historic and impossible to prove so we must take the 'victims' word for it and cast these volunteers and their family into hell with no trial or right of reply.

    On one hand the headline suggests a cover up but when you read the article is says hundreds of reports have gone to the police with 99 volunteers dismissed. No mention of how many of the 99 were arrested or charged? Why? Throughout the piece only two cases have gone to court and been heard by trial. Both of which led to prison terms.

    Clearly the Law of the Land has proven there were and are victims. These victims need to be given the full support of the Cadets. But when I read about the Cadets covering things up again there is no evidence offered. Only opinion. What sort of parent would allow anyone to sweet talk them into not going to the police? This seems fishy to me.

    So I do accept there are victims within the cadets but I do not accept, based on what has been presented so far that there was any 'cover up' or that it was systematic.

    I will watch Panarama tonight with interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    I think there were some pretty telling comments in yesterday's Jersey report where there were references to a "Jersey way" which meant that the image of the island and its people was seen as more important than openly dealing with issues. Cynically I suspect that these sorts of attitudes probably prevailed in many communities (geographical or organisational) - and probably still would if it wasn't for the fact that now its more damaging to be seen shoving things under the carpet than dealing harshly with those at fault.
    I don't really agree with that.

    Even if there are people who think that, they're still (hopefully) in the minority. Its the same argument that tries to say all Scout Leaders are suspect because one or two out of every 1000 (or whatever) might be predatory paedophiles.

    Sure, you get people that might say its the 'Jersey way' or whatever, but they're still a tiny minority.

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